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Quote (AndrewAD @ Sep. 30 2012,09:49) Quote (AndrewAD @ Sep. 30 2012,22:11) Quote He chose to limit Himself, that is not a defect but an act of heroism.
Kathi is it really that heroic or that great of an accomplishment if a God become man did what Jesus the man actually did?
Many gods have done heroic things in the form of man or so many of the ancients believed.So the God Jesus left glory, assumed human flesh,did some miracles,pretended to trust in another God,which he really didn't need to do,died a martyrs death,raised his body and returned to glory where he'd always been:it's a nice story but is it really that big of a deal for a God to do this?
You think that by limiting himself it means he chose to trust in his fellow God? Remember they are co-equals,so as God and immutable and unchanging one is truly never greater than the other.Yet one chose to be less than the other-humbled himself-but the reality is one can't be less than the other.So how can one true God be subject to another true God? The only way is if one chooses to pretend to be subject to the other.So when Jesus says “my Father is greater than I” that can in no way be true except according to a script.In the same way when he says”I ascend to my Father and your Father”,that can't really be true.The Father is just a role another co-equal God is playing.The reality is Jesus doesn't have a father and the Father doesn't have a son since they are both uncreated eternal Gods.Father and Son don't really exist except in name like Forrest Gump doesn't really exist but Tom Hanks really exists.So just who are these gods behind the scenes?
And who was it that died on the cross? did anyone really die at all? If the only true God can't die,and the other only true God can't die, and the other only true God can't die,then who did? According to the doctrine of the trinity I would have to say God the Son is the one who pretended to humble himself and also pretended to die.
Blessings and peace to you Kathi,
I was hoping to show to you by this little illustration how that by making Jesus equal to His Father what it really does in effect is make them both out to be imposters.It really makes them untrue and therefore the gospel and whole bible untrue.
I know it's caused me much confusion through the years and have gone many years without reading the bible even when I was going to church.I praise God now because I know He is being gracious to me.I know in my heart He's shown me this light.I certainly don't pretend to know much or anything like I ought to know but believe I'm learning.It's only in His Light that we see light and Jesus is really the Light of the world,the Chosen One,the One foreordained by God from the beginning.1Pet1:20
I hope you know that I'm not attacking you but in a sense I am attacking a belief system that I once held dear.I believe it really does blind and hinder Christians and gives the world more cause to ridicule Christ and his church.I'm sure you've probably heard the jokes about God committing suicide;these use to really bother me but in a sense I never could really refute them since the doctrine is truly illogical and nonsense.
Jesus considered not the idea of being equal with God,for He knew that would be robbery.He never was equal and never considered it.Satan did consider it and so did Adam and Eve but our Saviour Jesus never did.Jesus had only one true God and I know He came to show us and bring us that One true God,His Father and our Father.
In Christs Love-Andrew
Hi AndrewAD,
Thank you for your posts and I do not feel attacked by you, don't worry. Some on here do come across that way, but you don't. I have developed a rather thick skin by knowing a thin skin is a spirit of fear much of the time and that spirit of fear is not of God.I think that you need to know that I consider myself an 'early trinitarian' one that believes in the Father, Son and Spirit as one compound unity of the highest authority, as two persons and their spirits united as one spirit to be their omnipresence. I believe in the Nicene Creed. I haven't been given the understanding of three persons as one being which some people think the trinity expresses. People express the trinity in different ways. I could agree with the phrase 'three in one' because I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and that would make three and I believe they are united as my utmost authority, therefore three in one is appropriate.
Anyway, I prefer to say that I am a Christian and not get into labels beyond that. So, I will address your post as a Christian.
This could take some time
you asked:
Quote Kathi is it really that heroic or that great of an accomplishment if a God become man did what Jesus the man actually did? Yes…if you think otherwise you simply lack the perspective of lowering yourself to such a degree as He did and also lack the perspective of how wonderful the glory was that He had before He gave it up. As a slight and lacking example, would it be heroic of you if you became a worm for 33 1/2 years in order to save the rest of the worms from complete destruction?
Quote Many gods have done heroic things in the form of man or so many of the ancients believed. They also did many corrupt and immoral things. Jesus never did.
Quote So the God Jesus left glory, assumed human flesh,did some miracles,pretended to trust in another God,which he really didn't need to do,died a martyrs death,raised his body and returned to glory where he'd always been:it's a nice story but is it really that big of a deal for a God to do this? Jesus always trusted in His Father. They are interdependent, not independent of each other.
