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Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,10:50) Quote You use the word “Succession”, well I do not see that principle in the scriptures. If what you are saying is true, that Peter was the first “Pope” and then right down to the current day, we have his successors in the RCC, then where does the Apostle Paul fit?
He is 2/3 of your NT Bible is he not? He says he comes behind no Apostle, did he not?
Why havn't you answered these things? Are you here just to promote the “Catholic religion”?
WJ
First of all, Sola Scriptura is a self refuting proposition. But we do concede that all doctrines can at the very least be deduced by Scripture.
The one you are referring to (apostolic succession) can clearly be seen in the first chapter of Acts when Peter, as chief apostle, oversaw the choosing and ordination of the first successor to the apostles.
We can also see in Sacred Scripture where St. Paul layed his hands on Timothy and conferred the holy orders of apostolic succession.
In 2 Timothy 1:6 Paul states, “Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.” Timothy's ordination was received through the laying on of Paul's hands, and Paul had the powers of a bishop as part of his powers as an apostle. Thus someone of episcopal rank ordained Timothy. We see this earlier in 1 Timothy 4:14 This means that presbyters (priests) laid their hands on Timothy, it was the same situation as modern priests laying their hands on a candidate after the bishop actually confers the sacrament.
Hi CA:Was Timothy and Apostle?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,10:50) Christ conferred upon his apostles the original task of shepherding the earthly Church in his absence. As the Church grew, the apostles themselves appointed different kinds of ministers to assist them. Among the apostles there were two groups. The first consisted of the Twelve, who witnessed the whole of Christ's earthly ministry from his baptism to his Ascension (Acts 1:21-26). The second group of apostles, including Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:14), was not bound by this condition. Thus Paul had seen and been commissioned as an apostle by the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1, Gal. 1:1), though he had not been a disciple of Jesus during his earthly ministry (Acts 9, 1 Cor. 15:8).
Christ could have continued to appear to individuals and appoint them as apostles throughout the Church age. However, he chose not to do so, and so the apostles passed from the scene.
The fact that this group has not continued is a Christian teaching, though not found in the New Testament, that is universally honored among Christians, including Protestants (except for certain radical Pentecostals). Thus it can be used as a counterexample with those advocating sola scriptura.
As the apostles died, the task of shepherding the Church fell by default upon the highest-ranking ministers appointed by them. This group is known today as the bishops, who are the successors of the apostles as the highest shepherds of the earthly Church.
Due to bishops' role as the successors of the apostles, possession of a valid episcopacy is necessary for a church to claim apostolic succession. Apostolic succession thus involves in the bishops serving as successors to the apostles, not serving as apostles. The bishops are not simply a continuation of the office of apostle; they received the governance of the Church when that office ceased.
Hi CA:And so, the office of Apostle ceased with what Apostle?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 04 2009,12:50) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,10:50) Christ conferred upon his apostles the original task of shepherding the earthly Church in his absence. As the Church grew, the apostles themselves appointed different kinds of ministers to assist them. Among the apostles there were two groups. The first consisted of the Twelve, who witnessed the whole of Christ's earthly ministry from his baptism to his Ascension (Acts 1:21-26). The second group of apostles, including Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:14), was not bound by this condition. Thus Paul had seen and been commissioned as an apostle by the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1, Gal. 1:1), though he had not been a disciple of Jesus during his earthly ministry (Acts 9, 1 Cor. 15:8).
Christ could have continued to appear to individuals and appoint them as apostles throughout the Church age. However, he chose not to do so, and so the apostles passed from the scene.
The fact that this group has not continued is a Christian teaching, though not found in the New Testament, that is universally honored among Christians, including Protestants (except for certain radical Pentecostals). Thus it can be used as a counterexample with those advocating sola scriptura.
As the apostles died, the task of shepherding the Church fell by default upon the highest-ranking ministers appointed by them. This group is known today as the bishops, who are the successors of the apostles as the highest shepherds of the earthly Church.
Due to bishops' role as the successors of the apostles, possession of a valid episcopacy is necessary for a church to claim apostolic succession. Apostolic succession thus involves in the bishops serving as successors to the apostles, not serving as apostles. The bishops are not simply a continuation of the office of apostle; they received the governance of the Church when that office ceased.
Hi CA:And so, the office of Apostle ceased with what Apostle?
