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Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2010,01:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2010,16:50) terraricca,
I first heard of it today while listening to a CD about Covenant knowledge and then I googled it and found many sites saying the same thing. I didn't find scriptural references about it. They say that it was a well known custom for the Jews. If I ever come across a Biblical reference, I will try to remember to let you know.
LUthe reason i ask you is that i never came across that practice .
and it may be a pagan practice ,practice in Canaan.
terraricca,
Google it yourself…do some research on it. I heard it from a pastor regarding Jewish covenant practice. It is listed in several websites so I am sure that you can find more scholarly info on it.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2010,18:41) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 27 2010,02:31) Even if there was such a tradition of planting a memorial tree; how can you draw a connection between that tree, and a cross made from two beams that Jesus died on? Georg
I don't think it is so much of a stretch Georg. The cross was beams from a tree with the blood splattered on it from the sacrifice. Google “the nine steps of the blood covenant” and see what you come up with. Anyway, the cross is a memorial symbol for most, for the covenant made. A memorial symbol with blood splattered on it apparently was the common tradition.
Hi Lightenup,What gives? Cross or no Cross?
Please answer each of the following Scriptures, If you believe it is referring to a “Cross” or no?Prob.7:22?
Isaiah 40:24?
Isaiah 44:19?
Isaiah 45:20?
Jer.2:27?
Jer.50:38?
Hab.2:19?
Zech.5:1-4?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2010,03:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2010,18:41) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 27 2010,02:31) Even if there was such a tradition of planting a memorial tree; how can you draw a connection between that tree, and a cross made from two beams that Jesus died on? Georg
I don't think it is so much of a stretch Georg. The cross was beams from a tree with the blood splattered on it from the sacrifice. Google “the nine steps of the blood covenant” and see what you come up with. Anyway, the cross is a memorial symbol for most, for the covenant made. A memorial symbol with blood splattered on it apparently was the common tradition.
Hi Lightenup,What gives? Cross or no Cross?
Please answer each of the following Scriptures, If you believe it is referring to a “Cross” or no?Prob.7:22?
Isaiah 40:24?
Isaiah 44:19?
Isaiah 45:20?
Jer.2:27?
Jer.50:38?
Hab.2:19?
Zech.5:1-4?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdJ,Quote Prov 7:22
22 Suddenly he follows her As an ox goes to the slaughter, Or as one in fetters to the discipline of a fool,
NASUIsa 40:24
24 Scarcely have they been planted, Scarcely have they been sown, Scarcely has their stock taken root in the earth, But He merely blows on them, and they wither, And the storm carries them away like stubble.
NASUIsa 44:19
19 No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, “I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals. I roast meat and eat it. Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!”
NASUIsa 45:19-20
20 “Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol And pray to a god who cannot save.
NASUJer 2:27
27 Who say to a tree, 'You are my father,' And to a stone, 'You gave me birth.' For they have turned their back to Me, And not their face; But in the time of their trouble they will say, 'Arise and save us.'
NASUJer 50:38
38 “A drought on her waters, and they will be dried up! For it is a land of idols, And they are mad over fearsome idols.
NASUHab 2:19
19 “Woe to him who says to a piece of wood, 'Awake!' To a mute stone, 'Arise!' And that is your teacher? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, And there is no breath at all inside it.
NASUZech 5:1-4
5 Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, there was a flying scroll.
2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” And I answered, “I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits.”
3 Then he said to me, “This is the curse that is going forth over the face of the whole land; surely everyone who steals will be purged away according to the writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according to the writing on the other side.
4 “I will make it go forth,” declares the Lord of hosts, “and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name; and it will spend the night within that house and consume it with its timber and stones.”
NASUThese verses have nothing to do with the cross or a memorial tree planted for a covenant.
The only cross that is upsetting to me is the one in the Catholic Church. That indeed is an image. The image of Christ. We are not to make any image whether on earth or in Heaven…. And they worship that cross, especially on good Friday when they venerate the cross and kiss it….All other crosses came out of the Catholic Church. It was the first Church, and it was called the Roman Universal Church, which means Catholic Church….Is it an abomination to God, yes I do believe that…
IreneI would like to point out that, besides almost worshiping the instrument of Jesus' torturous death being wrong, we're not really sure he died on a “cross.”