What you wrote there sounds like something that I can imagine satan saying. Be careful. Don't listen to satan's lies.
Quote You think that by limiting himself it means he chose to trust in his fellow God? No, He always trusted in God the Father yet He was always capable of all things. Again, they are interdependent and always have been.
Quote Remember they are co-equals,so as God and immutable and unchan
ging one is truly never greater than the other.They are equal in attributes of nature but one was within the other as an offspring. In the manner of a relationship, the Father is greater naturally than the Son.
Quote Yet one chose to be less than the other-humbled himself-but the reality is one can't be less than the other. Again, the Son was less than the Father in regards to relationship but equal in attributes. So the reality is that one is less than the other in a sense and equal in another sense.
Quote So how can one true God be subject to another true God? One is the Father of the other. The Son is subject to His Father. That is a sign of His perfection, not a weakness.
Quote The only way is if one chooses to pretend to be subject to the other. So when Jesus says “my Father is greater than I” that can in no way be true except according to a script. Again, something satan would say. Addressed above.
Quote In the same way when he says”I ascend to my Father and your Father”,that can't really be true.The Father is just a role another co-equal God is playing. It IS true though. The Son came from within the Father as an offspring. He was eternally within the Father till He was begotten before creation.
Quote The reality is Jesus doesn't have a father and the Father doesn't have a son since they are both uncreated eternal Gods. Not if one was eternally within the other as an offspring.
Quote Father and Son don't really exist except in name like Forrest Gump doesn't really exist but Tom Hanks really exists.So just who are these gods behind the scenes? The Father and the Son really do exist, both with the nature of God and both eternally.
Quote And who was it that died on the cross? Jesus' flesh died just like man's flesh dies.
Quote did anyone really die at all? Absolutely!
Quote If the only true God can't die,and the other only true God can't die, and the other only true God can't die,then who did? According to the doctrine of the trinity I would have to say God the Son is the one who pretended to humble himself and also pretended to die. God can't die, that is why God the Son had to become man and put on flesh in order that He could die like man.
No one pretended to die, the flesh of Christ truly did die…the heart stopped beating, the lungs stopped breathing, etc.
Now your next post:
Quote I was hoping to show to you by this little illustration how that by making Jesus equal to His Father what it really does in effect is make them both out to be imposters.It really makes them untrue and therefore the gospel and whole bible untrue. You may have been hoping to show that but it really just showed your lack of understanding as I have attempted to show you. No offense intended.
Quote I know it's caused me much confusion through the years and have gone many years without reading the bible even when I was going to church.I praise God now because I know He is being gracious to me.I know in my heart He's shown me this light.I certainly don't pretend to know much or anything like I ought to know but believe I'm learning.It's only in His Light that we see light and Jesus is really the Light of the world,the Chosen One,the One foreordained by God from the beginning.1Pet1:20 He was the Light begotten before creation, the messiah was one of the roles that was foreordained for Him to take from the beginning.
We are all still learning, Andrew, welcome to the club
.Quote I hope you know that I'm not attacking you but in a sense I am attacking a belief system that I once held dear.I believe it really does blind and hinder Christians and gives the world more cause to ridicule Christ and his church. As I have said, I don't feel attacked by you. I think that you are attacking the body of Christ who agree in the Nicene Creed because you misunderstand scriptures. You need to attack your own misunderstanding.
Quote I'm sure you've probably heard the jokes about God committing suicide;these use to really bother me but in a sense I never could really refute them since the doctrine is truly illogical and nonsense. Only when you misunderstand it.
Quote Jesus considered not the idea of being equal with God,for He knew that would be robbery.He never was equal and never considered it.Satan did consider it and so did Adam and Eve but our Saviour Jesus never did.Jesus had only one true God and I know He came to show us and bring us that One true God,His Father and our Father. Again, misunderstanding of scripture on your part. Jesus did not cling to being treated as He should in order that He could become the kinsman redeemer. He had to become even lower than the angels to become man in order to do that.
God bless you too Andrew!
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2012,15:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2012,12:03) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2012,00:27) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2012,21:58) Pierre,
Christ emptied Himself before He became flesh. It doesn't tell us what He emptied Himself of but we are told that He hoped to receive back the glory that He had shared with His Father before the foundation of the world. He emptied Himself of whatever was necessary to become a man. He didn't stop being Himself though, He just emptied Himself, of what exactly, we don't know.He had powers of His own, He just refrained from using them in order to be like regular men who were dependent on the power of God in heaven.