Love in Christ,
Marty
JohnThe deposit of faith is considered “Public Revelation.”
Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4), but private revelation has continued.
“Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium [collective sense of the faithful] knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept ‘revelations’ that claim to surpass or correct the revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such ‘revelations’” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 67).
Some people tend to go to one extreme or the other on private revelation; they either completely reject the concept or they consider private revelation their chief rule of faith. The original sixteenth century Protestant Reformers denied all private revelation—they had to, for all the miracles that had occurred and all the private revelations that had been received over the previous fifteen hundred years had confirmed rather than attacked the Catholic faith. The original Reformers’ actions were in direct disobedience to the binding command of the New Testament: “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good” (1 Thess. 5:19–21).
The Reformers’ eradication of all new revelation led people to forget the distinction between public and private revelation. Thus when people appeared claiming to have new revleation, Protestants were left vulnerable to thinking any new revelations would be binding on all Christians. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, religious organizations which claim such new revelations have evolved in Protestant circles; for example, the Irvingites, the Mormons, the Seventh-Day Adventists, and the current “Word Faith” or “Prosperity Gospel” movement.
When the Pentecostal movement started in 1900, it faced the problem of explaining why private revelations had ceased for so many centuries, as the original Protestant Reformers claimed, only to begin again during this century. The correct answer, as the following passages from the early Church Fathers show, is that private revelation never did stop.
Hermas
“The vision which I saw, my brethren, was of the following nature . . . [An] old woman approached, accompanied by six young men . . . [And] she said to me . . . ‘Lo! do you not see opposite to you a great tower, built upon the waters, of splendid square stones?’ For the tower was built square by the six young men who had come with her. But myriads of men were carrying stones to it, some dragging them from the depths, others removing them from the land, and they handed them to these six young men. . . . [And the woman said:] ‘The tower which you see building is myself, the Church . . . the tower is built upon the waters . . . because your life has been and will be “saved through water” [1 Pet. 3:20–21] . . . the six young men . . . are the holy angels of God . . . the other persons who are engaged in carrying the stones . . . also are holy angels of the Lord . . . [And] when the tower is finished and built, then comes the end’” (The Shepherd 1:3:1–8 [A.D. 80]).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“While he [Polycarp] was thus at his prayers, three days before his arrest, he had a vision in which he saw flames reducing his pillow to ashes; whereupon he turned to his companions and said, ‘I must be going to be burnt alive.’ . . . [After his arrest, the crowd called] loud demands for the Asiarch Philip to let loose a lion at Polycarp. However, he told them that the rules would not allow him to do so, since he had already declared the beast-fighting closed; whereupon they decided to set up a unanimous outcry that he should have Polycarp burnt alive” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 5, 12 [A.D. 155]).
“Polycarp was . . . bishop of the Catholic Church at Smyrna, and a teacher in our own day who combined both apostle and prophet in his own person. For indeed, every word that ever fell from his lips either has had or will have its fulfillment” (ibid., 16).
Justin Martyr
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages and who bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God” (Against Heresies 5:6:1 [A.D. 189]).
Pionius
“I, Pionius, have made a fresh transcript of [The Martyrdom of Polycarp]. I found them after Polycarp the Blessed had revealed their whereabouts in a vision, as I will explain hereafter. Time had reduced them almost to tatters, but I gathered them carefully together in the hope that the Lord Jesus may likewise gather myself amongst his elect into his heavenly kingdom. To him, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory forever and ever. Amen” (Martyrdom of Polycarp, copyist note 2 [A.D. 250]).
Constantine the Great
“And while he [the Emperor Constantine] was praying with fervent entreaty, a most marvelous sign appeared to him from heaven, the account of which it might have been hard to believe had it been related by any other person. But since the victorious emperor himself long afterwards declared it to the writer of this history [Eusebius], when he was honored with his acquaintance and society, and confirmed his statement by an oath, who could hesitate to accredit the relation, especially since the testimony of after-time has established its truth? He said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes a trophy of a cross of light in the heavens, above the sun, and bearing the inscription, ‘Conquer By This.’ At this sight he was struck with amazement, and his whole army also, which followed him on this expedition, and witnessed the miracle. He said [to me], moreover, that he doubted within himself what the import of this apparition could be. And while he continued to ponder and reason on its meaning, night suddenly came on; then in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens, and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens, and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies. . . . eing struck with amazement at the extraordinary vision, and resolving to worship no other God save him who had appeared to him, he sent for those who were acquainted with the mysteries of [God’s] doctrines and inquired who that God was and what was intended by the sign of the vision he had seen” (Eusebius, Life of Constantine 1:28–32 [A.D. 337]).
