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Here we can post what the early church father's (up to 300 AD) description of the trinity was and see if it is different than how it is taught today.
This is to be just a collection of descriptions and not really to carry on a debate.
Feel free to add the early church father's descriptions as you come across them.
Thanks!
Athenagoras, the Athenian
The Trinity
10. I have sufficiently shown that we are not atheists since we acknowledge one God, who is uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable. He is grasped only by mind and intelligence, and surrounded by light, beauty, spirit, and indescribable power. By him the universe was created through his Word, was set in order, and is held together. , for we also think that God has a Son.
Let no one think it stupid for me to say that God has a Son. For we do not think of God the Father or of the Son in the way of the poets, who weave their myths by showing that gods are no better than men. But the Son of God is his Word in idea and in actuality; for by him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. And since the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Son of God is the mind and Word of the Father.
But if, owing to your sharp intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire further what is meant by the Son, I shall briefly explain. He is the first offspring of the Father. I do not mean that he was created, for, since God is eternal mind, he had his Word within himself from the beginning, being eternally wise. Rather did the Son come forth from God to give form and actuality to all material things, which essentially have a sort of formless nature and inert quality, the heavier particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit agrees with this opinion when he says, “The Lord created me as the first of his ways, for his works.”
Indeed we say that the Holy Spirit himself, who inspires those who utter prophecies, is an effluence from God, flowing from him and returning like a ray of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear those called atheists who admit God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and who teach their unity in power and their distinction in rank? Nor is our theology confined to these points. We affirm, too, a crowd of angels and ministers, whom God, the maker and creator of the world, appointed to their several tasks through his Word. He gave them charge over the good order of the universe, over the elements, the heavens, the world, and all it contains.Kathi, If you want to search the early writtings IMO it's best to only stay with the EARLIEST writings, before they started changing their views.
So that's volume one.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history….renaeus
I'll see what I can find in some of those. I'll go through Barnabas and Clement which were the earliest.
Kathi
the early trinity was apostate,the later trinity was the same apostate.
God is the father;no beginning;The son as a beginning;they are both spirits thats what scriptures are telling;so the holy is from God and it act in two direction;one.in truth,second in the will (power) of God,and for those two reasons the holy spirit of God is not and never was a being.do you know what HOLY means???
Pierre
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 07 2010,16:05) Kathi, If you want to search the early writtings IMO it's best to only stay with the EARLIEST writings, before they started changing their views. So that's volume one.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history….renaeus
I'll see what I can find in some of those. I'll go through Barnabas and Clement which were the earliest.
Hi Karmarie,
I had just come across this guy for another reason and saw this quote. I didn't set out to begin the topic till I found this quote. It would be good to go with volume one but I am also interested in the first few centuries of church history. The earlier the better, so it would be great for you to add whatever you come across.
Thanks!Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2010,20:47) Pierre,
What do you think the early trinity was? Yes, I know what holy means.
Kathido you know what true worship is?? and to whom you have to given it ??
no need for trinity
the word stink.well i look for it ,i could not find it in scriptures.
Pierre
The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus Aprox 130 AD
Chapter VII.-The Manifestation of Christ.
“For, as I said, this was no mere earthly invention which was delivered to them, nor is it a mere human system of opinion, which they judge it right to preserve so carefully, nor has a dispensation of mere human mysteries been committed to them, but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts.
He did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, or angel, or ruler, or any one of those who bear sway over earthly things, or one of those to whom the government of things in the heavens has been entrusted,
But the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe-from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed -whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject-the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein-fire, air, and the abyss-the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between.
This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness.
As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God. As calling us He sent Him, not as vengefully pursuing us; as loving us He sent Him, not as judging us.
For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing? … Do you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded to deny the Lord, and yet not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest? This does not seem to be the work of man: this is the power of God; these are the evidences of His manifestation”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2010,15:53) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 07 2010,16:05) Kathi, If you want to search the early writtings IMO it's best to only stay with the EARLIEST writings, before they started changing their views. So that's volume one.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history….renaeus
I'll see what I can find in some of those. I'll go through Barnabas and Clement which were the earliest.
Hi Karmarie,
I had just come across this guy for another reason and saw this quote. I didn't set out to begin the topic till I found this quote. It would be good to go with volume one but I am also interested in the first few centuries of church history. The earlier the better, so it would be great for you to add whatever you come across.
Thanks!
Hi. I'm looking. I have a new interest in the Early Writing's again. The EARLIEST writings that is. As long as I stick to them and not go wondering off reading other things which is what I did last time, I should be OK.Irenaeus Aprox 170 AD.