KQuote He had powers of His own, He just refrained from using them in order to be like regular men who were dependent on the power of God in heaven. this is your personal opinion
And scripture!
kwhat scriptures???
What part do you need scriptures for specifically, Pierre?Quote
Kathi is it really that heroic or that great of an accomplishment if a God become man did what Jesus the man actually did?Yes…if you think otherwise you simply lack the perspective of lowering yourself to such a degree as He did and also lack the perspective of how wonderful the glory was that He had before He gave it up. As a slight and lacking example, would it be heroic of you if you became a worm for 33 1/2 years in order to save the rest of the worms from complete destruction?
Hi Kathi and thanks for your response.After reading all you say I see how we understand many things in a similar way only with some slight differences.And thanks for your clarification of your understanding of the trinity and how most people may see it somewhat differently and I need to keep that in mind.I was and am going off what I've learned of it in my past and recent studies which is the basic hardline creedal Catholic/Calvinist teaching.
As far as to my statement above I've come to understand more that what Jesus did on earth he did as a true man and not as a God-man as to the hypostatic-union 100%God and 100% man.I don't agree with what I see the creeds as saying on this point.
And also I no longer believe in an incarnation.I see Christ as always existing in the form of the Word in the sense of Gods predetermined plan or purpose for redemption.He was always in the bosom of the Father and the origin,beginning or reason for God's creation.In that sense God made the world through or by Him and He is rightly the Alpha and Omega.1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I understand that when the Word became flesh is when Christs actual person came into existence.I see the Word as becoming flesh and not assuming flesh.Thus the word became flesh and we beheld His glory,as of the only begotten of the Father.And no man hath seen God at any time but the only begotten son hath revealed Him.I see Jesus as begotten when he was conceived and born and was called the Son of God.Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the [a]holy Child shall be called the Son of God.-NASB I don't see any scripture advocating begotten before time other than in foreordination.So Christ didn't draw upon a past life in heaven but rather grew in wisdom and knowledge and knew at a young age he was the Son of God.This seems to be in line with all the prophecies of the OT from the beginning such as the seed of the woman Gen3:15
I realize some of the things I said may have sounded crude but I said it like that to make a point.Perhaps I could've said it better but I have heard preachers talk on the Trinity and say things like the three beings had a council in heaven and decided who would be Father,Son and Holy Ghost.Some do advocate the role playing I spoke of and this is the way I understand the teaching to actually be.I find it strange,evil and foreign to scripture.I certainly no longer believe in three Gods.I see it as a real deviation from scripture.
But I do appreciate this site,it's done me a lot of good and you seem like a sweetheart and that's why I didn't want you to think I was attacking you personally.God bless you real good!
Andrew,
Well, we are far apart in our beliefs, unfortunately. The Bible is clear on the pre-existence of the Son of God, the incarnation, and the deity of the Son of God, imo. The plan you speak of that was made from the foundation of the world is the plan of the Son becoming the Messiah…a man to save men as their kinsman Redeemer.I have found it very interesting what the early church fathers taught and even some extra-Biblical historical accounts of Peter, what he said about Jesus and what he did. Also, there is the whole truth that the Son was the firstborn of/over all creation and the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father.
