The catholic church: answering common objections

Participant

Has ANYONE listened to all of at least ONE of these recordings?

If not, what are you doing even posting on this thread?

Please, listen!

August 25, 2009 at 7:25 pm#142277

Participant

Hi CA,
This is a biblical site but men offer their dogmas.

August 26, 2009 at 1:26 am#142385

http://ewtn.edgeboss.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/iq_1047.mp3

Participant

http://ewtn.edgeboss.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/iq_1048.mp3

http://ewtn.edgeboss.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/iq_1049.mp3

August 26, 2009 at 1:39 am#142391

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:21)

Has ANYONE listened to all of at least ONE of these recordings?

If not, what are you doing even posting on this thread?

Please, listen!

have you given us any desire at all to listen to twenty minutes of something that you cannot spend a few posts putiing your own heart and soul into. I don't feel The Holy Spirit working through you at all and I am not saying that because I disagree with your theology because there are many people here that I disagree with but I do feel The Holy Spirit present within them.

Stop cutting and pasting, Tell us what “you” believe and think you are not a robot.

August 26, 2009 at 3:54 am#142421

david

Participant

Quote

I'll post something in the violence thread for you.

–CA

Your link doesn't seem to work. And even if it did, I don't know that it would answer my questions. Why can you not just answer my questions?

david

August 27, 2009 at 6:13 pm#142628

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

Participant

Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2009,15:54)

Quote

I'll post something in the violence thread for you.

–CA

Your link doesn't seem to work. And even if it did, I don't know that it would answer my questions. Why can you not just answer my questions?

david

David,

I just tried. The link works great for me. Try downloading QuickTime. It's free:

Are you sure you just not “allowed” to listen to this?

August 27, 2009 at 6:46 pm#142637

Participant

Hi CA,
I have no personal objection to catholicism as it is a very popular philosophical amusement for the lost.
But God objects to it and that is why you need to come out of her.

August 27, 2009 at 7:27 pm#142666

Participant

Hi CA,
When Jesus comes back will he be happy with the pontiff and his glorious kingship in the roman palaces?
Is it of faith?

August 27, 2009 at 7:32 pm#142669

Participant

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,05:39)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 25 2009,20:19)

Catholic Apologist My Husband and I are from Germany and were all our lives in the Catholic Church til my Husband were 47 and I was 46. I don't know how old you are and if you remember that at that time all was written in Latin. We never read the Bible. Until God called us out that Church. I found it rather ironic when we called our Parish Priest and asked him question. He told my Husband God is calling you. He knew something.

First it was the Roman Catholic Church that after almost three Century of brutal persecution, that if you owned a Bible you were tortured and killed. Millions lost their lives.

Praying to the Virgin Mary is Idolatry. She never stayed a Virgin either and had other Children.
You worship the Pope more then our Heavenly Father. Their is only one Holy Father and that is Jehovah God. And then the trinity Doctrine is a man made doctrine and the first Christians never taught it.

Also Jesus is the perfect Sacrifice, we do not have to bring that up in the Mass no more. It too is a Abomination to God.

Do I have prove that their is no trinity? Yes.
It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who first instituted that doctrine. It is a man made doctrine, not of God.
God is not 3in1. All are not equal either, The Holy Spirit is the Father Spirit.

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through us all, and in us all.

By Jesus own words in
John 14:28 …..for my Father is greater then I.

The one mostly which I find so wrong is that you go to the Priest and ask for the forgiveness of your sins. Nobody other then our Heavenly Father can forgive your sins.
Jess Christ died for us so that we have a perfect Sacrifice and He is our Mediator to go to the Father and ask for forgiveness of our sins. No other Sacrifice is needed. No penalty. No rosary. No 20 Our Fathers. O how I remember. I am forever thankful to God that He called us out of that Church. And I do not listen to nonsense.
Irene

Quote

He told my Husband God is calling you.

Why would you take any stock in what a priest told you since you think they are lying, deceiving tools of the devil?

Quote

if you owned a Bible you were tortured and killed. Millions lost their lives.

