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This post was started in response to a point raised by MrBob in another post, who suggested that the Dead in Christ are asleep and awaiting to be raised up on the last day. He suggests that they are not in heaven, at least not yet. The dead are sleeping, in a state of no consciousness.
I am open to this being the case, but the Book of Matthew mentions that some of the dead at least were raised when Jesus died on the cross.
Matthew 27:51-53
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.So what happened to these people. Did they return back to their sleep, were they raised up with Christ when he was taken to heaven or is there some other explanation.
In addition we have the appearance of Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ in heavenly glory in the transfiguration. Of course Elijah was raised to heaven whilst he still lived and Satan and Michael disputed over the body of Moses, so these 2 were obviously special cases.
I sometimes wonder if we who are in time see in linear and from eternity it has already happened.
Any ideas from anyone?
I heard an interesting account of a preacher from Niger that died in a car accident. He was dead for three days and was embalmed with formealdehyde etc. In his story he told that there is a difference between paradise and heaven. He said that those who die in Christ go to paradise and then once after the final judgment or rapture(whichever your doctrine adheres to) those who are "dead" in Christ (i.e. in paradise) will rise to heaven first. Those on earth who are raptured or taken up after the final judgment (pre-trib, post trip, no trib, so many views) will then rise directly to heaven. He said that he was permitted to view both heaven and paradise. Paradise was a type of pictoral mountainesque type of location and heaven is where God’s throne resides. I guess it makes sense because Jesus himself told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise. I guess there are probably many more theories on the matter, but after hearing his story of being dead for three days and God giving him life on the final day, it kind of makes you wonder.
Taken from
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=30Yes that is interesting about Paradise.
Some believe that Paradise was the place where the righteous dead were placed before the ressurrection of the dead and I tend to agree with this. However there is also the idea that when Jesus died, the dead in Christ were released from this place and taken to heaven.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.1 Corinthians 15:12
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.So Christ was the first. But the question is, when will the dead in Christ be raised?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.When will this happen? The Last Day or has it already happened, or is it happening?
Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,The last scripture seems to indicate that the dead were raised after Jesus was raised. So he mastered death and released the captives as he holds the keys of death.
We know that the dead are raised first and we who are alive will follow them. But is this all in a moment or will the dead be raised first over a period of time as they die and after Jesus was raised. And perhaps those who are alive will be translated in a moment?
An interesting debate at least.
The dead in Christ is a subject that is very interesting because it shows that even in death your alive.
the dead hear ; the dead see ; and are waiting judgement.
1Thess. 4:16 (The Shout) Luke 16:23 (the rich man sees from hell ) rev.20:11 -13 (white throne judgement)
To be absent from this body is to be with the Lord. Also the word says : to be in Christ is to be alive.
Could it be that we are going to recieve a level of judgement on the good we have done. To say ? “rewards and how many”?
Also to those in hell, judgement of different levels.
To have judgement is to cause reaction to an action. A devine sentance or decision from God.
I hope that I can say this to be understood:
the day of the Lord is the day of your carnal death. But , the great day of the Lord is when He comes and then we all will be judged to be by His side in the twinkling of an eye. Judgement starts in the house of worship. ” To turn away from Christ is to die.”dead”. Only our Redeemer can call us back into life with Him .
” Lazarus” Jesus's friend is a good example.
Thank you for any input on this subject. I'm eager to learn more.(Edited by thehappyman at 7:37 am on Jan. 6, 2004)
Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply. I’m currently reading a book on this called "Are the Dead Alive Now?" by V.P Wierwille. Quite interesting to say the least.
I have always been taught that the dead are DEAD. While many Christians are taught that the dead are in heaven (or hades).
I’ve never really taken a good look at what I believe in until summer of last year (2003). But now that’s what I’m doing about this. I’ve been more "open" to things such as this since then. Some of the things I was taught were right, some not so right.
Anyway, sorry about my speech, I guess the point I’m making here is that I’ll keep looking into this, finish that book, and then make a decision.
God Bless everybody 🙂
The Book called “A Divine Revelation of hell” by Mary K Baxter, talks of her experience of being shown hell and contains vivid descriptions therein.
One interesting account talks about Paradise and she says that in Hades/Grave ? the part that use to be called Paradise as recorded in the Lararus scripture, is now part of hell as hell is increasing and the dead in Christ have been taken up and continue to be taken up since Christ took the Keys of Death.
To be honest with you, I read only part of the book and couldn't read the rest of it.
Just one account and not enough to stand on it's own, but I thought it was interesting because it was the belief that I held with regards to Paradise and Hades/Grave.
I think that Paradise is now used to describe the part of Heaven that surrounds the great city. A place of beautiful nature, mansions and the River of Life that flows through the City and down the streets of the City also flows out here.
Try this link for a description.
https://heavennet.net/testimonies/testimony01.htmJohn 5:25-29
Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.It appears that the rising of the dead to judgement is happening now and in the future.
