The cross….not the correct symbol for adoration

[Lightenup]

David,
Your post is too long to handle at one sitting, so I am just going to make short posts in response to you.
I said:

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God never speaks about the Christian cross as a detestable thing. Jesus keeps using the term “cross” as a figurative term and not in a detestable way at all.

you said:

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Quote No, he used “stauros” and “xylon” as a figurative term. He never spoke English.

Good grief…you know that the word “cross” is a possible translation of “stauros” and that a cross was made out of timber (xylon). I have been thinking that a pole with a cross beam would be much easier to use than an extra long pole. I am guessing that a pole with a cross beam would balance better, need less of a hole dug to sink into the ground than an extra long pole, especially with someone moving around in pain. The tree which provided the timber wouldn't have to be as tall if a cross beam was used and the arms of the person went out to the side instead of overhead plus allowing room for a sign above that.

What does it matter anyway, whether it was a tall pole, or a pole with a cross beam. I think that is ridiculous and does not take away from the event that happened on it. Do you argue about such unimportant things as to whether or not the manger was a barn or a cave also?

[Lightenup]

David,

You said:

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You base this only on tradition. I could similarily ask: Why do we celebrate Jesus birth on Dec 25th? Would you say: “Because he was born on that day.”? Tradition and popular belief are not always correct. Is it better to go with the Bible or tradition?

I already answered this by saying:

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Dec. 25th could have very well been the date that the virgin conception happened and a year later, the wise men visited. It also is likely the day that Hanukah began that year. Christmas isn't just about a birth but about a story that begins and ends with the conception and the wise men's visit. Do you think God was mad at the wise men that came late to celebrate the birth? Important things happened during Jewish holidays. A virgin conception and wise men bringing gifts could very well have both happened on Dec. 25 during Hanukah. Jesus's coming was to bring the Jews and the Gentiles together to become the “one new man.” I think it is interesting to plan the miraculous conception when the Son of God, the Light of the World, was sent to earth in the womb to be both on a Jewish holiday and a Gentile holiday and both be about light. Christmas is the “one new man” holiday…the virgin conception and birth began the coming together of Jew and Gentile after all.

you said:

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First, they were magoi, or magi, astrologers. Stop calling them “wise men.” They were chaldean astrologers, (God hates astrology, check Deuteronomy.) They were not directed there by God, because first they were brought to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus. Would God use astrology (something he condemns) to direct magoi first to Herod, who wanted Jesus dead? HARDLY! Again, you confuse Satan with God.

Fine, magi is a better term than wise men, the magi were spoken to by God when they were told not to return to Herod, don't you know that?

Matt 2:12
12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
NASU

[david]

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What does it matter anyway, whether it was a tall pole, or a pole with a cross beam.  I think that is ridiculous and does not take away from the event that happened on it.  Do you argue about such unimportant things as to whether or not the manger was a barn or a cave also?

The “manger” was definitely not a barn or a cave.  A manger is a food trough.  I often get upset when people think the “manger” was the building they were in.  A manger is a food trough for animals.  You wouldn't believe how many people think the manger was the building.  We are told that it was a “house.”  Back then, they didn't have grocery stores really, or 7-11's.  People had chickens and animals and houses had food troughs, mangers.

Anyway, of course, the fact that it happened is infinitely more important than the actual instrument it was carried out on.  

BUT, it is also incredibly important not to worship other gods.  
And it's incredibly important not to mimic or adopt the customs and religious symbols of those who worshiped these false gods.
So, IF the stauros/xylon that Jesus died on was in fact an ordinary stauros/xylon (stake) then that has to make you ask: Where did the cross symbol come from?  The answer is: The worship of false gods.
Granted, it is an “if.”  But it is an “if” that if we get wrong, means we are honoring a symbol that Jesus didn't die on and that Jehovah God hates.

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Good grief…you know that the word “cross” is a possible translation of “stauros”

Yes, I know it's possible.  I just don't think it wise to offend God by adopting a pagan religious symbol and connecting it to Jesus sacrificial death, if that is not what he died on.  I think you have to balance the uncertainty with the 'what if I'm wrong' question.

[david]

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Fine, magi is a better term than wise men, the magi were spoken to by God when they were told not to return to Herod, don't you know that?