Come on, you know this is patently false. The Church only destroyed corrupted TRANSLATIONS. The Church was the first to translate the Scriptures into German, English, you name it! That is irrefutable fact.

I don't know who's lies you've been hearing from the pulpit. But you need to do some thinking for yourself.

Research. Study for yourself. History backs us up.

You have to read some disgruntled nut to come up with the crazy version of history that never happened. Anyone could disingenuously string together a clipping from over here and a sentence from over there to construe any history they pleased.

They do this much in the same way that some US professors try to teach their pupils that America was founded by Agnostics and Atheists.

As to your Tertullian claim, let me ask you this: Have you EVER read the ante-Nicene fathers for yourself? Or are you going on hear-say?

It has been so long since I had to probe to about Tertullian and I will have to surge where I have the prove. It will take me some time, but I will get back to you with that. We don't ever believe in any body unless we can prove it in the Word of God or History. But that is not even the worst that you are doing in that Church. Praying to Mary is much worse then the trinity doctrine. And you say nothing about proving that doctrine. PROVE IT, PROVE IT. And even the trinity you cannot prove. Not to speak of the Pope, how those that go to Rome and see the Pope how the kiss his hand etc, No my friend you do not have a leg to stand on. I told you to prove it, and all you do only come up with what you said. Think again. You still say the rosary don;t you? I am sitting here and shaking my head, to be so indoctrinated. And we do not belong to any Church. There is no Church on this earth that only teaches the truth. Jesus Christ will have to come first to straighten all out. And to that day I am forever looking forward to. And what you said about a clipping from over here and there, I have to laugh, cause the Bible tells you to take line upon line here a little and there a little. As far as the Priests that I came in contact with, were honest Priest, and just as deceived as you are. Wake up.
Irene

August 27, 2009 at 7:49 pm#142677

Participant

Catholic Apologist! I just talked to my Husband and He told me to go to the Internet and google Tetrtullin. His whole name is Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. I don't have to prove it to myself you do!
Irene

August 28, 2009 at 2:05 am#142750

942767

Participant

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:21)

Has ANYONE listened to all of at least ONE of these recordings?

If not, what are you doing even posting on this thread?

Please, listen!

Hi CA:

First, let me thank you for posting this information because it will help me understand so that we can discuss our differences and perhaps come into unity so that we can teach the Word of God in truth.

I have listened to the series on “Mary”.

First of all, Mary said that all generations from the time of her being chosen to be the mother of our Lord would call her blessed. And she is because any woman would have liked to have had this honor.

But she is not the Ark of the Covenant. The body of Christ is the Ark of the covenant. And neither is she every Christian's mother, we as born again Christians from the gentile nations were adopted into the body of Christ. Although Jesus does tell John to take care of his mother, he also states when some tells him that his mother and brethren are waiting outside for him, that those who do the will of God are his mother, and brother, etc. Elder women in the body of Christ, are also called mothers in the church.

And the vision in heaven of the woman clothed in the sun, is not Mary but the nation of Israel.

And if Mary is sinless, it is because her sins have been forgiven and washed away by the blood that was shed for all of humanity. The scripture states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that includes Mary. She is not in heaven, but has died in that all of humanity have a mortal body. Her soul is asleep awaiting the resurrection.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 28, 2009 at 2:09 am#142754

942767

Participant

Hi CA:

And one more comment regarding Mary, and that is that Our Lord when asked by the disciples to teach them to pray said that we should pray “Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name…, he did not say that we should pray to Mary to make intercession for us, and as I have stated she is asleep, and so she cannot make intercession for anyone.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 28, 2009 at 3:06 am#142762

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 28 2009,14:05)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:21)

Has ANYONE listened to all of at least ONE of these recordings?

If not, what are you doing even posting on this thread?

Please, listen!

Hi CA:

I have listened to the series on “Mary”.