Hi t8,
“Those who are in the tombs WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH”
1Cor 15 23″.. but each in it's own order:Christ the first fruits ,after that those who are Christs's AT HIS COMING”
rev 20 4..they came to life and reigned with Christ a 1000 years.”
With the resurrection prophecy of Ezek 37 all these scriptures seem to indicate to me that death is sleep [1thess 4 13]and we are raised from the earth together at the return of Jesus.The fact that some graves were opened at the death of Jesus does not tell me that was the usual thing but an exception and we are given no clues as to what happened to those people-perhaps they lived for some time like Lazarus before going back to sleep.
Hi Nick
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2004,21:47) “Those who are in the tombs WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME FORTH”
1Cor 15 23″.. but each in it's own order:Christ the first fruits ,after that those who are Christs's AT HIS COMING”
rev 20 4..they came to life and reigned with Christ a 1000 years.”
With the resurrection prophecy of Ezek 37 all these scriptures seem to indicate to me that death is sleep [1thess 4 13]and we are raised from the earth together at the return of Jesus.
Is Ezekiel 37 talking about the resurrection of individual people, or figuratively (using the resurrection of people as a metaphor) of the resurrection of Israel as a nation (compare the ends of chapters 36 and 37)? I don't know – maybe both?In any case, I emphatically agree that nobody goes to heaven when they die. Death is a time of unconsciousness when “the dead know not any thing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5), hence the metaphor of sleep, as you rightly point out.
God's purpose is to do with the earth (Numbers 14:21, Isaiah 45:18, Habakkuk 2:14 etc), and so is our hope (Matthew 5:5 etc).
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2004,21:47) The fact that some graves were opened at the death of Jesus does not tell me that was the usual thing but an exception and we are given no clues as to what happened to those people-perhaps they lived for some time like Lazarus before going back to sleep.
Yeah – that's the way I see it.God bless,
SamHi Sammo,
Ezek 37 is a very dramatic illustration of the resurrection of the dead. It speaks of them coming out of their graves and they are promised that the Holy Spirit will live in them. It seems to speak of endtimes as it relates to the reunification of the divided tribes of Israel together again back in their own land under a single king-Jesus symbolised by David-in a permanent covenant. And the dwelling place of God in His sanctuary on earth will be with them forver as in the final chapters of Revelation.Verse 11 also relates to the present hopelessness- that would give it double relevance-then and the future as you say.
The previous chapter is an important context as well and it speaks of the turning of jews to Christ and being baptised in water and the Spirit and this is also an endtime prophecy as they will “look on Him they have pierced ” and repent.
that's my reading of it anyway.
Hi,
Ps 13.3
” Enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death”Jn 11..11f “.. Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I might awaken him”
The disciples ,therefore said to Him
” Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover”
Now Jesus had spoken of his death but they thought that he was speaking of literal sleep. Then Jesus therefore said to them plainly
“Lazarus is dead.”..
“Lazarus .Come forth.”Then he who had died came forth..
Jesus was teaching us about death and that it is just sleep.Hi,
Acts 7.59 “And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said
” Lord Jesus receive my spirit”
And falling on his knees he cried out with a loud voice
” Lord ,do not hold this sin against them”
and having said this he fell asleep.He believed his spirit would return to be with Jesus and he slept in death.
Hi , I see no eveidence that the dead will rise till the time of Jesus's return,with well known exceptions as with those who rose at the Death of Jesus.
The scripture in 1Peter about preaching to the dead is interesting.
“He was put to death insofar as fleshly existence goes, but was given life in the realm of the spirit. It was in the spirit also that he went to preach to the spirits in prison.They had disobeyed as long ago as Noah's day, while God patiently waited till the Ark was built. At that time a few persons,eight in all escaped in the Ark through the water”
Now does this include only those from that era or is it simply mean it includes those that far back in time? If it included all under the OT in paradise then why were those who had sinned included-would they not have been in Hades? Or were they not regarded as sinners because there was no law then to impute sin?
Who knows?1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[ 5:5 Or that his body; or that the flesh] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[ 6:63 Or Spirit] and they are life.Romans 7:18-20
18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[1] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.I offer these scriptures to give further insight.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2004,15:44) Hi , I see no eveidence that the dead will rise till the time of Jesus's return,with well known exceptions as with those who rose at the Death of Jesus.
Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.I offer this scripture to encourage. We can no longer die in Christ, only the flesh can. Perhaps this explains why the graves were opened when Jesus overcame death. He (Jesus) declares in Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Then we have 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.I struggle to understand how this all fits together. One thing I know is that those who shall be found alive on that day shall not anticipate glory before the dead in Christ; for they shall rise first, and begin the enjoyment of it before the others shall be changed.
I suppose to truly understand this I need to know when it is that the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command. Is it at the end of the world, a time in the future, but not the end, or has it already happened when we look at the dead who were raised when Christ was raised. Or is the raising of the dead linked to the descending of Christ and the archangel at all?