Book Ihttp://www.biblestudytools.com/history….-i.html
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
“The Church, though dispersed through out the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith:
[She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations( of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all”
Chapter XXII.-Deviations of Heretics from the Truth.
“The rule of truth which we hold, is, that there is one God Almighty, who made all things by His Word, and fashioned and formed, out of that which had no existence, all things which exist.
Thus saith the Scripture, to that effect “By the Word of the Lord were the heavens established, and all the might of them, by the spirit of His mouth.” And again, “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.”
There is no exception or deduction stated; but the Father made all things by Him, whether visible or invisible, objects of sense or of intelligence, temporal, on account of a certain character given them, or eternal; and these eternal things He did not make by angels, or by any powers separated from His Ennoea. For God needs none of all these things, but is He who, by His Word and Spirit, makes, and disposes, and governs all things, and commands all things into existence,-He who formed the world (for the world is of all),-He who fashioned man,-He [who] is the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, above whom there is no other God, nor initial principle, nor power, nor pleroma,-He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we shall prove.
Holding, therefore, this rule, we shall easily show, notwithstanding the great variety and multitude of their opinions, that these men have deviated from the truth; for almost all the different sects of heretics admit that there is one God; but then, by their pernicious doctrines, they change [this truth into error], even as the Gentiles do through idolatry,-thus proving themselves ungrateful to Him that created them.
Moreover, they despise the workmanship of God, speaking against their own salvation, becoming their own bitterest accusers, and being false witnesses [against themselves]. Yet, reluctant as they may be, these men shall one day rise again in the flesh, to confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead; but they shall not be numbered among the righteous on account of their unbelief”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2010,13:47) Pierre,
What do you think the early trinity was? Yes, I know what holy means.
KathiChristians were persecuted, tortured, and killed, by the Romans, because, they would not worship, and sacrifice to the Emperor.
In 312 AD, Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians.
In 321 AD, he changed worship service from Saturday, to Sunday.
In 324 Ad, he declared the new religion, Christianity, the religion of his empire, it became “universal”, Catholic; referred to from “”then”” on as “THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”.
In 325 AD, he presided over the “FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA”; over 300 bishops attended; after a long debate, it was Constantine who decided that God was a “TRINITY”. Influenced without a doubt by a book, written by a man called “Tertullian”.
Theologians today claim that his book, “Adversus Praxean”, in which he explains the “trinity”, was his “greatest” contribution to theology.
Tertullian was born a pagan in 155 AD, he became a Christian in 193 AD, in his later years he left the church, he died by 230 AD.
“HE”, you could say, was the earliest of your church “fathers”, very credible source, I say! right?Georg
Paul said that after his time here that men would introduce false doctrines even from our own number.
So I guess that even some early stuff could be wrong.
We need to (as with any writing) compare that which is written to scripture and Christ's words.My take.
God the Father, his son, and spirit are mentioned. But compiling these 3 references into one God is wrong just as it is wrong to compile any other mention of three into a Trinity. There are a reasonable amount of scriptures that refer to three, e.g., Peter, James, John. (There are about 10 scriptures that refer to these 3 disciples.)
Matthew 17:1
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.So why would anyone want to make them into a Trinity?
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 08 2010,15:34) http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/early-church-fathers/ante-nicene/vol-1-apostolic-with-justin-martyr-irenaeus/mathetes/epistle-of-mathetes-to-diognetus.html The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus Aprox 130 AD
Chapter VII.-The Manifestation of Christ.
“For, as I said, this was no mere earthly invention which was delivered to them, nor is it a mere human system of opinion, which they judge it right to preserve so carefully, nor has a dispensation of mere human mysteries been committed to them, but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts.
He did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, or angel, or ruler, or any one of those who bear sway over earthly things, or one of those to whom the government of things in the heavens has been entrusted,
But the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe-from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed -whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject-the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein-fire, air, and the abyss-the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between.
This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness.
As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God. As calling us He sent Him, not as vengefully pursuing us; as loving us He sent Him, not as judging us.
For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing? … Do you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded to deny the Lord, and yet not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest? This does not seem to be the work of man: this is the power of God; these are the evidences of His manifestation”.
Yes Shimmer…good! That is what I am talking about for this thread.So, Mathetes here signifies:
God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisibleThe Word whom He had sent, the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe-from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed -whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject-the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein-fire, air, and the abyss-the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between.
This quote from Mathetes does not mention the Holy Spirit and I would like to know how he describes the Holy Spirit.
But we see here that the Word that was sent was also the Creator and Fashioner of all things and the one who sent Him
is God Himself, almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible. Both are called 'Creator.'Quote (Baker @ Dec. 08 2010,18:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2010,13:47) Pierre,
What do you think the early trinity was? Yes, I know what holy means.
