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Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,10:40) Quote Was the Apostle Paul the successor to the Apostle Peter? In which apostolic see? Peter was in Antioch and Rome. In Rome, his (Peter's) first successor was Linus.
CA:The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and so, if a Catholic pope is a successor as an Apostle it would have to be to the Apostle Paul and not to Peter. The Apostle Peter was the Apostle to the Nation of Israel after the Lord's ascension into heaven.
Quote Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the GentilesWas Linus an Apostle to the Nation of Israel?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 02 2009,10:59) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,10:40) Quote Was the Apostle Paul the successor to the Apostle Peter? In which apostolic see? Peter was in Antioch and Rome. In Rome, his (Peter's) first successor was Linus.
CA:The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and so, if a Catholic pope is a successor as an Apostle it would have to be to the Apostle Paul and not to Peter. The Apostle Peter was the Apostle to the Nation of Israel after the Lord's ascension into heaven.
Quote Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the GentilesWas Linus an Apostle to the Nation of Israel?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Come on, you surely aren't this ignorant of history. St. Paul was not the only apostle to the Gentiles. What of St. Thomas, who brought the gospel to India? Were they not Gentiles?What of St. Jude who brought the gospel to the Syrians? Were they not Gentiles?
What of St. Mark who brought the gospel to the Egyptians? Were they not Gentiles?
See, your whole theological system is based upon a false premise EASILY refuted.
Please…come back to the truth!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,11:34) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 02 2009,10:59) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,10:40) Quote Was the Apostle Paul the successor to the Apostle Peter? In which apostolic see? Peter was in Antioch and Rome. In Rome, his (Peter's) first successor was Linus.
CA:The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and so, if a Catholic pope is a successor as an Apostle it would have to be to the Apostle Paul and not to Peter. The Apostle Peter was the Apostle to the Nation of Israel after the Lord's ascension into heaven.
Quote Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the GentilesWas Linus an Apostle to the Nation of Israel?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Come on, you surely aren't this ignorant of history. St. Paul was not the only apostle to the Gentiles. What of St. Thomas, who brought the gospel to India? Were they not Gentiles?What of St. Jude who brought the gospel to the Syrians? Were they not Gentiles?
What of St. Mark who brought the gospel to the Egyptians? Were they not Gentiles?
See, your whole theological system is based upon a false premise EASILY refuted.
Please…come back to the truth!
Hi CA:Where in the scriptures do you find that the Apostle Peter was a Bishop of Rome. He was the Apostle to the Nation of Israel, and that is written in the scriptures.
And it is also written that when the gospel has been preached to the Nation of Israel those who rejected the gospel were cut off and that the Jesus himself apointed the Apostle Paul as the authority in the church.
And the commission of the whole church is to go into all of the world and preach the gospel to every creature, and so, yes, there were other Apostles who carried the gospel to other nations, but the nation of Israel ceased to exist as a nation after 70 AD, and so, why would there have been appointed someone to succeed him.
I believe that there is a scripture in which the Apostle Peter states that he is about to die as the Lord has shown him, but I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that he has appointed a successor.
At any rate, I want to arrive at the truth, and so, I will go back and study what you say is history.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Awesome. If you want to arrive at truth. If you want the winds and waves of every wind of doctrine to stop in your life as they did in mine. Please seriously engage me on the topic of Sola Scriptura.
You asked where it says such and such in Scripture. But if you really want to understand how I think and why, you have to engage me on the issues:
1. What is Scripture?
2. What books belong in the Scriptures and why? What authority do we depend upon for certainty regarding this?
3. Were the Scriptures intended to speak to everything in Christian life?
4. Can I really prove Sola Scriptura using the Scriptures themselves?If you can't engage me on these topics, we will always be struggling to understand one another.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 02 2009,10:59) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,10:40) Quote Was the Apostle Paul the successor to the Apostle Peter? In which apostolic see? Peter was in Antioch and Rome. In Rome, his (Peter's) first successor was Linus.
CA:The Apostle Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and so, if a Catholic pope is a successor as an Apostle it would have to be to the Apostle Paul and not to Peter. The Apostle Peter was the Apostle to the Nation of Israel after the Lord's ascension into heaven.