I think most would put this event has happening in the future, but not the end. If so then I still struggle to see where the dead went when they were raised up with Christ.
Were they raised up, only to fall asleep again?
Hi t8,
Well this is my understanding and I hope it helps.
The purpose of the first resurrection is to assemble with Jesus all who are saved and found worthy to enter the day of rest-the glorious 1000 year reign on earth of Jesus as described in Revelation 20.2-6.We know Jesus has already been resurrected as the first fruits as described in 1 Cor 15.20-24-but the term has important OT significance too.
“Christ ,the first fruits and then, AT HIS COMING, all those who belong to him. After that comes the end, when ,after having destroyed every sovereignty, authority ,and power, he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father”There is no doubt that the timing of this assembly is at the second coming of Jesus when he returns to stand on Mt Zion.In rev 19.1 it says” After this I heard what sounded like a great assembly in heaven….” Is this the saints? No it must be the angels because no man apart from Enoch and Elijah have gone to heaven yet.
Rev 19.11f describes the return of the Word of God-Jesus-with his heavenly army and his victory as King over the armies surrounding Jerusalem. Then there is described the assembly of the saved and the 1000 yr reign following immediately [after the chaining up of Satan].
Now these works of putting all in order and handing the kingdom to the Father is God's plan for the 1000 year reign and the final judgement, so the return of Jesus is confirmed to be just before that and after that is the heavenly kingdom on the new earth.
So if the first resurrection is to assemble the saved then it is unlikely that there will be a significant gap in time between this resurrection and the assembly of the living saved as described in 1 Thess 4.17 as we meet them in the air to be with the Lord.
So that leaves the raising of the dead at the time of Christ as a different event. They were not raised with the purpose of the final assembly. They were not raised at the sound of the archangel's voice or any trumpet as 1 Thess 4 describes.
Mt 27.53 says “many bodies of saints who had fallen asleep were raised.” But then there is no further mention of them though the resurrected body of Jesus was recorded as being seen many times.Then again we do not know what finally happened to Lazarus though he is recorded as being present later at a banquet in Jn 12. 2 and the Jews wanted to see him and some wanted to kill him because of the witness to Jesus role in Jn 12.9-11.
Do we need to know? Would it help our faith to know these details? We will find out some day but I would guess that they continued to live out their natural life span like someone healed from any other illness?
who knows?ps another thought is that these who are resurrected when Jesus died are “saints” so that means they are not OT but those disciples of Jesus who died surely.So ,though they were “many” it would not have been that many?
pps,
Of course the other event that occurs just after the return of Jesus and before the 1000yr reign is the tribunal of Christ.
In Matt 25 .19
Rev 20 4f tells us that in the millenium there will be three groups of people.Those sitting on thrones empowered to pass judgement as well as
Those who had been martyred for their witness to Jesus and the Word of God-but there is no evidence they had been born again-and
Those who died in the tribulation without worshipping Satan.The first group, surely, are those who have been resurrected or were taken alive surely and they are already given their reward responsibilities for the millenium so they must have been to the tribunal. They do not qualify under the other two reasons for being in the first resurrection.
” After a long absense, the Master of those servants came home and settled accounts with them.The man who had received the 5000 came forward bringing the additional five.
'My Lord 'he said'you let me have 5000. See I have made 5000 more'
His master said to him
'Well done ! You are an industrious and reliable servant .Since you were dependable in a small matterI will put you in charge of larger affairs.Come share your master's joy'
The man who had received the 2000 then stepped forward
'My lord' he said You entrusted me with 2000 and I have made 2000 more'
His master said to him 'Cleverly done ! You are an industrious and reliable servant. Since you were dependable in a small matter I will put you in charge of larger affairs. Come share your master's joy..”do you agree?
Hi t8,
As far as the timing of the resurrection of the dead goes this seems to suggest it has not happened yet.
2Tim 2.18
“Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth SAYING THAT THE RESURRECTION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, and thus upset the faith of some”Hi,
my response to the first post in this topic:
Were some of the dead actually raised to life straight after Jesus' death? Why then other apostles did not report this event in their gospels or later letters? This clearly should have been an important matter. But nobody mentioned it later. Not once. Quite the opposite – as 2 Tim 2:18 says, the ressurection had not yet taken place at that time.
What Matthew actually could have described is an event when bodies of the dead are thrown out of the graves as a result of a strong earthquake. A similar thing did actually happen some time in 1960s.
Did the dead “go into the holy city?” The part of the scripture “they went into the holy city” could as well be a fragment from another gospel or a later addition. Or this scripture cold refer to someone else not the dead bodies.Was Elijah actually taken to the spiritual heaven? Not likely.
– The Bible says that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram even after Elijah's ascension to heaven – 2 Chronicles 21:12.
– John 3:13 says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus.
(so more likely Elijah was simply transported by a whirlwind to another place).I hope this sounds reasonable!
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