KathiChristians were persecuted, tortured, and killed, by the Romans, because, they would not worship, and sacrifice to the Emperor.
In 312 AD, Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians.
In 321 AD, he changed worship service from Saturday, to Sunday.
In 324 Ad, he declared the new religion, Christianity, the religion of his empire, it became “universal”, Catholic; referred to from “”then”” on as “THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”.
In 325 AD, he presided over the “FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA”; over 300 bishops attended; after a long debate, it was Constantine who decided that God was a “TRINITY”. Influenced without a doubt by a book, written by a man called “Tertullian”.
Theologians today claim that his book, “Adversus Praxean”, in which he explains the “trinity”, was his “greatest” contribution to theology.
Tertullian was born a pagan in 155 AD, he became a Christian in 193 AD, in his later years he left the church, he died by 230 AD.
“HE”, you could say, was the earliest of your church “fathers”, very credible source, I say! right?Georg
Hi Georg,
Did you know that Justin, the Martyr, mentions that the Christians were worshiping on Sunday and he lived from 103-165 AD. That was long before Constantine.See here, third post from the top regarding Justin:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….65;st=0
Also, did you know that the Christians were also persecuted for calling themselves Christian? I read about Pliny who was an officer that followed orders from the emporer Trajan. Pliny captured Christians and persecuted them. I will paste something he said about this. Please note the bolded portion:
BOOK TEN
LETTER 96TO THE EMPEROR TRAJAN
IT is a rule, Sir, which I inviolably observe, to refer myself to you in all my doubts; for who is more capable of guiding my uncertainty or informing my ignorance? Having never been present at any trials of the Christians, I am unacquainted with the method and limits to be observed either in examining or punishing them. Whether any difference is to be made on account of age, or no distinction allowed between the youngest and the adult; whether repentance admits to a pardon, or if a man has been once a Christian it avails him nothing to recant; whether the mere profession of Christianity, albeit without crimes, or only the crimes associated therewith are punishable�in all these points I am greatly doubtful.
In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel no doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others also possessed with the same infatuation, but being citizens of Rome, I directed them to be carried thither.
These accusations spread (as is usually the case) from the mere fact of the matter being investigated and several forms of the mischief came to light. A placard was put up, without any signature, accusing a large number of persons by name. Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of tbe Gods, and who finally cursed Christ�none of which acts, it is said, those who are really Christians can be forced into performing�these I thought it proper to discharge. Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twentyfive years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the Gods, and cursed Christ.
They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food�but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I judged it so much the more necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.
found here: http://www.vroma.org/~hwalker/Pliny/Pliny10-096-E.html
Does that interest you?
Regarding Tertullian, can you find his description of what he calls a trinity? I have read his writings and I do believe that his idea of a trinity has to do with the three names relating to God but not as three names representing three equal persons always existing each as God within a trinity being.
If you are interested in what he thought of as a trinity you can find his writings here in volume IV.
Kathi
do you have not enough with Gene ,and EDJ,Adam,WJ,they all believe what is not in scriptures that you have to go and dig for more,
you only will find variations of what some still believe today;
to me the real question would be and this is for you Kathi;why are you running away from scriptures??
and in General why would someone knowingly teach and preach thing in direct contradiction to scriptures???Pierre
Shimmer,
No problem…I am kinda busy myself. We just bought a new puppy for my Mom and I have a week to train her before I give my Mom her new puppy. So far so good
Hi Kathi I'm really sorry I just have been distracted with other thing's. Good luck with the puppy Kathi. I'm using my old username because I wanted edit rights again. OK so wait and I will try to find something. If I do I will put it here. I never found anything about the Holy Spirit in 'Mathetes'.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 08 2010,19:05) Paul said that after his time here that men would introduce false doctrines even from our own number.
So I guess that even some early stuff could be wrong.
We need to (as with any writing) compare that which is written to scripture and Christ's words.My take.
God the Father, his son, and spirit are mentioned. But compiling these 3 references into one God is wrong just as it is wrong to compile any other mention of three into a Trinity. There are a reasonable amount of scriptures that refer to three, e.g., Peter, James, John. (There are about 10 scriptures that refer to these 3 disciples.)
Matthew 17:1
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.So why would anyone want to make them into a Trinity?
Hi t8,
I agree, just because three names are mentioned together does not automatically mean that it means anything significant. It is the word “of” in Son OF God and Spirit OF God that seems significantly connecting the two to the one God, the Father. I think it is obvious that the Father is connected to His Spirit and His Son in a way that all are required for our creation and salvation. I have no problem as seeing them all connected and representing the fullness of the one God, the Father.
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