The Dead in Christ

[NickHassan]

Hi human,
It does say “many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;and coming out of the tombs AFTER HIS RESURRECTION they entered the holy city and appeared to many”
I do not think we should question the veracity of scripture. The timing is unusual as it seems to describe a future event. They could not have the imperishable new body as Yeshua did not yet and as it could not die again.
Scripture says “no one has ascended to heaven”in John but being taken may be different.Certainly scripture does say that Elijah was taken to heaven. His letter may have been written in his lifetime and arrived years later-as a prophetic work?

[Human]

Hi Nick,

If you take the part “they entered the holy city” out of the scripture, the verse could easily mean that graves were broken open, bodies of the dead were thrown out and appeared to many (especially if you look at the meaning of the original Greek words there). Of course, I do not want to claim that the scripture is wrong or altered there. However, not one of the apostles later considered it to be important to mention this event.

Jehoram became a king only after Elijah's going to heaven. Only after Elijah's going to heaven Jehoram started to do ungodly things. What Elijah wrote in his letter was a reprobation of what Jehoram had done AFTER Elijah's ascension to heaven.
btw – Elijah's disciples wanted to go look for Elijah in case if the whirlwind had dropped him somewhere – 2 Kings 2:16.
“Heaven” can also mean simply the physical heaven – the sky.
But even more importantly – John 3:13 says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus – that includes Enoch, Moses, and Elijah.
Matthew 11:11 says that John the Baptist was the “greatest prophet” (that means – even greater than Elijah, Moses, and Enoch) but even he did not go to heaven.

[NickHassan]

hi human,
We do not take any words out of scripture unless it can be shown they were falsely placed there and I know of no such allegation about Matt 27.52-3. Besides it does also say that “they appeared to many” and I am sure this does not mean their rotted physical remains.

[Ramblinrose]

An interesting article on the subject at hand.

http://www.intergate.com/%7Ejcordaro/enoch,eliyah,moses.html

[Human]

Nick,

Of course I do not want to claim that the verse is wrong or modified. As you said, there are not real proof to that. But what I WANT to say is that Jesus' disciples did not pay much importance to this event, even if it did happen. Why should we?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,03:12)

Jn 3.13 ” No one has ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN, but he who descended from heaven;the Son of Man.” How do you find reconciliation between these two scriptures?

I haven't spent a lot of time (if any) contemplating this subject in my life, but my 2 cents worth says that Christ and Elijah went to Heaven in different ways.

Jesus ascended and Elijah was taken up in a chariot.
Jesus has a body of flesh and bone and I assume that Elijah's body was flesh and blood. If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, then maybe Elijah needed the assistance of a vehicle and he could have been transformed/transfigured in order to enter Heaven. After all he did appear with Christ in a glorious form with Moses.

My point is that they both went to Heaven, but there is no mention of a chariot for Christ. He just went up.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2005,10:13)

After all he did appear with Christ in a glorious form with Moses.

t8 …
this was a VISION …
(Mat 17:9)  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Moses and Elijah weren't LITERALLY there!!!
They were and are DEAD, sleeping the sleep of death, in the dust of the earth. [Psa 13.3, Dan 12.2]

What the disciples saw was a PREVIEW of the Kingdom of GOD (in fulfillment of what Jesus said in Mt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27)

Therefore, they saw a PREVIEW of the glorious Kingdom of GOD where all the saints including Moses and Elijah will be present when they are resurrected at Christ's return. [Luke 13.28-29]

It was a VISION … a PREVIEW … Moses & Elijah weren't literally there

Just thought I should point this out …

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam Pastor,
We need to understand the true meaning of visions and appearances. The Luke version [Lk 9.28f]includes the detail
” And behold:two men were talking with him; and they were Moses and Elijah,who,appearing in glory, were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem”

Do you accept it was the real Jesus who was talking and, if so, who or what was he talking to? If it was just a visual illusion would any useful conversation be possible? The conversation was relevant to the current situation and we are told it was with Moses and Elijah.