Yes, I know they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod. And?

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ April 11 2010,19:56)

Quote Fine, magi is a better term than wise men, the magi were spoken to by God when they were told not to return to Herod, don't you know that? Yes, I know they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod.  And?

David,
My point was that God knew all about the magi and God placed the star in the sky. Yes, God hates the divination of stars in astrology but God does not hate studying stars as signs:

Gen 1:14
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
NASU

The magi could have shown up on Dec. 25th during the next couple of years after Jesus was born. But regardless, the virgin conception could very well have happened on Dec. 25th during Hanakuh.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ April 12 2010,11:08)

Sorry Ed. I didn't really know we were having a discussion.  I was focusing on what LU was saying.  I just didn't find your question as interesting as when some people defend the adoption of paganism.  I did look up and read that scripture.  But I didn't comment on it because I didn't know what to say.  To me, it doesn't seem to represent that.

Hi David,

Thank you for your input.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[JustAskin]

Hi David,
Yellow boxes…

I used the word 'fool' in describing another member ~ ('I Think')!

I was naive the first time and stupidly riled, the second.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ April 11 2010,19:51)

Quote What does it matter anyway, whether it was a tall pole, or a pole with a cross beam.  I think that is ridiculous and does not take away from the event that happened on it.  Do you argue about such unimportant things as to whether or not the manger was a barn or a cave also? The “manger” was definitely not a barn or a cave.  A manger is a food trough.  I often get upset when people think the “manger” was the building they were in.  A manger is a food trough for animals.  You wouldn't believe how many people think the manger was the building.  We are told that it was a “house.”  Back then, they didn't have grocery stores really, or 7-11's.  People had chickens and animals and houses had food troughs, mangers. Anyway, of course, the fact that it happened is infinitely more important than the actual instrument it was carried out on.   BUT, it is also incredibly important not to worship other gods.   And it's incredibly important not to mimic or adopt the customs and religious symbols of those who worshiped these false gods. So, IF the stauros/xylon that Jesus died on was in fact an ordinary stauros/xylon (stake) then that has to make you ask: Where did the cross symbol come from?  The answer is: The worship of false gods. Granted, it is an “if.”  But it is an “if” that if we get wrong, means we are honoring a symbol that Jesus didn't die on and that Jehovah God hates. Quote Good grief…you know that the word “cross” is a possible translation of “stauros” Yes, I know it's possible.  I just don't think it wise to offend God by adopting a pagan religious symbol and connecting it to Jesus sacrificial death, if that is not what he died on.  I think you have to balance the uncertainty with the 'what if I'm wrong' question.

David,
I am sorry that you get angry over such things. I don't think that when people confuse the word manger with a building that God gets mad one bit. I think that He gets mad to see how Christians treat one another and condemn others. Does that make you mad, too?

I also don't think that He gets mad if we misunderstand a stake for a cross or visa versa. I think it makes Him mad when we hate our brother.

I don't think it makes Him mad that we celebrate His Son's arrival on a wrong date or that we celebrate one another's birthdays. I think it makes Him mad when we gossip about our neighbor and slander and don't forgive each other.

I don't think it makes Him mad that we celebrate the resurrection of His Son on Easter. I think it makes Him mad when we get all legalistic and religious and miss the spirit of the message.

Let these little things go David…they will just weigh you down and take your focus away from what really makes God happy:

Mark 12:28-31
“What commandment is the foremost of all?”
29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
31 “The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these.”
NASU

[david]

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Let these little things go David..

Ya, I'm done with this. We really don't know for certain.

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I don't think it makes Him mad that we celebrate the resurrection of His Son on Easter.

The word “easter” is the name of a false God.

Question: What did Jehovah say about false gods?

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I don't think it makes Him mad that we celebrate His Son's arrival on a wrong date

Question: But what if they chose the date that was considered the birthday of the sun god?

How does Jehovah feel about mixing these things together?

What fellowship does light have with darkness? Or what harmony is there between God and false gods?

If you believe God is real, do you not care or consider how he feels about such things?