(For Lighten up, yes, it was the “stauros” (Gk) that killed him, not nails in his hands. Put nails in someones hands, and see if they die. It was hanging on this stauros, this form of torture, that killed him.)
STAUROS
The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions is stauroś. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.
The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stauroś], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
Douglas’ New Bible Dictionary of 1985 under “Cross,” page 253: “The Gk. word for ‘cross’ (stauros; verb stauroo . . . ) means primarily an upright stake or beam, and secondarily a stake used as an instrument for punishment and execution.”
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1979) states under the heading “Cross”: “Originally Gk. staurós designated a pointed, vertical wooden stake firmly fixed in the ground. . . . They were positioned side by side in rows to form fencing or defensive palisades around settlements, or singly they were set up as instruments of torture on which serious offenders of law were publicly suspended to die (or, if already killed, to have their corpses thoroughly dishonored).”XYLON
The fact that Luke, Peter, and Paul also used xýlon as a synonym for stauroś gives added evidence that Jesus was impaled on an upright stake without a crossbeam, for that is what xýlon in this special sense means. (Ac 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Ga 3:13; 1Pe 2:24)
For example, Acts 5:30 refers to “hanging him on a tree.” 1 Peter 2:24 says “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”
Numerous translators of the Christian Greek Scriptures therefore translate Peter’s words at Acts 5:30 to read: “The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew, hanging him upon a stake [or, “tree,” according to the King James Version, New International Version, The Jerusalem Bible, and Revised Standard Version].” You might also wish to check how your Bible translates xýlon.Xýlon also occurs in the Greek Septuagint at Ezra 6:11, where it speaks of a single beam or timber on which a lawbreaker was to be impaled.
EZRA 6:11
“And by me an order has been put through that, as for anybody that violates this decree, a timber will be pulled out of his house and he will be impaled upon it, and his house will be turned into a public privy on this account.”Go check and see if your Bible translates xylon as “cross” in the above scripture. Of course, that is ridiculous. It is referring to a single beam, a stake, which just so happens to be the primary meaning of “stauros.”
A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines xýlon as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xýlon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.)
CRUX
True, the Romans did use an instrument of execution known in Latin as the crux. And in translating the Bible into Latin, this word crux was used as a rendering of stauroś. Because the Latin word crux and the English word cross are similar, many mistakenly assume that a crux was necessarily a stake with a crossbeam. However, The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says: “Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and this always remained the more prominent part.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
Christ could well have been impaled on a form of crux (stauroś) known as the crux simplex. That was how such a stake was illustrated by the Roman Catholic scholar Justus Lipsius of the 16th century
The Latin dictionary by Lewis and Short gives as the basic meaning of crux “a tree, frame, or other wooden instruments of execution, on which criminals were impaled or hanged.” In the writings of Livy, a Roman historian of the first century B.C.E., crux means a mere stake. “Cross” is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux siḿplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19.The reason none of this matters is that tradition is more important that truth. And tradition for the most part has Jesus on a cross.
'But if he died on a stake, how did it come to be that people think he died on a cross.'
Just like Christmas (dies solis natalis invicti) and Easter (Eoustra, name of a god), and the trinity, which came from babylon, the symbol of the cross also comes from paganism. It was the popular symbol before Christ. So it was injected into the story, just as Christ was injected into The Roman Saturnalia, etc.
“The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century.” (B.M. Metzger, M.D. Coogan, “The Oxford Companion to the Bible,” Oxford University Press, (1993), Page 57)
The earliest Christians, yes, the true ones, thought the cross a pagan symbol.
“THE sign of the cross has been a symbol of great antiquity, present in nearly every known culture. Its meaning has eluded anthropologists, though its use in funerary art could well point to a defense against evil. On the other hand, the famous crux ansata of Egypt, depicted coming from the mouth, must refer to life or breath. The universal use of the sign of the cross makes more poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains, especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most scholars now agree that the cross, as an artistic reference to the passion event, cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine.”—Ante Pacem—Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine (1985), by Professor Graydon F. Snyder, page 27.
The cross or various forms of the cross have been worshiped way before Jesus died on a stauros/xylon (a stake). Yes, that is what those two words seem to mean. Your xylophone isn't made out of crosses, it's made out of single straight pieces of wood.