Anthony of Egypt
“[Anthony told his monks:] When, therefore, they [demons] come by night to you and wish to tell the future, or say ‘We are the angels,’ give no heed, for they lie. . . . But if they shamelessly stand their ground, capering, and change their forms of appearance, fear them not, nor shrink, nor heed them as though they were good spirits. For the presence either of the good or evil by t
he help of God can easily be distinguished. The vision of the holy ones is not fraught with distraction: ‘For they will not strive, nor cry, nor shall anyone hear their voice’ [Matt 12:19; cf. Is. 42:2]. But it comes quietly and gently that an immediate joy, gladness, and courage arise in the soul. For the Lord who is our joy is with them, and the power of God the Father” (Ambrose, Life of St. Anthony 35 [A.D. 359]).Augustine
“For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by his sacraments or by the prayers or relics of his saints . . . The miracle which was wrought at Milan when I was there . . . [and when people] had gathered to the bodies of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius, which had long lain concealed and unknown but were now made known to the bishop Ambrose in a dream and discovered by him” (City of God 22:8 [A.D. 419]).
“[T]he martyrs, by the very benefits which are given to them that pray, indicate that they take an interest in the affairs of men . . . For not only by effects of benefits, but in the very beholding of men, it is certain that the confessor Felix . . . appeared when the barbarians were attacking Nola, as we have heard not by uncertain rumors but by sure witness” (ibid., 19).
“A certain man by [the] name Curma [was in a coma] . . . Yet he was seeing many things as in a dream; when at last after a great many days he woke up, he told that he had seen. . . . [He also saw] Hippo, where he was seemingly baptized by me . . . After much that he saw, he narrated how he had, moreover, been led into paradise and how it was there said to him, when he was dismissed to return to his own family, ‘Go, be baptized if you want to be in this place of the blessed.’ Thereupon being admonished to be baptized by me, he said it was done already. He who was talking with him replied, ‘Go, be truly baptized, for you only saw that in a vision.’ After this he recovered, went his way to Hippo. . . . He was baptized [and] at the close of the holy days [of Easter] returned to his own place . . . Why should we not believe these to be angelic operations through the dispensation of the providence of God?” (The Care to be Had for the Dead 15 [A.D. 421]).
Sozomen
“Gregory of Nazianz presided over those who maintain the consubstantiality of the Holy Trinity, and assembled them together in a little dwelling, which had been altered into the form of a house of prayer, by those who held the same opinions and had a like form of worship. It subsequently became one of the most conspicuous in the city, and is so now, not only for the beauty and number of its structures, but also for the advantages accruing to it from the visible manifestations of God. For the power of God was there manifested, and was helpful both in waking visions and in dreams, often for the relief of many diseases and for those afflicted by some sudden transmutation in their affairs. The power was accredited to Mary, the Mother of God, the holy Virgin, for she does manifest herself in this way” (Church History 7:5 [A.D. 444]).
Patrick of Ireland
“And there truly [in Ireland] one night I heard in my sleep a voice saying to me, ‘You fast well; soon you will go to your fatherland.’ And again, after I very short time, I heard the heavenly voice saying to me, ‘Lo, your ship is ready.’ And it was not near at hand, but was distant, perhaps two hundred miles. And I had never been there, nor did I know any person living there. And thereupon I shortly took flight and left the man with whom I had been for six years. And I came in the strength of God, who prospered my way for good; and I met with nothing to alarm me until I reached that ship” (Confession of St. Patrick 17 [A.D. 452]).
“And once more, after a few years, I was in Britain with my family. . . . And there indeed I saw in a vision of the night a man whose name was Victoricus coming as it were from Ireland with countless letters. He gave me one of them, and I read the beginning of the letter, which was entitled ‘The Voice of the Irish.’ And while I was reading aloud the beginning of the letter, I thought that at that very moment I heard the voices of those who dwelt beside the Wood of Foclut [in Ireland], which is nigh unto the Western Sea. And thus they cried, as with one mouth, ‘We beseech you, holy youth, to come and walk once more among us!’” (ibid., 23).