I'm going to tell you some things, and I wonder if you would find them believable.
'I like you so much LU, I'm going to celebrate your birthday. But instead of celebrating it on your birthdate, I'll celebrate it on Satan's birthdate, and instead of giving you gifts, I'll “exchange gifts” with my friends. I'll also overeat and overdrink, as will my friends.'
What honor would this show to you? I'm just trying to imagine that this is all real, and that God has feelings and that God actually believes what he said about false gods.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ April 12 2010,00:56)

Quote Let these little things go David.. Ya, I'm done with this.  We really don't know for certain. Quote I don't think it makes Him mad that we celebrate the resurrection of His Son on Easter. The word “easter” is the name of a false God. Question: What did Jehovah say about false gods? Quote I don't think it makes Him mad that we celebrate His Son's arrival on a wrong date Question: But what if they chose the date that was considered the birthday of the sun god? How does Jehovah feel about mixing these things together? What fellowship does light have with darkness?  Or what harmony is there between God and false gods? If you believe God is real, do you not care or consider how he feels about such things? I'm going to tell you some things, and I wonder if you would find them believable. 'I like you so much LU, I'm going to celebrate your birthday.  But instead of celebrating it on your birthdate, I'll celebrate it on Satan's birthdate, and instead of giving you gifts, I'll “exchange gifts” with my friends.  I'll also overeat and overdrink, as will my friends.' What honor would this show to you?  I'm just trying to imagine that this is all real, and that God has feelings and that God actually believes what he said about false gods.

Hi David,
Here is an excerpt from a very well written article that I think would help put your mind at ease. Follow the link and read the whole thing, it addresses many of your concerns.

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The Word “Easter” The first issue is the word “Easter” itself. (Of course, this objection is completely irrelevant in many nations, because the word for this Christian spring festival in other languages has no connection with the word “Easter.”) As well, we should remember that the resurrection of Jesus was celebrated in the spring for centuries in Christendom before the word “Easter” was adopted as a label for this festival in the English language. Nonetheless, critics claim that the Word “Easter” is derived from the name of a Germanic goddess of spring, Eastre. The English monk, Venerable Bede, who lived in the eighth century, popularized this view. However, this idea is not at all certain. The King James translators certainly did not understand the word “Easter” in this way when they used it to translate the Greek pascha, or Passover, in Acts 12:4! Another explanation is that Easter derives from an Old German root, ostern, for dawn or east, which is the time and place of the rising sun. This makes more sense as a reason why a day commemorating Jesus’ resurrection would have begun to be called “Easter.” Jesus is thought to have risen around dawn or sunrise on resurrection Sunday (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2). Since he is called “the sun of righteousness” (Malachi 4:2), it would be quite appropriate to call a day in honor of his resurrection, “Easter” – the dawn of the Rising Sun or Son, Jesus. (The Lord God of the Old Testament is called a “sun” in Psalm 84:11.) In any case, even if the word “Easter” was associated with an ancient goddess, it does not mean we cannot use the word today. We have many words in the English language that were connected with ancient gods. For example, our word “cereal” comes from the name of the ancient goddess of agriculture, Ceres. The word “cloth” comes from Clotho, the spinster goddess who was said to spin the thread of life. The word “hymn” is thought to come from the god of marriage, Hymen, and in ancient times meant any song offered in praise or honor of a god or gods. But when we use “hymn” in church services we mean a song sung in praise of the one true God. When we use the word “cereal” we’re not thinking of the goddess or worshipping her, but of corn flakes or granola. Cloth is cloth to us, not Clotho.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/holidays/easter.htm

you said:

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Question: But what if they chose the date that was considered the birthday of the sun god? How does Jehovah feel about mixing these things together? What fellowship does light have with darkness? Or what harmony is there between God and false gods?

Again, the date of Dec. 25th may actually be the date when Mary conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. The conception was the miracle, not the birth. It was the conception that brought the Son of God to earth, not the birth. Isn't it right to celebrate that?

You asked what fellowship does light have with darkness…none and that is one of the purposes of Christ coming as a man. He came to bring fellowship to Jews with Gentiles to form the “one new man.” To have Christ coming celebrated on Dec. 25th probably brought a great awareness to the Gentiles that were celebrating that day for the sun god and Jews that were celebrating Hanakuh at that time. Both groups had to be faced with the new revelation, the Messiah, and decide if He was true or false. I think it is uncanny how all three celebrations are in regards to “light,” don't you? And how the central character to the Christmas story, (Jesus) came to unite the other two groups. Christmas is the “One New Man” holiday. Of course, people can celebrate it well unto the Lord or not well, like anything else.