[Human]

Nick,

You might look at Revelation 11. It seems to be very related to the vision that the three apostles saw. It also talks about two prophets and they are described to have the same abilities as Elijah and Moses had – ability to close the skies (Elijah) and ability to turn water into blood (Moses). You will see there that John is not talking about literal Elijah and Moses. They symbolize something more than just two prophets.

So this also emphasizes that the vision with Elijah and Moses was a prophetic and symbolic vision of future things – the Kingdom of Heaven – and not a vision of literal Moses and Elijah who had been dead for many years.

[NickHassan]

Hi human,
Interesting insights. But scripture does not say these witnesses are men. It does say they prophesy and have powers. Fire flows out of their mouth which makes it unlikely they are human. My theory, which is just that, is that they are the Sun and Moon who are named as witnesses in Ps 89.36f. They can be as 'sackcloth'[eclipses or cloud interference] and can inflict major harm on planet earth through heat and tides. This would fit with the changes predicted in our planet's relationship with these bodies and the fire and tide changes predicted at and times.

Your explanation does not cover the conversation Jesus had with them.

[NickHassan]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2005,10:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2005,03:12) Jn 3.13 ” No one has ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN, but he who descended from heaven;the Son of Man.” How do you find reconciliation between these two scriptures? I haven't spent a lot of time (if any) contemplating this subject in my life, but my 2 cents worth says that Christ and Elijah went to Heaven in different ways. Jesus ascended and Elijah was taken up in a chariot. Jesus has a body of flesh and bone and I assume that Elijah's body was flesh and blood. If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, then maybe Elijah needed the assistance of a vehicle and he could have been transformed/transfigured in order to enter Heaven. After all he did appear with Christ in a glorious form with Moses. My point is that they both went to Heaven, but there is no mention of a chariot for Christ. He just went up.

Hi t8,
Your description of the resurrected Yeshua as flesh and bone rather than flesh and blood is interesting. Are you saying that because the lance pierced his side and his blood poured out it was not replaced when he was raised?
I had never considered that but I would have thought he would unable to live without the life in the blood?

[Proclaimer]

It was a reference from Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
&
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 17 2005,12:24)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2005,10:13) After all he did appear with Christ in a glorious form with Moses. t8 … this was a VISION … (Mat 17:9)  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Moses and Elijah weren't LITERALLY there!!! They were and are DEAD, sleeping the sleep of death, in the dust of the earth. [Psa 13.3, Dan 12.2]

Thanks for your input Adam. However I am still not convinced that it didn't literally happen, although I am certainly open to that possibility.

I think that they (Moses & Elijah) appeared with Jesus and spoke to him. Even the Father spoke from Heaven. It seems real enough and it certainly seemed real to Peter, James and John as the were terrified. Peter even wanted to build a shelter for each of them. If it were a vision, I couldn't imagine Peter wanting to build a literal shelter for a holographic image of Moses and Elijah, unless he couldn't tell the difference. Jesus who was obviously real however spoke with Moses and Elijah. That is what the scripture says.

Perhaps it is a coincedence that of all men who have ever lived, it seems that 2 men may have been the exception when it came to death and resurrection, namely Elijah and Enoch. Moses probably died but there is a mysterious verse about Michael the angel seeking his body. (There must be a reason for this as I do not think angels seek our bodies when we die.) So of 3 possible people in all humanity that could have been exceptions and then for 2 of them to appear in glory with Christ just seems to be too much of a coincedence. But I admit that coincedences do happen.

Even the Book of Revelation was delivered by an Angel. I don't think that the Angel was in the vision however but was literally there, passing on a vision.

Matthew 17:1-9
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified.
7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don't be afraid.”
8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2005,03:00)

Hi human, Interesting insights. But scripture does not say these witnesses are men. It does say they prophesy and have powers. Fire flows out of their mouth which makes it unlikely they are human. My theory, which is just that, is that they are the Sun and Moon who are named as witnesses in Ps 89.36f. They can be as 'sackcloth'[eclipses or cloud interference] and can inflict major harm on planet earth through heat and tides. This would fit with the changes predicted in our planet's relationship with these bodies and the fire and tide changes predicted at and times. Your explanation does not cover the conversation Jesus had with them.