For instance, read an historical document that was written about Peter (Simon Cephas) during one of his trips to Rome:
From the ancient Syriac documents:
The Teaching of Simon Cephas in the City of Rome (who we know as 'Peter' the disciple):In the third(4) year of Claudius Caesar, Simon Cephas departed from Antioch to go to Rome. And as he passed on he preached in the divers countries the word of our Lord. And, when he had nearly arrived there,(5) many had heard of it and went out to meet him, and the whole church received him with great joy. And some of the princes of the city, wearers of the imperial headbands,(6) came to him, that they might see him and hear his word. And, when the whole city was gathered together about him, he stood up to speak to them, and to show them the preaching of his doctrine, of what sort it was. And he began to speak to them thus:-
Men, people of Rome, saints of all Italy, hear ye that which I say to you. This day I preach and proclaim Jesus the Son of God, who came down from heaven, and became man, and was with us as one of ourselves, and wrought marvellous mighty-works and signs and wonders before us, and before all the Jews that are in the land of Palestine. And you yourselves also heard of those things which He did: because they came to Him from other countries also, on account of the fame of His healing and the report of the marvellous help He gave;(7) and whosoever drew near to Him was healed by His word. And, inasmuch as He was God, at the same time that He healed He also forgave sins: for His healing, which was open to view, bore witness of His hidden forgiveness, that it was real and trustworthy. For this Jesus did the prophets announce in their mysterious sayings, as they were looking forward to see Him and to hear His word: Him who was with His Father from eternity and from everlasting; God, who was hidden in the height, and appeared in the depth; the glorious Son, who was from His Progenitor, and is to be glorified, together with His Father, and His divine Spirit, and the terrible power of His dominion. And He was crucified of His own will by the hands of sinners, and was taken up to His Father, even as I and my companions saw. And He is about to come again, in His own glory and that of His holy angels, even as we heard Him say to us. For we cannot say anything which was not heard by us from Him, neither do we write in the book of His Gospel anything which He Himself did not say to us: because this word is spoken in order that the mouth of liars may be shut, in the day when men shall give an account of idle words at the place of judgment.
Moreover, because we were catchers of fish,(8) and not skilled in books, therefore did He also say to us: “I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you that which ye know not; “for it is by His gift that we speak those things which ye hear. And, further, by it we bring aid to the sick, and healing to the diseased: that by the hearing of His word and by the aid of His power ye may believe in Christ, that He is God, the Son of God; and may be delivered from the service of bondage, and may worship Him and His Father, and glorify His divine Spirit. For when we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son also with Him; and when we worship the Son, we worship the Father also with Him; and when we confess the Spirit, we confess the Father also and the Son: because in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit, were we commanded to baptize those who believe, that they may live for ever.
Flee therefore from the words of the wisdom of this world, in which there is no profit, and draw near to those which are true and faithful, and acceptable before God; whose reward also is laid up in store, and whose recompense standeth sure. Now, too,(9) the light has arisen on the creation, and the world has obtained the eyes, of the mind, that every man may see and understand that it is not fit that creatures should be worshipped instead of the Creator, nor together with the Creator: because everything which is a creature is made to be a worshipper of its Maker, and is not to be worshipped like its Creator. But this One who came to us is God, the Son of God, in His own nature, notwithstanding that He mingled(10) His Godhead with our manhood, in order that He might renew our manhood by the aid of His Godhead. And on this account it is right that we should worship Him, because He is to be worshipped together with His Father, and that we should not worship creatures, who were created for the worship of the Creator. For He is Himself the God of truth and verity; He is Himself from before all worlds and creatures; He is Himself the veritable Son, and the glorious fruit(11) which is from the exalted Father.
But ye see the wonderful works which accompany and follow these words. One would not credit it: the time lo! is short since He ascended to His Father, and see how His Gospel has winged its flight through the whole creation-that thereby it may be known and believed that He Himself is the Creator of creatures, and that by His bidding creatures subsist. And, whereas ye saw the sun become darkened at His death, ye yourselves also are witnesses. The earth, moreover, quaked when He was slain, and the veil was rent at His death. And concerning these things the governor Pilate also was witness: for he himself sent and made them known to Caesar,(12) and these things, and more than these, were read before him, and before the princes of your city. And on this account Caesar was angry against Pilate because he had unjustly listened to the persuasion of the Jews; and for this reason he sent and took away from him the authority which he had given to him. And this same thing was published and known in all the dominion of the Romans. That, therefore, which Pilate saw and made known to Caesar and to your honourable senate, the same do I preach and declare, as do also my fellow-apostles. And ye know that Pilate could not have written to the imperial government of that which did not take place and which he had not seen with his own eyes; but that which did take place and was actually done-this it was that he wrote and made known. Moreover, the watchers of the sepulchre also were witnesses of those things which took place there: they became as dead men; and, when those watchers were questioned before Pilate, they confessed before him how large a bribe the chief-priests of the Jews had given them, so that they might say that we His disciples had stolen the corpse of Christ. Lo! then, ye have heard many things; and moreover, if ye be not willing to be persuaded by those things which ye have heard, be at least persuaded by the mighty-works which ye see, which are done by His name.
Let not Simon the sorcerer delude you by semblances which are not realities, which he exhibits to you, as to men who have no understanding, who know not how to discern that which they see and hear. Send, therefore, and fetch him to where all your city is assembled together, and choose you some sign for us to do before you; and, whichever ye see do that same sign, it will be your part to believe in it.
