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Hi,
I got a few points about the cross and resurrection.
1. If Jesus is not God, then how could He have paid the penalty for the elect/world's sin? No man can ransom another. Even if Jesus were some super duper angel or heavenly being, if the guilt of just one sinner were imputed to Him, he could not have absorbed the wrath of God for it.
2. If Jesus is not God, then why was it necessary for Him to rise from the dead (Luke 2:24)? Do you believe that, but for the command of the Father, Jesus could have remained dead?
Tim
Tim2, if God created all things through Christ, then surely he can redeem all things through him too.
Of course Christ can pay the penalty for the sins of man.
Christ is greater than all humanity and sin, as the son of God.
Why do we have to conclude that only God himself could die. That assumption is not written anywhere and yet it is a popular teaching even though it is dodgy reasoning.
It is written that the head of man is Christ. Of course our head is greater than all of us. He is greater than all creation and creatures, for all came through him.
He is also the bridegroom. Surely the bridegroom is bigger than the bride? Therefore his blood can cleanses us all of sin and how much greater is the son of God to a lamb that was used to cover sins of God's people for a moment?
Saying that God had to die is another fable of man. Such a thought is not written.
Hi t8,
So you don't think the Son is part of creation? If He's not creation, and He's not God, then what do you say that He is?
Tim
Quote No man can ransom another. What is a ransom?
Isn't it the price paid that equals what is lost?
It was Adam (a perfect man) that sinned and lost us perfection. (Rom 5:12)
It would take a perfect man, Jesus who “became flesh” and was truly man, yet perfect, because of his special conception that would be needed to pay this ransom.
If God paid it, then that wouldn't make sense at all.
The other thing is, Jesus presented the price of this ransom to his Father in heaven. God didn't pay himself.
Quote No man can ransom another. Jesus was a perfect human.
He was born without any blemish of sin and he maintained that perfection throughout his life. “He committed no sin.” He was “undefiled, separated from the sinners.”—1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 7:26.Ps. 49:6-9: “Those who are trusting in their means of maintenance, and who keep boasting about the abundance of their riches, not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him; (and the redemption price of their soul is so precious that it has ceased to time indefinite) that he should still live forever and not see the pit.” (No imperfect human can provide the means to deliver someone else from sin and death. His money cannot buy eternal life, and his soul laid down in death, being the wages that are to come to him anyway because of sin, has no value toward delivering anyone.)
Why did God not simply decree that, although Adam and Eve must die for their rebellion, all of their offspring who would obey God could live forever?
Because Jehovah is “a lover of righteousness and justice.” (Ps. 33:5; Deut. 32:4; Jer. 9:24) So, the way he dealt with the situation upheld his righteousness, met the demands of absolute justice, and, at the same time, magnified his love and mercy. How is that so?(1) Adam and Eve had produced no children before they sinned, so none were born perfect. All of Adam’s offspring were brought forth in sin, and sin leads to death. If Jehovah had simply ignored this, that would have been a denial of his own righteous standards. God could not do that and so become a party to unrighteousness. He did not sidestep the requirements of absolute justice; so no intelligent creature could ever legitimately find fault in this respect.—Rom. 3:21-26.
(2) Without ignoring the requirements of justice, how could provision be made to deliver those of Adam’s offspring who would demonstrate loving obedience to Jehovah? If a perfect human was to die sacrificially, justice could allow for that perfect life to provide a covering for the sins of those who would in faith accept the provision. Since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (in effect, a second Adam), being of corresponding value, could balance the scales of justice. Because Adam was a willful sinner, he could not benefit; but because the penalty that all mankind was due to pay for sin would in this way be paid by someone else, Adam’s offspring could be delivered. But there was no such perfect human. Humankind could never meet those demands of absolute justice. So, as an expression of marvelous love and at great personal cost, Jehovah himself made the provision. (1 Cor. 15:45; 1 Tim. 2:5, 6; John 3:16; Rom. 5:8) God’s only-begotten Son was willing to do his part. Humbly leaving behind his heavenly glory and becoming a perfect human, Jesus died on behalf of mankind.—Phil. 2:7, 8.–Reasoning book, page 307
Hi Nick,
Nowhere. But it seems that you think Jesus has abdicated being God, since we know the Word was God and Thomas confessed Him as God after the resurrection.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
God does not change.
He cannot die.
If your god did then you do not yet know God.
James 1:17
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.Christ died but he was a man.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.Hi Nick,
The Word was God. So God was the Word.
The Word became flesh. Do you think the Word has ceased to be God?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
If the Word WAS God why is the Word no longer God?
What happened to God?
Ahh.. your god diedNick,
“Why is the Word no longer God?” Where does it say this.
Yes, my God, Jesus, died and rose again. He defeated sin and death.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
The Word WAS God.
God cannot die and even your staunchest supporters here cringe when you say He can and did.Hi Nick,
Yes, the thought of God dying should make all of us cringe. But it should also make us rejoice, for we know that no one took His life from Him, but He lay it down under His own authority, and took it up again.
I recommend this website: http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/crossf.html
Tim
Hi Tim2,
This is one of the most foolish derivations from the trinity folly and should cause you to realise that you have yet to worship the true God, the God of your God.
Ps 110
' 1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
Ps 45
” 6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
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