A PAGAN SYMBOL
The cross has been used through history as an object of pagan worship and of superstitious awe. (Compare 1 Cor 10:15; 1 John 5:21)
“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.
“It is strange, yet unquestionably a fact, that in ages long before the birth of Christ, and since then in lands untouched by the teaching of the Church, the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. . . . The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolised to their votaries by a cruciform device.”—The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900), G. S. Tyack, p. 1.
“The cross in the form of the ‘Crux Ansata’ . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called ‘the Sign of Life.’”—The Worship of the Dead (London, 1904), Colonel J. Garnier, p. 226.
“Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus.”—A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17; see also The Non-Christian Cross, p. 183.
“These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, [see book], and are first seen on a coin of Julius Cæsar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Cæsar’s heir (Augustus), 20 B.C. On the coins of Constantine the most frequent symbol is [See book]; but the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal; and this was the symbol specially venerated as the ‘Solar Wheel’. It should be stated that Constantine was a sun-god worshipper, and would not enter the ‘Church’ till some quarter of a century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens.”—The Companion Bible, Appendix No. 162; see also The Non-Christian Cross, pp. 133-141.
As the Encylcopedia britannica says, “The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times” may “be regarded as almost universal.“
“THE sign of the cross has been a symbol of great antiquity, present in nearly every known culture.“–Ante Pacim, p 27 (see above)If everyone seemed to be worshiping that image, and if “Fake Christianity” loves to incorporate pagan things into their worship to get more recruits, why not take that most famous image, the cross?
Why the Christmas tree? Why the lights? Why the date itself? Why the cross?
ANSWER:
“Christianity” takes from paganism. . . . It is what it does.Quote (david @ April 09 2010,18:33) Thoughts?
Hi David,Do you think Zech.5:1-4 represents a 'cross' inside of church buildings?
Ed J
Quote (david @ April 09 2010,18:33) Thoughts?
hi davidit is very good but elementary,and basic
the true knowledge lays way deeper in Christ resurrection.
it is seen that on this site more knowledge of words and combination of words are the issue rather than true knowledge.
by that i do not say that this knowledge is not useful but basic.
People, why do you speak of the pagan meanings of things when God has given us trees and land, planets and stars, days and months. Focus on the God who made the heaven and earth and all that is in heaven and earth. Seek first the kingdom of God and not the kingdom of darkness. Let the Christian meaning be upon your thoughts and give no power to the pagan meaning. Or next are you going to tell us not to gaze upon the planets and stars because their names are sometimes derived from pagan gods and goddesses, i.e. Mars and Venus for example. And then are you going to tell us not to enjoy our days because they are also named after pagan gods and goddesses:
Sunday-the Sun god.
Monday-after the moon goddess.
Tuesday-after the god Tyr.
Wednesday-after the god Odin.
Thursday-named after the god Thor.
Friday-after the goddess Frigga.
Saturday-after the god Saturn.And then don't even think of stepping foot into Athens, GA or Athens, TN or Athens, Greece, etc. since they get their name from Athena, a Greek goddess. Heaven forbid that you attend church in one of these areas…oh my!!! Of course I am being sarcastic. God made the land…let your focus dwell on Him and do not give power to pagan meanings. Pagan gods are nothing…no power…unless you give it to them. Get rid of pagan focus. If your focus is on the paganism you make them idols. Let your focus be on God.
Lightenup, your statements are sort of a false argument.
I'm saying that Jesus died on a “stauros” also referred to 5 times as “xylon.”
The primary meaning of stauros is “stake” and the meaning of xylon is “timber.”
In your words, “Google it yourself…do some research on it.”
What I'm saying is that if we only look at what the Bible says, and take the “popular is right” or “tradition is right” argument away, then the facts lean strongly towards Jesus dying on an upright stake or timber.
Which leaves the question: Why did the cross become so popular a belief?
The answer: Because it has always been so, long before Christ died on a stauros/xylon. The cross, or various forms of the cross are pagan in nature, and it is an insanely indisputable fact that fake Christianity likes to borrow customs (and symbols it appears) from paganism.
My question to you Lightenup:
1. Is it ok to do this, to adopt and borrow pagan customs?
Things to consider:
1 CORINTHIANS 10:20-22
“I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons. Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?”2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-17
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””JER 2:3
“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain”2. What harmony is there between true Christianity paganism? None.
