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To Nick,
NOTE: I have 2 previous posts.
Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels [ Or messengers] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.Notice that the 7 lampstands are the churches. So it seems that these particular lampstands are people. The 2 lampstands of all the earth could even be Israel and the Church herself. They are his and Jesus said he had sheep of another fold. (Thinking out loud.)
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 19 2005,22:24) I really do not know Nick. I do think it a bit strange that he said he was flesh and bone and not flesh and blood as you would expect. Also, reconciling the idea that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and Christ saying he was flesh and bone poses no contradiction as he obviously went to Heaven.
In scripture we are told that life is in the blood. Yet we also know that the Spirit gives us life. Maybe it would be like taking physical water to heaven, when there is access to the river of life.
I think that water which sustains all physical life is only an image of the river of life of which we will never thirst again.
Blood and our physical bodies are mainly made up of water, so maybe blood is replaced by spirit. I can only speculate.Also, I am not too sure about unhealed wounds, but he definately had scars which are the remnant of healed wounds. I would imagine for example that Christ still has these scars even now. What is your take?
Hi t8,
I think it is clear that Jesus now has a heavenly body and since this is imperishable I would think it would be entirely intact and not bearing scars.
We know from 1Cor 15 that when we inherit our new body, which is put on over the old, then we become like the “man from heaven” so as we are like to him he must be like to us.
I think he would have had his new body put over the old when he ascended just as we have our new body supplied when we are taken up to meet him.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 19 2005,22:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2005,14:51) Hi t8,
Other thoughts;
. I see this chapter as recounting in other idioms aspects of the tribulation.I think there is a risk in taking a literalist view as there are many discrepancies in that light too.I think there is at least far more packed into these verses than the simple explanation of two men.
. It may refer especially to the worldwide evangelisation that must occur before the end and spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24.14. If so then the two witnesses could represent many more evangelists or even the Word and the Spirit. Perhaps the new and old testaments?
. It is not the usual way of God's people to strike the earth with plagues. We are told to bless and not to curse. Elijah was a prophet like this but was Moses?
. The 3 and a half days is almost certainly a reference to the three and a half year period mentioned often in scripture in relationsip to half of the seven year tribulation period.
. The sea and rivers are turned to blood in rev 16.3f. Could that be a parallel reference to 11.6 too?
What problems are there if one takes a literal view?
It does seem that these 2 witnessess do things that both Elijah and Moses did. Fire coming down from heaven and water into blood. We also know that these 2 men appeared with Jesus talking to him as Jesus was transfigured. So it seems that they are special, perhaps even chosen among men. (2 olive trees and the 2 lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.)Could be just a coincedence that is true. But remember that God used Elijah greatly and even John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare the way of the Lord. It could be that just before the 2nd coming of our Lord, that he may send Elijah to prepare the way again.
I am open to learning what this all means. But somethings God will not reveal until the time is right. But if we seek, God will reveal what he wants to reveal.
Hi t8,
Well Rev 11.1-1-2 is not related to the witnesses but is symbolic of the selection by God of those who belong to Jesus from those who do not in preparation for rapture.Now if we look at verses 3-13 we need to put in what symbolism we recognise. The time periods of
42 months
1260 days
and three and a half daysare all the equivalents of each other and are likely to be symbols for three and a half years-half the tribulation period of seven years revealed in Daniel.
If you put those symbols back into their context then ,surely they will prophesy for that time, it will not rain during that time but will their dead bodies lie in the street for three and a half years?
Now why should prophets prophesy in the last days? They are not teaching or revealing prophecy. They are not apparently healing or bringing anyone into the kingdom. They do have enemies who want to harm them and they are able to torment and destroy those enemies and damage the earth.
No other human prophet has had fire coming out of their mouth so that too will be symbolic of spiritual power. What will they have to prophesy about for so long? The future is present and nearly complete. I think we need some lateral thinking here. They punish and curse and that is not the usual way of God's prophets.
The description of where their bodies lie is symbolic and does not define a particular geographic place. All nations will be able to look at them yet that would not be possible if they were in a spot on earth.
The last verses speak of a resurrection. Could this be the first resurrection of the saved after the first half of the tribulation presented in symbolic form. I am unsure of any of this but still feel a literalist view denies depth here and would like input from others.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,18:51) Now why should prophets prophesy in the last days? They are not teaching or revealing prophecy. They are not apparently healing or bringing anyone into the kingdom. They do have enemies who want to harm them and they are able to torment and destroy those enemies and damage the earth.
Perhaps to warn of impending doom. God always warns people through his prophets before judgement. We must remember that people (of the world) in those days will be carrying on as normal before the dead in Christ are raised.We see that today when disasters befall the world. The Tsunami for example didn't appear to change the lifestyle of the world. Maybe some people were affected to the point of repentance against dead works. But by and large the world just carries on as before.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,18:51) The description of where their bodies lie is symbolic and does not define a particular geographic place. All nations will be able to look at them yet that would not be possible if they were in a spot on earth.