“Let those who will, laugh and mock. I shall not be silent nor conceal the signs and wonders which were shown to me by the Lord many years before they came to pass, since he knows all things even before the world’s beginnings” (ibid., 45).
Hi CA,
Why do you offer us these carnal men when Jesus still calls men to be joined to him and avoid the wrath of God?Hi,
The catholic church wields an enormous amount of power.
It is not derived from any divine anointing but the abandoning of personal responsibility of the fearful who give their fate to her.Hi,
So this worldwide political and individual domination has no root in God and that is why we are told to come out of her. Shake off the shackles that use guilt and fear to control and walk free into the light.Quote (942767 @ Sep. 04 2009,12:44) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,10:50) Quote You use the word “Succession”, well I do not see that principle in the scriptures. If what you are saying is true, that Peter was the first “Pope” and then right down to the current day, we have his successors in the RCC, then where does the Apostle Paul fit?
He is 2/3 of your NT Bible is he not? He says he comes behind no Apostle, did he not?
Why havn't you answered these things? Are you here just to promote the “Catholic religion”?
WJ
First of all, Sola Scriptura is a self refuting proposition. But we do concede that all doctrines can at the very least be deduced by Scripture.
The one you are referring to (apostolic succession) can clearly be seen in the first chapter of Acts when Peter, as chief apostle, oversaw the choosing and ordination of the first successor to the apostles.
We can also see in Sacred Scripture where St. Paul layed his hands on Timothy and conferred the holy orders of apostolic succession.
In 2 Timothy 1:6 Paul states, “Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.” Timothy's ordination was received through the laying on of Paul's hands, and Paul had the powers of a bishop as part of his powers as an apostle. Thus someone of episcopal rank ordained Timothy. We see this earlier in 1 Timothy 4:14 This means that presbyters (priests) laid their hands on Timothy, it was the same situation as modern priests laying their hands on a candidate after the bishop actually confers the sacrament.
Hi CA:Was Timothy and Apostle?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Timothy was a bishop who received apostolic succession. He was one of the first successors to the apostles and is an example of the pattern of bishop and deacon they were inspired to leave as successors. The apostolic mandate and authority was entrusted to an office: bishop.Hi CA,
The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.
Timothy bears no relationship to the manmade political organisation that is catholicism.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 05 2009,12:57) The deposit of faith is considered “Public Revelation.” Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4), but private revelation has continued.
“Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium [collective sense of the faithful] knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept ‘revelations’ that claim to surpass or correct the revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such ‘revelations’” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 67).
Some people tend to go to one extreme or the other on private revelation; they either completely reject the concept or they consider private revelation their chief rule of faith. The original sixteenth century Protestant Reformers denied all private revelation—they had to, for all the miracles that had occurred and all the private revelations that had been received over the previous fifteen hundred years had confirmed rather than attacked the Catholic faith. The original Reformers’ actions were in direct disobedience to the binding command of the New Testament: “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good” (1 Thess. 5:19–21).
The Reformers’ eradication of all new revelation led people to forget the distinction between public and private revelation. Thus when people appeared claiming to have new revleation, Protestants were left vulnerable to thinking any new revelations would be binding on all Christians. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, religious organizations which claim such new revelations have evolved in Protestant circles; for example, the Irvingites, the Mormons, the Seventh-Day Adventists, and the current “Word Faith” or “Prosperity Gospel” movement.
When the Pentecostal movement started in 1900, it faced the problem of explaining why private revelations had ceased for so many centuries, as the original Protestant Reformers claimed, only to begin again during this century. The correct answer, as the following passages from the early Church Fathers show, is that private revelation never did stop.
Hermas
“The vision which I saw, my brethren, was of the following nature . . . [An] old woman approached, accompanied by six young men . . . [And] she said to me . . . ‘Lo! do you not see opposite to you a great tower, built upon the waters, of splendid square stones?’ For the tower was built square by the six young men who had come with her. But myriads of men were carrying stones to it, some dragging them from the depths, others removing them from the land, and they handed them to these six young men. . . . [And the woman said:] ‘The tower which you see building is myself, the Church . . . the tower is built upon the waters . . . because your life has been and will be “saved through water” [1 Pet. 3:20–21] . . . the six young men . . . are the holy angels of God . . . the other persons who are engaged in carrying the stones . . . also are holy angels of the Lord . . . [And] when the tower is finished and built, then comes the end’” (The Shepherd 1:3:1–8 [A.D. 80]).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“While he [Polycarp] was thus at his prayers, three days before his arrest, he had a vision in which he saw flames reducing his pillow to ashes; whereupon he turned to his companions and said, ‘I must be going to be burnt alive.’ . . . [After his arrest, the crowd called] loud demands for the Asiarch Philip to let loose a lion at Polycarp. However, he told them that the rules would not allow him to do so, since he had already declared the beast-fighting closed; whereupon they decided to set up a unanimous outcry that he should have Polycarp burnt alive” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 5, 12 [A.D. 155]).