Hi Nick,

I do not hold that view, but of course I am open to truth and will consider your view.

I am thinking of this verse, which seems to say that the 2 witnesesss are men and they have bodies.

Revelation 11:6-12
6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

They seem as men to me as they have the following attributes:

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Only NIV of the commonly used translations [plus 3 others in Bible gateway] has the word “men” in Rev 11 verse 6. Could this be an inserted translational bias?

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Other thoughts;
. I see this chapter as recounting in other idioms aspects of the tribulation.I think there is a risk in taking a literalist view as there are many discrepancies in that light too.I think there is at least far more packed into these verses than the simple explanation of two men.
. It may refer especially to the worldwide evangelisation that must occur before the end and spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24.14. If so then the two witnesses could represent many more evangelists or even the Word and the Spirit. Perhaps the new and old testaments?
. It is not the usual way of God's people to strike the earth with plagues. We are told to bless and not to curse. Elijah was a prophet like this but was Moses?
. The 3 and a half days is almost certainly a reference to the three and a half year period mentioned often in scripture in relationsip to half of the seven year tribulation period.
. The sea and rivers are turned to blood in rev 16.3f. Could that be a parallel reference to 11.6 too?

[NickHassan]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 17 2005,09:58)

It was a reference from Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” & Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Hi t8,
It does make you wonder why Yeshua chose those particular words.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
The resurrected body of Yeshua still carried the unhealed wounds of his death as shown by his interface with Thomas. I wonder about the body of Lazarus, his friend, and the others who died and were brought back to life by Yeshua and the disciples- were they damaged too? Again the reassembly of the bodies in Ez 37 and Rev 20.13f suggests a return to the normal original state. Was Jesus different in this way?

[Proclaimer]

I really do not know Nick.

I do think it a bit strange that he said he was flesh and bone and not flesh and blood as you would expect. Also, reconciling the idea that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and Christ saying he was flesh and bone poses no contradiction as he obviously went to Heaven.

In scripture we are told that life is in the blood. Yet we also know that the Spirit gives us life. Maybe it would be like taking physical water to heaven, when there is access to the river of life.

I think that water which sustains all physical life is only an image of the river of life of which we will never thirst again.
Blood and our physical bodies are mainly made up of water, so maybe blood is replaced by spirit. I can only speculate.

Also, I am not too sure about unhealed wounds, but he definately had scars which are the remnant of healed wounds. I would imagine for example that Christ still has these scars even now. What is your take?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2005,14:51)

Hi t8, Other thoughts; . I see this chapter as recounting in other idioms aspects of the tribulation.I think there is a risk in taking a literalist view as there are many discrepancies in that light too.I think there is at least far more packed into these verses than the simple explanation of two men. . It may refer especially to the worldwide evangelisation that must occur before the end and spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24.14. If so then the two witnesses could represent many more evangelists or even the Word and the Spirit. Perhaps the new and old testaments? . It is not the usual way of God's people to strike the earth with plagues. We are told to bless and not to curse. Elijah was a prophet like this but was Moses? . The 3 and a half days is almost certainly a reference to the three and a half year period mentioned often in scripture in relationsip to half of the seven year tribulation period. . The sea and rivers are turned to blood in rev 16.3f. Could that be a parallel reference to 11.6 too?

What problems are there if one takes a literal view?
It does seem that these 2 witnessess do things that both Elijah and Moses did. Fire coming down from heaven and water into blood. We also know that these 2 men appeared with Jesus talking to him as Jesus was transfigured. So it seems that they are special, perhaps even chosen among men. (2 olive trees and the 2 lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.)

Could be just a coincedence that is true. But remember that God used Elijah greatly and even John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare the way of the Lord. It could be that just before the 2nd coming of our Lord, that he may send Elijah to prepare the way again.

I am open to learning what this all means. But somethings God will not reveal until the time is right. But if we seek, God will reveal what he wants to reveal.

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