And immediately they sent and fetched Simon the sorcerer;(13) and the men who were adherents of his opinion said to him: As a man concerning whom we have confidence that there is power in
thee to do anything whatsoever,(14) do thou some sign before us all, and let this Simon the Galilaean, who preaches Christ, see it. And, whilst they were thus speaking to him, there happened to be passing along a dead person, a son of one of those who were chiefs and men of note and renown among them. And all of them, as they were assembled together, said to him: Whichever of you shall restore to life this dead person, he is true, and to be believed in and received, and we will all follow him in whatsoever he saith to us. And they said to Simon the sorcerer: Because thou wast here before Simon the Galilaean, and we knew thee before him, exhibit thou first the power which accompanieth thee.(15)Then Simon reluctantly drew near to the dead person; and they set down the bier before him; and he looked to the fight hand and to the left, and gazed up into heaven, saying many words: some of them he uttered aloud, and some of them secretly and not aloud. And he delayed a long while, and nothing took place, and nothing was done, and the dead person was lying upon his bier.
And forthwith Simon Cephas drew near boldly towards the dead man, and cried aloud before all the assembly which was standing there: In the name of Jesus Christ, whom the Jews crucified at Jerusalem, and whom we preach, rise up thence. And as soon as the word of Simon was spoken the dead man came to life and rose up from the bier.
And all the people saw and marvelled; and they said to Simon: Christ, whom thou preachest, is true. And many cried out, and said: Let Simon the sorcerer and the deceiver of us all be stoned. But Simon, by reason that every one was running to see the dead man that was come to life, escaped from them from one street to another and from house to house, and fell not into their hands on that day.
But the whole city took hold of Simon Cephas, and they received him gladly and affectionately; and he ceased not from doing signs and wonders in the name of Christ; and many believed in him. Cuprinus,(16) moreover, the father of him that was restored to life, took Simon with him to his house, and entertained him in a suitable manner, while he and all his household believed in Christ, that He is the Son of the living God. And many of the Jews and of the pagans became disciples there. And, when there was great rejoicing at his teaching, he built churches there, in Rome and in the cities round about, and in all the villages of the people of Italy; and he served there in the rank of the Superintendence of Rulers twenty-five years.(17)
And after these years Nero Caesar seized him and shut him up in prison. And he knew that he would crucify him; so he called Ansus,(18) the deacon, and made him bishop in his stead in Rome. And these things did Simon himself speak; and moreover also the rest, the other things which he had in charge, he commanded Ansus to teach before the people, saying to him: Beside the New Testament and the Old let there not be read before the people(19) anything else:(20) which is not right.
And, when Caesar had commanded that Simon should be crucified with his head downwards, as he himself had requested of Caesar, and that Paul's head should be taken off, there was great commotion among the people, and bitter distress in all the church, seeing that they were deprived of the sight of the apostles. And Isus the guide arose and took up their bodies by night, and buried them with great honour, and there came to be a gathering-place there for many.
And at that very time, as if by a righteous judgment, Nero abandoned his empire and fled, and there was a cessation for a little while from the persecution which Nero Caesar had raised against them. And many years after the great coronation(21) of the apostles, who had departed out of the world, while ordination to the priesthood was proceeding both in all Rome and in all Italy, it happened then that there was a great famine in the city of Rome.(22)
Here endeth the teaching of Simon Cephas.
Found here: http://www.studylight.org/his….146.htm
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2012,21:40) Pierre,
No I haven't gone blind. What part of my 'opinion' do you need scriptures for?
kthis one
Quote He had powers of His own, He just refrained from using them in order to be like regular men who were dependent on the power of God in heaven. Pierre,
This article is good for answering your questions and has plenty of scripture to back up what is said on the matter:
http://www.ucg.org/booklet….n-beingKathi,
My first question about this ancient Syriac document is if it was found with one of St.Peters teeth or an angel feather to help authenticate it.
Its interesting how the author uses Petrine and Johannine thought coupled with liturgical and much later theological expressions.Clearly something Peter would never preach.Compare with Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: or
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Christ was always preached as a man,the Christ,Lord and Saviour and never as God in the bible.And it's no surprise to find the words of the Eastern orthodox liturgy in this supposed sermon for they claim their liturgy and traditions such as icons and the worship of Mary,saints and angels all came from the apostles.And it's interesting how all these traditions from the apostles all came about after the Nicene creed.Jesus declared as God=Mother of God=saints and icons and statues;simply a natural progression.