And the vision in heaven of the woman clothed in the sun, is not Mary but the nation of Israel.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Do you really believe that a Catholic will compromise? I do not think so. Since I know how they feel about their Church no way. The way they worship and call Her Holy Mary Mother of God blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Every Our Father they add the Holy Mary prayer.
I used to do so too. Also they believe that She stayed a Virgin. Thanks to our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, He has called us out of that Church. I am forever thankful for that.
Peace and Love Irene

August 28, 2009 at 3:59 am#142768

942767

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 28 2009,15:06)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 28 2009,14:05)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:21)

Has ANYONE listened to all of at least ONE of these recordings?

If not, what are you doing even posting on this thread?

Please, listen!

Hi CA:

I have listened to the series on “Mary”.

And the vision in heaven of the woman clothed in the sun, is not Mary but the nation of Israel.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Cindy:

Both you and I know that what they are doing is not correct, and so, I am going to pray that God will show them the truth so that they might be blessed. Do you want to joing me in this prayer?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 28, 2009 at 5:18 am#142776

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 28 2009,07:49)

Irene,

Our disagreement is not about Tertullian's name. I'm not arguing about his full name. But I'm glad you know it too.

What I took odds with is your claim that Tertullian “invented” the doctrine of the Trinity. As I will show AGAIN here, this is patently false:

The Letter of Barnabas

“And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men” (Letter of Barnabas 5 [A.D. 74] emphasis added).

Hermas

“The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father’s adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient” (The Shepherd 12 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him” (Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 [A.D. 110] emphasis added).

Justin Martyr

“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62 [A.D. 155]).

Polycarp of Smyrna

“I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 [A.D. 155] emphasis added).

Mathetes

“[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world. . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old. . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son” (Letter to Diognetus 11 [A.D. 160] emphasis added).

Irenaeus

“It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else. . . . For God did not stand in need of these in order to accomplish what he had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if he did not possess his own hands. For with him [the Father] were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, ‘Let us make man in our image and likeness’ [Gen. 1:26]” (Against Heresies 4:20:1 [A.D. 189] emphasis added).

Tertullian

“While keeping to this demurrer always, there must, nevertheless, be place for reviewing for the sake of the instruction and protection of various persons. Otherwise it might seem that each perverse opinion is not examined but simply prejudged and condemned. This is especially so in the case of the present heresy [Sabellianism], which considers itself to have the pure truth when it supposes that one cannot believe in the one only God in any way other than by saying that Father, Son, and Spirit are the selfsame person. As if one were not all . . . through the unity of substance” (Against Praxeas 2:3–4 [A.D. 216]).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe, now, that I say the Father is other [distinct], and the Son is other, and the Spirit is other.
. . . I say this, however, out of necessity, since they contend that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are the selfsame person” (ibid. 9:1).

Hippolytus

“Thus, after the death of Zephyrinus, supposing that he had obtained [the position] after which he so eagerly pursued, he [Pope Callistus] excommunicated Sabellius, as not entertaining orthodox opinions” (Refutation of All Heresies 9:7 [A.D. 228]).

Novatian

“[W]ho does not acknowledge that the person of the Son is second after the Father, when he reads that it was said by the Father, consequently to the Son, ‘Let us make man in our image and our likeness’ [Gen. 1:26]? Or when he reads [as having been said] to Christ: ‘Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten you. Ask of me, and I will give you the heathens for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession’ [Ps. 2:7–8]? Or when also that beloved writer says: ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I shall make your enemies the stool of your feet’ [Ps. 110:1]? Or when, unfolding the prophecies of Isaiah, he finds it written thus: ‘Thus says the Lord to Christ my Lord’? Or when he reads: ‘I came not down from heaven to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me’ [John 6:38]? Or when he finds it written: ‘Because he who sent me is greater than I’ [cf. John 14:24, 28]? Or when he finds it placed side by side with others: ‘Moreover, in your law it is written that the witness of two is true. I bear witness of myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness of me’ [cf. John 8:17–18]?” (Treatise on the Trinity 26 [A.D. 235]).