Christmas has been a positive holiday for my family. It is Christ centered and not Santa centered.

[Elizabeth]

Kathi!   The cross is a symbol that the Catholic Church highly keeps in reverence and is totally wrong.  Whether it is a different cross then what we have today is not as important then as saying it is O.K. to kneel in  front of it and worship… That to me is an abomination to Jehovah God…. Besides they already worship in vain since they believe in a trinity, so there is nothing new that they are going the way of the Heathen, which Jehovah God hates….. So should we then not hate that also?  Yes, as far as
I am concerned.  Everyone of us has to prove to themselves if it is wrong or not…..I hope I did not bypass something since I have not been here for a whole week.  Our Computer had a virus in fact 31 Viruses.  Thanks to our Grandson who is in His last year of College in Computer Engineering, we had no expenses to get it back running again…….  
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Hi Irene,
I'm glad that your computer is healthy again As far as the cross goes, I hope you know that most Christian churches don't worship the cross but just regard it as a memorial to the victory that Christ won on it. God knows the heart. Have you ever forgiven the Catholic church? Maybe that would help you move on and not be so bitter towards them.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 13 2010,07:52)

Hi Irene, I'm glad that your computer is healthy again  As far as the cross goes, I hope you know that most Christian churches don't worship the cross but just regard it as a memorial to the victory that Christ won on it.  God knows the heart.  Have you ever forgiven the Catholic church?  Maybe that would help you move on and not be so bitter towards them.

You are funny…. There is nothing to forgive…. they are wrong and I am forever thankful to God that He called us out of that Church….in fact I still had a Priest Friend who I visited. He however is dead now. So I have no other contact with the Catholic Church…. It is also so long ago….. 25 years ago. Most of the friends we had back then, I have no idea where they live or their New Church, which was down the Street from our old House. Only set foot in the Basement at Festival time to play Bingo….At that time I only seen one person that was the Organist there. Funny because I told Her give me a call and we go out to eat lunch together, and talk about old times. She had just lost Her Husband, She never called. And that too is several years ago now….
Since I am on Oxygen I don't go out unless I have too. One more thing about the cross. Maybe most don't kneel in front of the cross in other Churches, but one member in the Church that our Son goes to, told me that She needed that cross to worship. You think that is wrong? And how many do think that way? We really don't know do we?
Peace and Love Irene

[david]

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In any case, even if the word “Easter” was associated with an ancient goddess, it does not mean we cannot use the word today. We have many words in the English language that were connected with ancient gods.

Sure, we use the word “cereal” and “monday, tuesday, wednesday, etc.” But, is nothing sacred? And if anything is sacred, don't you think it would be Jesus death and resurrection? Why not just take the name Jesus and replace it with Zeus, because Zeus is such a lovely sounding word?

I do not celebrate Easter (definitely connected to the name of a false god), a celebration that seems to focus on easter eggs, and bunny rabbits (both, pagan symbols of fertility). I do memorialize Jesus death, just as he said to do: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” Nothing of injecting pagan customs and calling it by a pagan god! Is anything sacred in your mind?

[Lightenup]

David.
Now read the rest of the excerpt and then try the whole article.

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The first issue is the word “Easter” itself. (Of course, this objection is completely irrelevant in many nations, because the word for this Christian spring festival in other languages has no connection with the word “Easter.”) As well, we should remember that the resurrection of Jesus was celebrated in the spring for centuries in Christendom before the word “Easter” was adopted as a label for this festival in the English language. Nonetheless, critics claim that the Word “Easter” is derived from the name of a Germanic goddess of spring, Eastre. The English monk, Venerable Bede, who lived in the eighth century, popularized this view. However, this idea is not at all certain. The King James translators certainly did not understand the word “Easter” in this way when they used it to translate the Greek pascha, or Passover, in Acts 12:4! Another explanation is that Easter derives from an Old German root, ostern, for dawn or east, which is the time and place of the rising sun. This makes more sense as a reason why a day commemorating Jesus’ resurrection would have begun to be called “Easter.” Jesus is thought to have risen around dawn or sunrise on resurrection Sunday (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2). Since he is called “the sun of righteousness” (Malachi 4:2), it would be quite appropriate to call a day in honor of his resurrection, “Easter” – the dawn of the Rising Sun or Son, Jesus. (The Lord God of the Old Testament is called a “sun” in Psalm 84:11.)