“Polycarp was . . . bishop of the Catholic Church at Smyrna, and a teacher in our own day who combined both apostle and prophet in his own person. For indeed, every word that ever fell from his lips either has had or will have its fulfillment” (ibid., 16).
Justin Martyr
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages and who bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God” (Against Heresies 5:6:1 [A.D. 189]).
Pionius
“I, Pionius, have made a fresh transcript of [The Martyrdom of Polycarp]. I found them after Polycarp the Blessed had revealed their whereabouts in a vision, as I will explain hereafter. Time had reduced them almost to tatters, but I gathered them carefully together in the hope that the Lord Jesus may likewise gather myself amongst his elect into his heavenly kingdom. To him, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory forever and ever. Amen” (Martyrdom of Polycarp, copyist note 2 [A.D. 250]).
Constantine the Great
“And while he [the Emperor Constantine] was praying with fervent entreaty, a most marvelous sign appeared to him from heaven, the account of which it might have been hard to believe had it been related by any other person. But since the victorious emperor himself long afterwards declared it to the writer of this history [Eusebius], when he was honored with his acquaintance and society, and confirmed his statement by an oath, who could hesitate to accredit the relation, especially since the testimony of after-time has established its truth? He said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes a trophy of a cross of light in the heavens, above the sun, and bearing the inscription, ‘Conquer By This.’ At this sight he was struck with amazement, and his whole army also, which followed him on this expedition, and witnessed the miracle. He said [to me], moreover, that he doubted within himself what the import of this apparition could be. And while he continued to ponder and reason on its meaning, night suddenly came on; then in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens, and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens, and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies. . . . eing struck with amazement at the extraordinary vision, and resolving to worship no other God save him who had appeared to him, he sent for those who were acquainted with the mysteries of [God’s] doctrines and inquired who that God was and what was intended by the sign of the vision he had seen” (Eusebius, Life of Constantine 1:28–32 [A.D. 337]).
Anthony of Egypt
“[Anthony told his monks:] When, therefore, they [demons] come by night to you and wish to tell the future, or say ‘We are the angels,’ give no h
eed, for they lie. . . . But if they shamelessly stand their ground, capering, and change their forms of appearance, fear them not, nor shrink, nor heed them as though they were good spirits. For the presence either of the good or evil by the help of God can easily be distinguished. The vision of the holy ones is not fraught with distraction: ‘For they will not strive, nor cry, nor shall anyone hear their voice’ [Matt 12:19; cf. Is. 42:2]. But it comes quietly and gently that an immediate joy, gladness, and courage arise in the soul. For the Lord who is our joy is with them, and the power of God the Father” (Ambrose, Life of St. Anthony 35 [A.D. 359]).Augustine
“For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by his sacraments or by the prayers or relics of his saints . . . The miracle which was wrought at Milan when I was there . . . [and when people] had gathered to the bodies of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius, which had long lain concealed and unknown but were now made known to the bishop Ambrose in a dream and discovered by him” (City of God 22:8 [A.D. 419]).
“[T]he martyrs, by the very benefits which are given to them that pray, indicate that they take an interest in the affairs of men . . . For not only by effects of benefits, but in the very beholding of men, it is certain that the confessor Felix . . . appeared when the barbarians were attacking Nola, as we have heard not by uncertain rumors but by sure witness” (ibid., 19).