If they were 2 men, they would surely make the news and their extraordinary claim that they will be raised from the dead may incite the press to film their dead bodies to see if their words are true. Surely if such men brought judgement on the people, their bodies would be viewable via televsion and webcam to an unbelieving world. After all the people do give presents to each other when they are dead and celebrate their death because of the misery they brought.The people would be surprised when indeed they are taken up as this would prove that Christ himself was most likely raised from the dead as the gospel that the people have ignored says. Great fear would come on the people as they start to realise that God is true and the words of judgement of these prophets are true too, as proof of rising from the dead would suggest.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,18:51) They punish and curse and that is not the usual way of God's prophets.
This is the Tribulation and that is a period of God's wrath. Before that, prophets came in a season of grace and before that they came in the season of the Law.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,18:51) The description of where their bodies lie is symbolic and does not define a particular geographic place.
It is talking of Jerusalem, where our Lord was crucified.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,18:51) but will their dead bodies lie in the street for three and a half years?
They will prophesy for 1,260 days…
But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.So they are alive and prophecying for 3 1/2 years and they are killed and the breath of life enters them 3 1/2 days later.
They hear a voice saying “Come up here”. That is the same thing that John heard when he was shown the Revelation. Just as John heard those words, so it could be that the 2 witnesses who hear the same thing, are men (like John).Quote (t8 @ Mar. 20 2005,00:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2005,18:51) The description of where their bodies lie is symbolic and does not define a particular geographic place. All nations will be able to look at them yet that would not be possible if they were in a spot on earth.
If they were 2 men, they would surely make the news and their extraordinary claim that they will be raised from the dead may incite the press to film their dead bodies to see if their words are true. Surely if such men brought judgement on the people, their bodies would be viewable via televsion and webcam to an unbelieving world. After all the people do give presents to each other when they are dead and celebrate their death because of the misery they brought.The people would be surprised when indeed they are taken up as this would prove that Christ himself was most likely raised from the dead as the gospel that the people have ignored says. Great fear would come on the people as they start to realise that God is true and the words of judgement of these prophets are true too, as proof of rising from the dead would suggest.
Hi t8,
When I look at the TV to see Paul Holmes I do not see Paul. I see the TV screen. There is an image of Paul on that screen sure. But I would be very surprised if God regarded seeing events on TV or film as being equivalent to “seeing ” in scriptural terms.?Hi Nick,
This conversation seems to be happening in 2 places. So I will post in the Discussion called 'The two witnesses of revelation'.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2005,18:08) Hi t8,
When I look at the TV to see Paul Holmes I do not see Paul. I see the TV screen. There is an image of Paul on that screen sure. But I would be very surprised if God regarded seeing events on TV or film as being equivalent to “seeing ” in scriptural terms.?
It is interesting to note that not all who have eyes can see. For many have eyes and are yet blind. The scriptural view of seeing is perceiving the truth. Or seeing beyond our natural ability. Of course a vision is like TV in that TV is an image/representation/vision of what is happening.Our natural vision & hearing are just waves that end up as electrical impulses being understood and interpretted by that computer called the brain. Spiritual sight and hearing is to perceive in the Spirit as opposed to the physical.
I think that TV images if they are recording a real event with no alteration could be said to have been 'seen'. E.g., I could say to you, “did you 'see' the earthquake in Japan on the 6. oclock news. My point being that natural sight is just electrical impulses, just as a TV signal is. It's all created and natural sight caters for both in my opinion.
There is also that scripture that talks about a man who sees his face in a mirror and then forgets what he looks like. Seeing in scriptural terms appears to cater for anything that is viewed. Anyway this is off the subject but I thought I would throw that one in.
True t8,
But I might also say
” did you see there was an earthquake in Japan” if I had only heard about it on the Radio or through a friend.You could say that and people do, but that is incorrect English if you are referring to hearing something. If you see/hear something and in your mind or understand the picture then the word 'see' is appropriate (that is true). Similarly we can say I saw this or that in my dream last night. All sight is actually compiled in the brain. The eyes are simply lenses. But the picture is created by the brain to be rendered intelligible by the mind.
So long as the mind sees the picture, we can say that we see it. Often the word 'see' is used to mean 'understood'. All our senses can be used to 'see' in that context.
Hmmm,
Our eyes are more than lenses dear friend. The retina assembles the picture and send it to the brain for us to see.Yes, see means perceive, too especially as shown in
“Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God”
Hi,
“My Father's House”of John 14 seems to be where the saved await their resurrection. We are told in Mt 16 that the gates of Hades shall not overpower the Church established with the disciples as the foundation stones. So that cannot be our fate.Who can help here?Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 15 2005,15:53) Concerning John 14:1-6
Thank you Adam Pastor,
I would be interested in your views on Eliyah's premise about the need for restoration of the true Hebrew names in the Scriptures.Were the Jews evildoers to substitute the names out of respect for the Names?
Would we be treating the Name with respect to restore them?
It is good to know better the history but does it matter?
Or does it matter in prayer or any other way?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2005,16:00) Hmmm,
Our eyes are more than lenses dear friend. The retina assembles the picture and send it to the brain for us to see.Yes, see means perceive, too especially as shown in
“Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God”
True a comparison with eyes and a lense is inadequate, then so is the camera itself to the human brain.But likening the Kingdom of Heaven to a field is also inadequate. But perhaps adequate in making a point.
“Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God”
Yes we need the Spirit before we can understand the Kingdom. That which is from the Spirit of God is from God. Man cannot see nor understand the things of God from his own spirit.
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