And one of their beloved saints John of Damascus used this argument in favor of icons…
John replied to the criticism of it being unscriptural by admitting the fact, and adding that you will not find in scripture the Trinity, the homousian or the two natures of Christ either. But we know those doctrines are true. And so, having acknowledged that icons, the Trinity and the incarnation are innovations, John goes on to urge his reader to hold fast to them as venerable traditions delivered to us by the Fathers… a very good saint indeed
If you ask a man who is blind if he is blind he will say he is.
If you ask a man who has made himself blind and God has turned him over to his chosen blindness, he will likely argue that he is not blind.
God is one. This is a tenet of true faith and the first commandment.
But some false Apostles and teachers come here teaching that God is trinue and even biune, i.e.., made up of 2 or 3 persons.
God is a HIM, not THEM. YHWH is him not them.
Remember the first commandment and you will do well.
These false teachers cannot identify God as HIM (ever) without contradicting themselves. Yet they do without realising it. You will catch them out from time to time.
AndrewAD,
Do you have a problem with scripture?Here is a compilation of the several passages and/or scriptural reasonings that suggest that Jesus Christ is deity.
Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Luke 1:11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. 13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God . 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord .”
The “Lord their God” here is the same one that John goes before as a forerunner…i.e. Jesus.
“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord;
Jesus speaking:
Matt 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.John 20:26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40“God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.1 Corinthians 1:2 NAS
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle–sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–
1 Cor 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman ; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price ; do not become slaves of men.
Colossians 4:12 NAS
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bond-slave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.This shows that Jesus is not just a mere man like us or it wouldn't be a good thing to be His slave.
Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,2 Thessalonians 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.
If you look at the Greek, you will see that all the verbs that are in these two verses are written in the singular form, yet there are two subjects which would normally require the verbs to be written in plural form. This suggests a compound unity of two persons, acting as one person
Tit 2:13, 14
…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, “that he (Jesus) might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE
RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
Kathi
Quote Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.do you believe that what it says is related to individuals or to a class of individuals
Kathi
Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOMwho his the HE that paul talks about
Kathi
Tit 2:13, 14
…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, “that he (Jesus) might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.should it not be “OUR GREAT GOD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST ” who gave himself for us.?
is this not more inline with all the scriptures Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 01 2012,19:53) Kathi Quote Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.do you believe that what it says is related to individuals or to a class of individuals
Pierre,
It seems to indicate individuals in that context of Jude 1.Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 01 2012,19:54) Kathi Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOMwho his the HE that paul talks about
Pierre,
This verse is translated in a variety of ways but if it is supposed to read 'his kingdom,' we are told that Jesus would receive the kingdom of His father David.Here are several translations of Heb 1:8
New International Version (©1984)
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.New Living Translation (©2007)
But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.English Standard Version (©2001)
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.International Standard Version (©2008)
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But concerning The Son, he said, “Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.”luke 1: 31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 01 2012,20:04) Kathi Tit 2:13, 14
…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, “that he (Jesus) might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.should it not be “OUR GREAT GOD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST ” who gave himself for us.?
is this not more inline with all the scriptures
Pierre,
I believe that it is correct with the comma to indicate that Jesus Christ is both our great God and Savior. Just about 4 verses earlier it talks about 'God our Savior' as one person.See here:
Titus 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
Kathi,I certainly have no problem with scripture and or any of the verses you posted other than a few that I believe have been misconstrued by the translators.I certainly believe Christ is divine,He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and is the Son of God,the Lord and Christ and he is called God in scripture such as in Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.I noticed you quoted Heb1:8 but not vs9.
Now according to the trinitarian dogma God can't have a God because they are three equal persons,each being in and of themselves the one true God.But this verse says God does have a God.One is the Most High God and the other is His Son Jesus Christ who is not the Most High God.This verse by itself shows the trinity doctrine to be untrue.
When a person has to go to such absurd lengths as to posit the idea of divine amnesia and then just say Christ limited himself after realizing that doesn't work,trying to prove their untenable theology;what should that tell you about who is not understanding scripture properly.All the confusing theological councils and debates would be unnecessary if we just accepted what scripture simply says.
The gospel of John is the most highly debated book of the bible over the issue of the trinity or Christ's divinity but what was the most important yet simple purpose of the author? John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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