Quote Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the GentilesWas Linus an Apostle to the Nation of Israel?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! You know what, if you are getting into a conversation with a Catholic please don't believe everything the say. He will never belief you, we did not either then, when we belonged to the Church, we were born into it, and had no choice as children. We do now, however. The Catholic Church dd not even come on the scene until the third century. Until then the Christians were persecuted, by the Romans, and died by the Millions. That however did nit stop the persecution, cause the Catholic Church persecuted all those that read and had a Bible. Google that Church and you will be surprised. It was Constantine that issued an edit and made the Roman Universal Church the official Church of His Kingdom. That was in A.D. 324. He also ordered worship on Sundays and did away with all of God's Holy Days and made them Holidays, like Christmas and Easter etc. All of God's Holy Days are listed in Lev. 23. The first Christians went underground and kept those, as much as they could under the circumstances. We live in such sad times that most are under the trinity doctrine and Holidays instate of Holy Days. The whole world has been deceived. Jesus said only a few will find it. Find what? This and other idea's is why my Husband and I don't belong to any Church. Come out of Her my People. That we did, and I am forever thankful to God who has opened our minds to the truth. And it is not in the Catholic Church, that is for sure.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,13:08) Marty, Awesome. If you want to arrive at truth. If you want the winds and waves of every wind of doctrine to stop in your life as they did in mine. Please seriously engage me on the topic of Sola Scriptura.
You asked where it says such and such in Scripture. But if you really want to understand how I think and why, you have to engage me on the issues:
1. What is Scripture?
2. What books belong in the Scriptures and why? What authority do we depend upon for certainty regarding this?
3. Were the Scriptures intended to speak to everything in Christian life?
4. Can I really prove Sola Scriptura using the Scriptures themselves?If you can't engage me on these topics, we will always be struggling to understand one another.
Hi CA:My interest is in teaching the Word of God in truth, and so, every morning as part of my prayer routine I ask God to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will. And so, I am ready to be corrected if I am wrong. I do not want any one to teach any thing that is contrary to God's Word because the consequences are eternal.
I believe that the main thing is that I don't see God confirming what the Catholic church is teaching under the authority of the Pope.
I or you or the pope can say that we are teaching the truth, but if God confirms what we are teaching, it is Him that saying that what we are teaching is correct.
Are you interested in arriving at the truth or just in debating to see if you can prove yourself correct?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi CA:
The Word of God states:
Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
And so, however you define scripture, all scripture is given by the inspiration of God and it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness:
Do so do we agree with this?
Love in Christ,
MartyThis is a beautiful discussion we are beginning to have. I thank God exceedingly for it.
Yes, I have always been a truth seeker. I have been of the Sola Scriptura persuasion for most of my life. I was the founding pastor for two different congregations. I have been in Catholic countries trying to convert Catholics away from the church. But I believe that God showed me mercy because I did it in ignorance and in unbelief. I believe that He showed me mercy because I was asking, seeking, and knocking.
I came to one point in my pastorate where I decided that everything was free for the Lord to correct in me. I only kept one standard: the Bible. I started to re-examine church government, eschatology, marriage, the efficacy of baptism (I never felt honest reading Acts 2:38 and concluding that baptism was an outward sign of an inward work), etc.
O, the mountain tops I have been up and down. O, the waves of every wind of doctrine that have tossed me to and fro!
Please know that I am at peace. I am so wonderfully at peace. I know down in my knower that the Lord has led me to the truth by His wonderful saving grace! Hallelujah!
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 02 2009,15:37) Hi CA: The Word of God states:
Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
And so, however you define scripture, all scripture is given by the inspiration of God and it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness:
Do so do we agree with this?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Yes. I believe this verse with all of my heart. But please notice that it doesn't say that Scripture is the only rule for faith and practice. It does say that Scripture is “profitable”. It is beneficial for a great many things even beyond what is in the list here. But profitable does not mean “only”.You will find in Ephesians chapter 4 a list of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. These gifts are similarly profitable perfecting the people of God in faith. Notice that Scripture isn't mentioned in that passage. So if we applied the same hermeneutic to Eph. 4 as Sola Scriptura does to 2 Tim. 3:16, we would have “only men.”
What I'd like to do is ask you to please go to my thread on Sola Scriptura and read as much as you can of what I have posted.
Then let's continue our conversation there.
I'm really looking forward to it.