“A certain man by [the] name Curma [was in a coma] . . . Yet he was seeing many things as in a dream; when at last after a great many days he woke up, he told that he had seen. . . . [He also saw] Hippo, where he was seemingly baptized by me . . . After much that he saw, he narrated how he had, moreover, been led into paradise and how it was there said to him, when he was dismissed to return to his own family, ‘Go, be baptized if you want to be in this place of the blessed.’ Thereupon being admonished to be baptized by me, he said it was done already. He who was talking with him replied, ‘Go, be truly baptized, for you only saw that in a vision.’ After this he recovered, went his way to Hippo. . . . He was baptized [and] at the close of the holy days [of Easter] returned to his own place . . . Why should we not believe these to be angelic operations through the dispensation of the providence of God?” (The Care to be Had for the Dead 15 [A.D. 421]).
Sozomen
“Gregory of Nazianz presided over those who maintain the consubstantiality of the Holy Trinity, and assembled them together in a little dwelling, which had been altered into the form of a house of prayer, by those who held the same opinions and had a like form of worship. It subsequently became one of the most conspicuous in the city, and is so now, not only for the beauty and number of its structures, but also for the advantages accruing to it from the visible manifestations of God. For the power of God was there manifested, and was helpful both in waking visions and in dreams, often for the relief of many diseases and for those afflicted by some sudden transmutation in their affairs. The power was accredited to Mary, the Mother of God, the holy Virgin, for she does manifest herself in this way” (Church History 7:5 [A.D. 444]).
Patrick of Ireland
“And there truly [in Ireland] one night I heard in my sleep a voice saying to me, ‘You fast well; soon you will go to your fatherland.’ And again, after I very short time, I heard the heavenly voice saying to me, ‘Lo, your ship is ready.’ And it was not near at hand, but was distant, perhaps two hundred miles. And I had never been there, nor did I know any person living there. And thereupon I shortly took flight and left the man with whom I had been for six years. And I came in the strength of God, who prospered my way for good; and I met with nothing to alarm me until I reached that ship” (Confession of St. Patrick 17 [A.D. 452]).
“And once more, after a few years, I was in Britain with my family. . . . And there indeed I saw in a vision of the night a man whose name was Victoricus coming as it were from Ireland with countless letters. He gave me one of them, and I read the beginning of the letter, which was entitled ‘The Voice of the Irish.’ And while I was reading aloud the beginning of the letter, I thought that at that very moment I heard the voices of those who dwelt beside the Wood of Foclut [in Ireland], which is nigh unto the Western Sea. And thus they cried, as with one mouth, ‘We beseech you, holy youth, to come and walk once more among us!’” (ibid., 23).
“Let those who will, laugh and mock. I shall not be silent nor conceal the signs and wonders which were shown to me by the Lord many years before they came to pass, since he knows all things even before the world’s beginnings” (ibid., 45).
Hi CA:Focusing on the what was said below:
Quote Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation That which is deemed to be scripture indeed ended with the Apostle John and the book of Revelation, and every book in the New Testament ends with Amen, and that mean that you can not add to it or take away from it, and so, private revelations such as the “trinity” and various other doctrines that the Catholic church teaches are false doctrines based on someone's interpretation of the scriptures.
However, knowledge of the what is already written in the scriptures will increase in the end times, as is written in the book of Daniel,
Quote Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. The word Apostle means “sent by God” and the Acts of the Apostles will continue until the Lord comes for the church, and so, there are still Apostles at the present time in the church, as well as pastors, teachers, evalgelists, and prophets.
The Apostle Paul taught:
Quote Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 30 2009,12:02) Hi CA: Focusing on the what was said below:
Quote Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation That which is deemed to be scripture indeed ended with the Apostle John and the book of Revelation, and every book in the New Testament ends with Amen, and that mean that you can not add to it or take away from it, and so, private revelations such as the “trinity” and various other doctrines that the Catholic church teaches are false doctrines based on someone's interpretation of the scriptures.
Your “Amen” supposition is illogical. No, we aren't supposed to add or subtract from Scripture…but the reason for that is not that the book ended with the word “Amen.”And even if this were so, which you have a very hard case to make there, if this were so it would NOT mean that there could be additional inspired and infallible truth outside of that book.
If this were so, then only ONE of the books of the Bible could be deemed “Scripture.” The doctrine of the “trinity” is not only deduced from and the true understanding of the NT message (i.e. Gospel of John, etc.), it is of apostolic origin. And you have done a poor job of propping up Sola Scriptura. Well…that was an understatement. So you can't really use “well I don't see it in the Bible so it can't be true.”