3. What sharing does true worship have with lies? None.
Lightenup, another question: Would you answer these two questions differently?
Of course Jesus sacrificial death meant everything. But do you think Jesus enjoys the fact that people took his birth and moved it to the birth of a pagan sun god? (Dec 25th?)
Do you think Jesus would like the idea of taking his death, and attaching a pagan symbol to it, if he in fact did not die on a cross, but rather died on a stauros / xylon.You can say “Hitler” or “paganism” or whatever has no power over you.
But imagine that some “Christians” decided december 25th was the wrong day to celebrate Jesus birth. (In fact it is the wrong day.) Suppose they decided that in order to gain more nazi type people to Christianity, they would now celebrate Jesus' birthday on HITLER'S birthday.
Both Hitler and the pagan sun god are bad. Can you not see that at the very least, it is in extremely bad taste to do such a thing?What makes it worse, is that In ancient Israel, unfaithful Jews wept over the death of the false god Tammuz. Jehovah spoke of what they were doing as being a ‘detestable thing.’ (Ezek. 8:13, 14) According to history, Tammuz was a Babylonian god, and the cross was used as his symbol. From its beginning in the days of Nimrod, Babylon was against Jehovah and an enemy of true worship. (Gen. 10:8-10; Jer. 50:29) So by cherishing the cross, a person is honoring a symbol of worship that is opposed to the true God.
Babylon the Great is the symbol of false religion, and it's no coincidence that many pagan and false religious beliefs and symbols originated in ancient Babylon. They spread, and changed, and were altered. The cross seems to be one such symbol.
Quote (terraricca @ April 10 2010,01:59) Quote (david @ April 09 2010,18:33) Thoughts?
hi davidit is very good but elementary,and basic
the true knowledge lays way deeper in Christ resurrection.
it is seen that on this site more knowledge of words and combination of words are the issue rather than true knowledge.
by that i do not say that this knowledge is not useful but basic.
Hi.
If it is something that most people either don't know or don't believe, then I don't think it can be described as “elementary and basic.”I think what you are saying or implying is that it probably doesn't matter, and the important thing is that he died for us.
That is unquestionably more important than studying exactly how he died or exactly what he died on. I agree.
But still, if he didn't die on a cross, then the use of the cross is just another thing adopted from something God hates: paganism.
Quote (david @ April 09 2010,23:11) Lightenup, your statements are sort of a false argument. I'm saying that Jesus died on a “stauros” also referred to 5 times as “xylon.”
The primary meaning of stauros is “stake” and the meaning of xylon is “timber.”
In your words, “Google it yourself…do some research on it.”
What I'm saying is that if we only look at what the Bible says, and take the “popular is right” or “tradition is right” argument away, then the facts lean strongly towards Jesus dying on an upright stake or timber.
Which leaves the question: Why did the cross become so popular a belief?
The answer: Because it has always been so, long before Christ died on a stauros/xylon. The cross, or various forms of the cross are pagan in nature, and it is an insanely indisputable fact that fake Christianity likes to borrow customs (and symbols it appears) from paganism.
My question to you Lightenup:
1. Is it ok to do this, to adopt and borrow pagan customs?
Things to consider:
1 CORINTHIANS 10:20-22
“I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons. Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?”2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-17
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””JER 2:3
“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain”2. What harmony is there between true Christianity paganism? None.
3. What sharing does true worship have with lies? None.
Lightenup, another question: Would you answer these two questions differently?
Of course Jesus sacrificial death meant everything. But do you think Jesus enjoys the fact that people took his birth and moved it to the birth of a pagan sun god? (Dec 25th?)
Do you think Jesus would like the idea of taking his death, and attaching a pagan symbol to it, if he in fact did not die on a cross, but rather died on a stauros / xylon.You can say “Hitler” or “paganism” or whatever has no power over you.
But imagine that some “Christians” decided december 25th was the wrong day to celebrate Jesus birth. (In fact it is the wrong day.) Suppose they decided that in order to gain more nazi type people to Christianity, they would now celebrate Jesus' birthday on HITLER'S birthday.