May the Lord bless you!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,08:11) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,07:34) I was Baptized:” In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We had several People getting Baptized at that time and after all were Baptized, the Minister laid Hands on each one of us, and we received the Holy Spirit. I know that it was so, because of what happened to me the next day. Every time I said a curse word, the Holy Spirit reminded me, Heh that is not right. And that happened more then one time that day. Every time I asked God please show me my faults and bingo He did. I have learned so much since then. That now is 24 years ago. What a great God we have. I want to add, that we were submerged all the way under, not like we were at the Catholic Church.
Peace and Love Irene
The mark was placed upon your soul at your Catholic baptism.Unfortunately someone must have failed to teach you the faith.
you are the one that are 100% wrong, I knew the Catholic Faith more then what you think. How could I have taught our 4 Children. The Priest of our Parish at that time would have corrected me, which He did not. You are still making the posts to me personal, which is wrong. We are here to debate Scripture and not people. No mark n my soul either. I was a Baby, who did not know what happened. All was wrong, and when I received the Holy Spirit of God I then became a Christian. And I know it, and that is more important then what you say.
IreneQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,17:08) This is a beautiful discussion we are beginning to have. I thank God exceedingly for it. Yes, I have always been a truth seeker. I have been of the Sola Scriptura persuasion for most of my life. I was the founding pastor for two different congregations. I have been in Catholic countries trying to convert Catholics away from the church. But I believe that God showed me mercy because I did it in ignorance and in unbelief. I believe that He showed me mercy because I was asking, seeking, and knocking.
I came to one point in my pastorate where I decided that everything was free for the Lord to correct in me. I only kept one standard: the Bible. I started to re-examine church government, eschatology, marriage, the efficacy of baptism (I never felt honest reading Acts 2:38 and concluding that baptism was an outward sign of an inward work), etc.
O, the mountain tops I have been up and down. O, the waves of every wind of doctrine that have tossed me to and fro!
Please know that I am at peace. I am so wonderfully at peace. I know down in my knower that the Lord has led me to the truth by His wonderful saving grace! Hallelujah!
I can't believe my eyes!!!You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you say your Faith is in the Catholic Church, and now you are saying that you are trying to get Catholics away from the Church. What is it? I would be happy if you left that Catholic Church. And if you did , you would owe everyone you debated persoal an apology.
IreneQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,17:08) This is a beautiful discussion we are beginning to have. I thank God exceedingly for it. Yes, I have always been a truth seeker. I have been of the Sola Scriptura persuasion for most of my life. I was the founding pastor for two different congregations. I have been in Catholic countries trying to convert Catholics away from the church. But I believe that God showed me mercy because I did it in ignorance and in unbelief. I believe that He showed me mercy because I was asking, seeking, and knocking.
I came to one point in my pastorate where I decided that everything was free for the Lord to correct in me. I only kept one standard: the Bible. I started to re-examine church government, eschatology, marriage, the efficacy of baptism (I never felt honest reading Acts 2:38 and concluding that baptism was an outward sign of an inward work), etc.
O, the mountain tops I have been up and down. O, the waves of every wind of doctrine that have tossed me to and fro!
Please know that I am at peace. I am so wonderfully at peace. I know down in my knower that the Lord has led me to the truth by His wonderful saving grace! Hallelujah!
So what happened to our friend the noncatholic or is it the Catholic, now he is to chicken to admit how wrong he was, is that what it is? Like I said before if you have the truth now it will set you free, but what does Scriptures say? First go to your Brothers and ask for forgiveness and then come and bring your offering to Christ, something on that line. So do others believe that is what he should be doing? I do. He said things to me, that were not true, and any time you do so, you owe that person an apology.
IreneQuote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,21:06) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,17:08) This is a beautiful discussion we are beginning to have. I thank God exceedingly for it. Yes, I have always been a truth seeker. I have been of the Sola Scriptura persuasion for most of my life. I was the founding pastor for two different congregations. I have been in Catholic countries trying to convert Catholics away from the church. But I believe that God showed me mercy because I did it in ignorance and in unbelief. I believe that He showed me mercy because I was asking, seeking, and knocking.
I came to one point in my pastorate where I decided that everything was free for the Lord to correct in me. I only kept one standard: the Bible. I started to re-examine church government, eschatology, marriage, the efficacy of baptism (I never felt honest reading Acts 2:38 and concluding that baptism was an outward sign of an inward work), etc.