[princess of the king]

Actually LU, your information is bias, the account given is to ensure that ones that celebrate easter in christianity and therefore are correct in their traditions of the festival.

Studying the origins are quite to say the least exhausting. A cartoon once summed it up, Jesus meets the Easter Bunny, once again two religions are joined to create another, to keep the peace so to speak.

Hence, the egg: ancient sign of fertility or life, the rabbit due to its explicit mating habits, celebration time spring when all are twitterpated (for the use of a better term).

Mainly, this time is to give homage to sex and fertility. For in ancient times with the chances of still born births, women who were expecting gave extra offerings (sweet foods) to such gods, for a child born and for one to pass the age of two or four, cannot remember which.

It is for one to decide, just do not be so naive that most traditions of men came from long ago.

[Lightenup]

Quote (princess of the king @ April 13 2010,20:47)

Actually LU, your information is bias, the account given is to ensure that ones that celebrate easter in christianity and therefore are correct in their traditions of the festival. Studying the origins are quite to say the least exhausting. A cartoon once summed it up, Jesus meets the Easter Bunny, once again two religions are joined to create another, to keep the peace so to speak. Hence, the egg: ancient sign of fertility or life, the rabbit due to its explicit mating habits, celebration time spring when all are twitterpated (for the use of a better term). Mainly, this time is to give homage to sex and fertility. For in ancient times with the chances of still born births, women who were expecting gave extra offerings (sweet foods) to such gods, for a child born and for one to pass the age of two or four, cannot remember which. It is for one to decide, just do not be so naive that most traditions of men came from long ago.

Actually princess, we could use some more info like this article:

http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/holidays/easter.htm

to bring some sense to the pagan custom hunters out there.

Let's have some more God seeking hunters, what do ya say?

“twitterpated” funny

Ok, so here is a joke:
What was the rooster crowing about during those three times on Passover when Peter denied Christ?

The bunny was hiding the eggs. (Who says Easter isn't about Easter Bunnies)

Just kidding!

[princess of the king]

Pagan hunters, LOL I can understand why you would feel this way, some do come across a bit harsh.

The article however, does acknowledge the origins, then in turn gives christians the authority to go ahead and celebrate. Nothing new under the sun LU.

All the same LU, it is your choice. Backing up what some church fellow tells you, is fine with me, many do this. Study and find thy self approved is also good advice.

Take Care LU, hoppy ishtar.

[Elizabeth]

Kathi!  Easter is just another Pagan Holy Day like Christmas.  The Bible does not say that we should keep it.  However we are to keep Passover which mainstream Christianity ignores.  Interesting indeed….
Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (princess of the king @ April 13 2010,22:10)

Pagan hunters, LOL I can understand why you would feel this way, some do come across a bit harsh. The article however, does acknowledge the origins, then in turn gives christians the authority to go ahead and celebrate. Nothing new under the sun LU. All the same LU, it is your choice. Backing up what some church fellow tells you, is fine with me, many do this. Study and find thy self approved is also good advice. Take Care LU, hoppy ishtar.

Ya know Princess,
If you want to acknowledge pagan customs and give them power and control who am I to keep you. However, Jesus really did rise from the dead and Christians celebrate the Passover by celebrating the First Fruits which is Jesus' resurrection. Passover was a spring season event. I am sure that satan would like to mess with Christians who celebrate Easter by associating it with ishtar but I refuse to let him have any power over the Christian's celebration. Many countries celebrate with us and do not call it Easter in their language. So, how can the name be related to ishtar. The name Easter came first before the fairy tales that you want to believe in. Easter and ishtar both have a t and a r in the word…big deal. Easter has the word “east” and the sun rises in the east, and Jesus rose just before sunrise…hence “Easter.” The rising of the Son!

Think lovely thoughts! Seek God in things and think upon that which is good. God says, “When you seek me, you'll find me when you seek me with all of your heart.”

Jer 29:13
13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
NASU

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