Both Hitler and the pagan sun god are bad. Can you not see that at the very least, it is in extremely bad taste to do such a thing?What makes it worse, is that In ancient Israel, unfaithful Jews wept over the death of the false god Tammuz. Jehovah spoke of what they were doing as being a ‘detestable thing.’ (Ezek. 8:13, 14) According to history, Tammuz was a Babylonian god, and the cross was used as his symbol. From its beginning in the days of Nimrod, Babylon was against Jehovah and an enemy of true worship. (Gen. 10:8-10; Jer. 50:29) So by cherishing the cross, a person is honoring a symbol of worship that is opposed to the true God.
Babylon the Great is the symbol of false religion, and it's no coincidence that many pagan and false religious beliefs and symbols originated in ancient Babylon. They spread, and changed, and were altered. The cross seems to be one such symbol.
David,You said:
Quote The primary meaning of stauros is “stake” and the meaning of xylon is “timber.” The secondary meaning of stauros is “cross.” So Jesus died on the stauros with the secondary meaning.
Quote What I'm saying is that if we only look at what the Bible says, and take the “popular is right” or “tradition is right” argument away, then the facts lean strongly towards Jesus dying on an upright stake or timber. satan witnessed the cross and satanists turn the cross upside down…it is not an upside down pole that they mock. If the cross is an abomination to the Lord, satanists wouldn't turn it upside down.
Quote Why did the cross become so popular a belief? Because Jesus died on the cross, not a straight pole.
Quote The cross, or various forms of the cross are pagan in nature, and it is an insanely indisputable fact that fake Christianity likes to borrow customs (and symbols it appears) from paganism. “Fake Christianity”…what a judgement on those that wear a cross. A very good reason not to pay any attention to you on this. When I see someone wearing a cross, I think thoughts that are good. Do you just think judgemental thoughts when you see this? Yuk!
The cross is mentioned more than 30 times in the NT and never as a pagan symbol or a symbol that God hates. It is spoken of as something we should “take up” not deteste.
You say that Christianity likes to borrow customs from pagans, you mean like pagans build temples and Christians build churches. Jesus called us the temple of the Holy Spirit, Solomon built the Temple that God showed him. Good grief, where does it end. Pagans sacrificed animals, Jews sacrificed animals. Wasn't God the author of animal sacrifice? There are similarities of customs but different meanings…look at the Christian meanings, not the pagan meanings.
Quote 1. Is it ok to do this, to adopt and borrow pagan customs? Not if you adhere to the pagan meanings. Meanings can be completely different between the followers of satan and the followers of God. Followers of satan worship, followers of God worship…same custom, completely different focuses. See what I mean??
Quote 1 CORINTHIANS 10:20-22
“I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I do not want you to become s
harers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons. Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?”This has nothing to do with the cross.
Quote 2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-17
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””Again, we are told by Jesus to take up our cross, so your verse has nothing to do with the Christian cross.
Quote 2. What harmony is there between true Christianity paganism? None. The Christian cross has nothing to do with any pagan cross.
Quote 3. What sharing does true worship have with lies? The cross is a true meaning of the Greek word used.
Quote But do you think Jesus enjoys the fact that people took his birth and moved it to the birth of a pagan sun god? (Dec 25th?) Dec. 25th could have very well been the date that the virgin conception happened and a year later, the wise men visited. It also is likely the day that Hanukah began that year. Christmas isn't just about a birth but about a story that begins and ends with the conception and the wise men's visit. Do you think God was mad at the wise men that came late to celebrate the birth? Important things happened during Jewish holidays. A virgin conception and wise men bringing gifts could very well have both happened on Dec. 25 during Hanukah.
Jesus's coming was to bring the Jews and the Gentiles together to become the “one new man.” I think it is interesting to plan the miraculous conception when the Son of God, the Light of the World, was sent to earth in the womb to be both on a Jewish holiday and a Gentile holiday and both be about light. Christmas is the “one new man” holiday…the virgin conception and birth began the coming together of Jew and Gentile after all.
Quote What makes it worse, is that In ancient Israel, unfaithful Jews wept over the death of the false god Tammuz. Jehovah spoke of what they were doing as being a ‘detestable thing.’ God never speaks about the Christian cross as a detestable thing. Jesus keeps using the term “cross” as a figurative term and not in a detestable way at all.