“And I should have enough to do were I to endeavor to gather together all the passages [of the kind in the previous quotation] . . . since the divine Scripture, not so much of the Old as also of the New Testament, everywhere shows him to be born of the Father, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made, who always has obeyed and obeys the Father; that he always has power over all things, but as delivered, as granted, as by the Father himself permitted to him. And what can be so evident proof that this is not the Father, but the Son; as that he is set forth as being obedient to God the Father, unless, if he be believed to be the Father, Christ may be said to be subjected to another God the Father?” (ibid.)

Pope Dionysius

“Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the monarchy, the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it, as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. I have heard that some of your catechists and teachers of the divine Word take the lead in this tenet. They are, so to speak, diametrically opposed to the opinion of Sabellius. He, in his b.asphemy, says that the Son is the Father and vice versa” (Letters of Pope Dionysius to Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria 1:1 [A.D. 262]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

“But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [person]. . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three pers
ons—namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature” (A Sectional Confession of Faith 8 [A.D. 262]).

“But if they say, ‘How can there be three persons, and how but one divinity?’ we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as . . . there is one substance in the Trinity” (ibid., 14).

Methodius

“For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one deity in three persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor. For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Ghost to be what in substance and personality he is. For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty” (Oration on the Psalms 5 [A.D. 305]).

Athanasius

“[The Trinity] is a Trinity not merely in name or in a figurative manner of speaking; rather, it is a Trinity in truth and in actual existence. Just as the Father is he that is, so also his Word is one that is and is God over all. And neither is the Holy Spirit nonexistent but actually exists and has true being. Less than these the Catholic Church does not hold, lest she sink to the level of the Jews of the present time, imitators of Caiaphas, or to the level of Sabellius” (Letters to Serapion 1:28 [A.D. 359]).

“They [the Father and the Son] are one, not as one thing now divided into two, but really constituting only one, nor as one thing twice named, so that the same becomes at one time the Father and at another his own Son. This latter is what Sabellius held, and he was judged a heretic. On the contrary, they are two, because the Father is Father and is not his own Son, and the Son is Son and not his own Father” (Discourses Against the Arians 3:4 [A.D. 360]).

Fulgentius of Ruspe

“See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he [Christ] says, ‘The Father and I, we are one’ [John 10:30]. He teaches us that ‘one’ refers to their nature and ‘we are’ to their persons. In like manner it is said, ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one’ [cf. 1 John 5:7]. Let Sabellius hear ‘we are,’ let him hear ‘three,’ and let him believe that there are three persons” (The Trinity 4:1 [A.D. 513]).

August 28, 2009 at 5:26 am#142777

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 28 2009,14:05)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:21)

Has ANYONE listened to all of at least ONE of these recordings?

If not, what are you doing even posting on this thread?

Please, listen!

Hi CA:

I have listened to the series on “Mary”.

And the vision in heaven of the woman clothed in the sun, is not Mary but the nation of Israel.

Love in Christ,
Marty

90210 (I know those aren't the right numbers, but I'm in a jovial mood):

Here's where I can say, “But I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture”. You can say, “Well, I disagree with YOUR interpretation of Scripture.” I already know how this is going to play out.

Let me say two things:

1. I'm so glad you took the time to listen. Thank you from my heart.

2. You really should have started with the Pope recording, but whatever. I just think authority is the issue between us and this would have addressed it. But again, I'm really glad you took your valuable time and listened.

3. Mary, the second Eve, having crushed the head of the serpent together with her divine Son is the terror of devils. No wonder Satan worked so hard on you to get you to forsake her. You can't have Jesus without Mary. If Jesus is your Elder Brother, then Mary is your mother.

But I'm not in an argumentative mood. I just really hope we can find a connecting point in the future. Your soul is valuable to me and to God.

(I don't believe in this crazy annihilation theory of the JW's – I'm assuming you are one of them)

August 28, 2009 at 5:32 am#142778

Participant

Hi CA,
Is this the Mary who was taken alive into heaven and terrorises devils.
It is amazing what men will think up when freed from the limits of sacred scripture.

August 28, 2009 at 8:21 am#142797