O, the mountain tops I have been up and down. O, the waves of every wind of doctrine that have tossed me to and fro!
Please know that I am at peace. I am so wonderfully at peace. I know down in my knower that the Lord has led me to the truth by His wonderful saving grace! Hallelujah!
I can't believe my eyes!!!You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you say your Faith is in the Catholic Church, and now you are saying that you are trying to get Catholics away from the Church. What is it? I would be happy if you left that Catholic Church. And if you did , you would owe everyone you debated persoal an apology.
Irene
Irene,Go read this again. I was talking about my former life as a Protestant.
You NEED to calm down. I am not going to apologize for being concerned about your soul. It is too precious to God and to me.
Quote Hi CA,
In Christ there are no protestant or catholic denominations.
Christ is not divided.Here's the thing Nick. I agree the Christ is not divided. In other words, when each person decides to follow THEMSELVES and has THEIR own set of distinct beliefs, is this not “divided”?
No one here believes that “Catholics AND JW's AND Baptist's AND [whatever else]” all believe the truth. As you explain, the Christ is not divided.
But, God is organized. Nick, I've been on here long enough to know that you are the only one who follows your set of beliefs. Your children might also, but beyond that, it's just you.Quote I was the founding pastor for two different congregations. Finally. I knew it.
The average Catholic would have left after the first minute, after someone started using the Bible.:D
Seriously, you are nowhere near the average Catholic. The average Catholic, or the average person who claims to be Catholic does not really care too much about these things. They go to church, or maybe they only go on Christmas and Easter. But that's it.
Quote I have been in Catholic countries trying to convert Catholics away from the church. Was it frustrating when they kept saying that tradition was all that really mattered.
Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2009,15:32) Quote I was the founding pastor for two different congregations. Finally. I knew it.
The average Catholic would have left after the first minute, after someone started using the Bible.:D
Seriously, you are nowhere near the average Catholic. The average Catholic, or the average person who claims to be Catholic does not really care too much about these things. They go to church, or maybe they only go on Christmas and Easter. But that's it.
Hi DavidIf I am not mistaken the Catholics are not allowed to discuss scriptures for there is “no private interpretation” and only the “infallable Pope” or Priest can exegete scripture properly!
WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,09:49) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,08:29) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,08:11) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,07:34) I was Baptized:” In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We had several People getting Baptized at that time and after all were Baptized, the Minister laid Hands on each one of us, and we received the Holy Spirit. I know that it was so, because of what happened to me the next day. Every time I said a curse word, the Holy Spirit reminded me, Heh that is not right. And that happened more then one time that day. Every time I asked God please show me my faults and bingo He did. I have learned so much since then. That now is 24 years ago. What a great God we have. I want to add, that we were submerged all the way under, not like we were at the Catholic Church.
Peace and Love Irene
The mark was placed upon your soul at your Catholic baptism.Unfortunately someone must have failed to teach you the faith.
That too is ridiculous. No my friend you need to read the Bible in an open mind you might learn something. The Catholics do not Baptize according to Scripture.
Take that to the Bank.
Irene
You poor lady. Allow me to show you some Catholics who baptize by immersion and so silence your voice of ignorance:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktKmY_S2OPc
Also, here is an orthodox baptism by immersion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qYSCBR3Y-w
So please stop speaking about things you know very little of and start listening to the Church.
So our Catholic Church here in our town or I should say City is wrong? No my friend, they are Catholic through and through. I know I used to belong there. I sang a German Christmas Song there. Nice, really nice and an abomination to our God and Jesus Christ. Mary did not stay a Virgin and that song said so. MMMM
Sprinkling ore poor some water of an Infant is not Baptism according to Scripture. Jesus was Baptized in a River and John submerged Him all the way under the water. That is what submerging means. Maybe I have forgotten some of the Ritual we did in that Church, after all it is over 24 years ago and I am 71 now and of course we forget what we don't want to remember any way. I am not in anyway or form Catholic in my Soul. In fact I despise such practise. Call me ignorant that only shows me how ignorant you are.
Goodbye and good luck, I will not engage in any other way with you, I am not going to waste my precious energy on you, there is no sense in it.
Goodbye, Irene
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