Luke 9:23
23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
NASU
Luke 14:27
27 “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple
NASU
1 Cor 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
NASU
1 Cor 1:18
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
NASU
Gal 6:14
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NASU
Eph 2:15-16
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
NASU
Phil 3:17-18
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
NASUAre you an enemy of the cross of Christ? You seem to detest it!
Quote The secondary meaning of stauros is “cross.” So Jesus died on the stauros with the secondary meaning. On what do you base that? Popularity?
And what is the secondary meaning of xylon? There is no secondary meaning. 5 times the instrument of Jesus death is simply referred to as xylon (timber, a single beam of wood.)
Quote satan witnessed the cross and satanists turn the cross upside down…it is not an upside down pole that they mock. If the cross is an abomination to the Lord, satanists wouldn't turn it upside down. Well by all means, let's believe Satan over the Bible. He can be trusted. Your argument is popularity and tradition, and you are coming up with weird things to defend it. But if your logic here made sense, then what of the pagans who worship false gods, and who also worship the cross or various crosses? (If some satanists turning the cross upside down is proof of something, then what are worshipers of false gods proving with their 'right side up' crosses?)
Quote Because Jesus died on the cross, not a straight pole.
You base this only on tradition. I could similarily ask: Why do we celebrate Jesus birth on Dec 25th? Would you say: “Because he was born on that day.”?
Tradition and popular belief are not always correct. Is it better to go with the Bible or tradition?Quote “Fake Christianity”…what a judgement on those that wear a cross. A very good reason not to pay any attention to you on this. When I see someone wearing a cross, I think thoughts that are good. Do you just think judgemental thoughts when you see this? Yuk! Nice diversion tactic. I don't think judgemental thoughts when I see that. I don't really think anything when I see someone wearing a cross. It might be just for looks or it might be because they grew up Catholic and don't know any better or it might be because they don't know what xylon and stauros mean and they don't care to find out…. I don't try to figure it out.
But what I said, again, which you ignored, was:Quote it is an insanely indisputable fact that fake Christianity likes to borrow customs (and symbols it appears) from paganism.
I was not here saying that people who wear a cross are fake Christians. I was pointing out the obvious fact that fake Christians like to adopt pagan symbols and customs into their worship. Hard to disagree with that, after picking up an encyclopedia.Quote The cross is mentioned more than 30 times in the NT and never as a pagan symbol or a symbol that God hates. It is spoken of as something we should “take up” not deteste. Quote Again, we are told by Jesus to take up our cross, so your verse has nothing to do with the Christian cross. HELLO CIRCULAR REASONING. “stauros” and “xylon” are mentioned, not the english word “cross.”
Many times in the Bible we are given the principle that mixing true worship with false worship or paganism is bad. Hence, if the reason that tradition holds that Jesus died on a cross, is because “Christianity” of the time wanted more converts and since they already worshiped a cross, why not use the same symbol….that is a bad reason.Quote The Christian cross has nothing to do with any pagan cross.
You seem to refuse to want to answer any questions.Before you said:
Quote Pagan gods are nothing…no power…unless you give it to them. Get rid of pagan focus.
So let me ask you again, simply, (not even about the cross, but more generally): Is it wrong to mix paganism with true worship? If it is wrong to focus on paganism, it must be doubly wrong to adopt it into your worship of God, and then accept it as pure true worship. Isn't it?Quote You say that Christianity likes to borrow customs from pagans, you mean like pagans build temples and Christians build churches.
No, I don't mean like that at all. I mentioned Christmas as an obvious example. How about Halloween. How about the word easter? How about the cross?Quote Dec. 25th could have very well been the date that the virgin conception happened
As you know, based on the Bible, there are about 5 reasons dec 25th can not be Jesus birth though. Every book in existence will tell you the same. So, why do we celebrate his birth on dec 25th? Because it was already a popular pagan custom to “exchange” gifts on that day, the day of the sun god.Quote Do you think God was mad at the wise men that came late to celebrate the birth?
First, they were magoi, or magi, astrologers. Stop calling them “wise men.” They were chaldean astrologers, (God hates astrology, check Deuteronomy.) They were not directed there by God, because first they were brought to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus. Would God use astrology (something he condemns) to direct magoi first to Herod, who wanted Jesus dead? HARDLY! Again, you confuse Satan with God.Quote A virgin conception and wise men bringing gifts could very well have both happened on Dec. 25 during Hanukah.
Based on the Bible, if you read a little more, you'll find the magi visited the “young child” in the “house” where he was then staying. This is likely a couple years later, based on the calculations Herod made in killing all the children 2 years and younger. If the baby was an infant, why spec
ify two years and younger. Notice the Bible makes mention of the specific calculations from what Herod discerned from the astrologers. This is why we can't just blindly follow the crowd or tradition. Tradition is often wrong. Go with what the Bible says, over what satanists do, or over what tradition holds.Quote God never speaks about the Christian cross as a detestable thing. Jesus keeps using the term “cross” as a figurative term and not in a detestable way at all.
No, he used “stauros” and “xylon” as a figurative term. He never spoke English.Quote Are you an enemy of the cross of Christ? You seem to detest it! You continue to set up false arguments. I am an enemy of paganism. As is God. As you should be, but don't seem to be. I am not an enemy of the “xylon” (literally, “timber, beam, stake”) Christ died on.
I am an enemy of those who oppose the Bible, and those who hold tradition above true knowledge. But I cannot believe you are one of those people.
LU,
Your post at the top of page 10, is the most amazing post, taken by itself, that I have ever seen you post.
Congratulations!
Do you notice that you were in the Spirit when you wrote it?
You made no mention of Jesus (as God or an equal or aspect of adoration and worship) and focussed on the One Who Is Who He Is.
(I emphasise that I say, 'taken by itself')
David,
How about supporting what LU has posted before going on to make your valid correction statements and suggestions, which are outside of the content of that specific post by LU?
Give credit to good works, support good works and win over those seeking truth but are slighty odf track.
Sorry LU, you then posted about embracing the symbol of the Cross, which is a symbol of worship by Pagans and the Abominator and creator and sustainer if the Trinitarian doctrine.
Wearing the symbol of Jesus' suffering… When Jesus said 'Take up your Cross (or stake, whatever) He meant, 'Take up the metaphorical Cross of physical and mental suffering as He did and prepare to die as a sacrifice for the remission of sins of yourself and of your brothers – follow Me, follow My example'
Wearing the Cross is similar to pious Jews wearing Sackcloth and Ashes and sayig long and loud prayers to God to show their fellows how well they could appear Godly, but it was mostly for show!
What did Jesus say about them, please?
LU, notice this: What true symbol of Worship of the one God would Satan seek to emulate or adopt?
What, and how many ways has the Cross been used and abused by the naive or by evil doers?If the Cross was Godly, how would they adopt it, does Satan love God?
Quote (david @ April 10 2010,20:24) Quote The secondary meaning of stauros is “cross.” So Jesus died on the stauros with the secondary meaning. On what do you base that? Popularity?
And what is the secondary meaning of xylon? There is no secondary meaning. 5 times the instrument of Jesus death is simply referred to as xylon (timber, a single beam of wood.)
Quote satan witnessed the cross and satanists turn the cross upside down…it is not an upside down pole that they mock. If the cross is an abomination to the Lord, satanists wouldn't turn it upside down. Well by all means, let's believe Satan over the Bible. He can be trusted. Your argument is popularity and tradition, and you are coming up with weird things to defend it. But if your logic here made sense, then what of the pagans who worship false gods, and who also worship the cross or various crosses? (If some satanists turning the cross upside down is proof of something, then what are worshipers of false gods proving with their 'right side up' crosses?)
Quote Because Jesus died on the cross, not a straight pole.
You base this only on tradition. I could similarily ask: Why do we celebrate Jesus birth on Dec 25th? Would you say: “Because he was born on that day.”?
Tradition and popular belief are not always correct. Is it better to go with the Bible or tradition?Quote “Fake Christianity”…what a judgement on those that wear a cross. A very good reason not to pay any attention to you on this. When I see someone wearing a cross, I think thoughts that are good. Do you just think judgemental thoughts when you see this? Yuk! Nice diversion tactic. I don't think judgemental thoughts when I see that. I don't really think anything when I see someone wearing a cross. It might be just for looks or it might be because they grew up Catholic and don't know any better or it might be because they don't know what xylon and stauros mean and they don't care to find out…. I don't try to figure it out.
But what I said, again, which you ignored, was:Quote it is an insanely indisputable fact that fake Christianity likes to borrow customs (and symbols it appears) from paganism.
I was not here saying that people who wear a cross are fake Christians. I was pointing out the obvious fact that fake Christians like to adopt pagan symbols and customs into their worship. Hard to disagree with that, after picking up an encyclopedia.Quote The cross is mentioned more than 30 times in the NT and never as a pagan symbol or a symbol that God hates. It is spoken of as something we should “take up” not deteste. Quote Again, we are told by Jesus to take up our cross, so your verse has nothing to do with the Christian cross. HELLO CIRCULAR REASONING. “stauros” and “xylon” are mentioned, not the english word “cross.”
Many times in the Bible we are given the principle that mixing true worship with false worship or paganism is bad. Hence, if the reason that tradition holds that Jesus died on a cross, is because “Christianity” of the time wanted more converts and since they already worshiped a cross, why not use the same symbol….that is a bad reason.Quote The Christian cross has nothing to do with any pagan cross.
You seem to refuse to want to answer any questions.Before you said:
Quote Pagan gods are nothing…no power…unless you give it to them. Get rid of pagan focus.
So let me ask you again, simply, (not even about the cross, but more generally): Is it wrong to mix paganism with true worship? If it is wrong to focus on paganism, it must be doubly wrong to adopt it into your worship of God, and then accept it as pure true worship. Isn't it?Quote You say that Christianity likes to borrow customs from pagans, you mean like pagans build temples and Christians build churches.
No, I don't mean like that at all. I mentioned Christmas as an obvious example. How about Halloween. How about the word easter? How about the cross?Quote Dec. 25th could have very well been the date that the virgin conception happened
As you know, based on the Bible, there are about 5 reasons dec 25th can not be Jesus birth though. Every book in existence will tell you the same. So, why do we celebrate his birth on dec 25th? Because it was already a popular pagan custom to “exchange” gifts on that day, the day of the sun god.Quote Do you think God was mad at the wise men that came late to celebrate the birth?
First, they were magoi, or magi, astrologers. Stop calling them “wise men.” They were chaldean astrologers, (God hates astrology, check Deuteronomy.) They were not directed there by God, because first they were brought to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus. Would God use astrology (something he condemns) to direct magoi first to Herod, who wanted Jesus dead? HARDLY! Again, you confuse Satan with God.Quote A virgin conception and wise men bringing gifts could very well have both happened on Dec. 25 during Hanukah.
Based on the Bible, if you read a little more, you'll find the magi visited the
“young child” in the “house” where he was then staying. This is likely a couple years later, based on the calculations Herod made in killing all the children 2 years and younger. If the baby was an infant, why specify two years and younger. Notice the Bible makes mention of the specific calculations from what Herod discerned from the astrologers. This is why we can't just blindly follow the crowd or tradition. Tradition is often wrong. Go with what the Bible says, over what satanists do, or over what tradition holds.Quote God never speaks about the Christian cross as a detestable thing. Jesus keeps using the term “cross” as a figurative term and not in a detestable way at all.
No, he used “stauros” and “xylon” as a figurative term. He never spoke English.Quote Are you an enemy of the cross of Christ? You seem to detest it! You continue to set up false arguments. I am an enemy of paganism. As is God. As you should be, but don't seem to be. I am not an enemy of the “xylon” (literally, “timber, beam, stake”) Christ died on.
I am an enemy of those who oppose the Bible, and those who hold tradition above true knowledge. But I cannot believe you are one of those people.
Hi David,You avoided answering my question to you: as is your habit. I will try again…
Do you think Zech.5:1-4 represents a 'cross' inside buildings?
Blessings
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgSorry Ed.
I didn't really know we were having a discussion. I was focusing on what LU was saying. I just didn't find your question as interesting as when some people defend the adoption of paganism. I did look up and read that scripture. But I didn't comment on it because I didn't know what to say. To me, it doesn't seem to represent that.Quote David, How about supporting what LU has posted before going on to make your valid correction statements and suggestions, which are outside of the content of that specific post by LU?
Give credit to good works, support good works and win over those seeking truth but are slighty odf track.
Hi Justaskin,
yes, I am rough around the edges and everything I say should be accompanied by encouragement first, but sadly it is not. I'm just so used to speaking with certain types on here, that I forget the agreement and focus on the disagreement.
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