You haven't proved that only what is in the written word is true and that there is no oral traditions outside of the written text bound on the NT people of God. I have proved to the contrary. (see 2 Thess. 2:15)
Even so, the trinity is provable using Scripture. So you have no case there either. The weakness is only due to personal bias which you seem to have.
As for your Eph. 4:11 quote, we use the term “apostle” but not in the same sense as the office of the twelve. That is something different and more specific.
You are the one with the “false interpretations of Scripture.” You cannot unilaterally claim to be infallible. We have a much better case for that than puny little old you. (or puny little old me)
Hi CA,
No apostle of Jesus mentioned any trinity.
Neither did Jesus or any prophet.
You are deceived.Hi CA,
The utter impudence with which your denomination has put aside the head of the church to install a leader of their own and to raise up new doctrines and set off to politically conquer the earth should convince everyone they have no divine mandate or anointing.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 30 2009,15:56) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 30 2009,12:02) Hi CA: Focusing on the what was said below:
Quote Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation That which is deemed to be scripture indeed ended with the Apostle John and the book of Revelation, and every book in the New Testament ends with Amen, and that mean that you can not add to it or take away from it, and so, private revelations such as the “trinity” and various other doctrines that the Catholic church teaches are false doctrines based on someone's interpretation of the scriptures.
Your “Amen” supposition is illogical. No, we aren't supposed to add or subtract from Scripture…but the reason for that is not that the book ended with the word “Amen.”And even if this were so, which you have a very hard case to make there, if this were so it would NOT mean that there could be additional inspired and infallible truth outside of that book.
If this were so, then only ONE of the books of the Bible could be deemed “Scripture.” The doctrine of the “trinity” is not only deduced from and the true understanding of the NT message (i.e. Gospel of John, etc.), it is of apostolic origin. And you have done a poor job of propping up Sola Scriptura. Well…that was an understatement. So you can't really use “well I don't see it in the Bible so it can't be true.”
You haven't proved that only what is in the written word is true and that there is no oral traditions outside of the written text bound on the NT people of God. I have proved to the contrary. (see 2 Thess. 2:15)
Even so, the trinity is provable using Scripture. So you have no case there either. The weakness is only due to personal bias which you seem to have.
As for your Eph. 4:11 quote, we use the term “apostle” but not in the same sense as the office of the twelve. That is something different and more specific.
You are the one with the “false interpretations of Scripture.” You cannot unilaterally claim to be infallible. We have a much better case for that than puny little old you. (or puny little old me)
You could not be any wronger. The doctrine of the trinity is not of God, but of a man called Qjuintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. Constantine who granted full freedom to practice their religion, after three centuries of brutal and bloody percecution. And in A.D. 321 He issued an edit forbidding work on Sunday and making it a day of worship.
In A.D. 324 He established Christianity as the official religion of his empire. It will be known as the Roman Universal Church.
He not only changed the Sabbath, but also all of Gods Holidays into mans Holydays, like Christmas and Easter etc. Gods Holidays are listed in Leviticus 23.starting in verse 1
And all have been deceived since then. Only a few have been called and understand the truth. We used to keep all of those Feasts in the W.W. Church of God. Unfortunately all went back to worldly Holy Days. My Husband and I have stayed Home since then. That has been 25 years ago. God has shown us other truths, and we know that He is with us. I really enjoyed keeping all of those Feasts, and I am looking forward that one day, we will do it again. One more thing, all revelations that the Catholics keep are not revelations from God, but are from men. What I can't understand is that even the worship of Maria is still being done. The Church used to even worship all the Saints too. I remember how I used to adore St. Anthony. My Husband used to have a small Statue of him on the Car mirror. No more, I only worshiop our Heavenly Father now. In Rev. 18:4 says to come out of Her my People. We have. “In vain do they worship me, teaching the doctrine the commandments of men.” Math. 15:9 That is what the Catholic Church is doing. And some have done away with it. Most here on Heaven Net Forum, know what I am talking about. Only you don't understand, so sad. Heed the warning, and come out of Her my People, Scriptures say.Peace and Love Irene
Quote (georg @ Sep. 30 2009,17:28) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 30 2009,15:56) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 30 2009,12:02) Hi CA: Focusing on the what was said below:
Quote Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation That which is deemed to be scripture indeed ended with the Apostle John and the book of Revelation, and every book in the New Testament ends with Amen, and that mean that you can not add to it or take away from it, and so, private revelations such as the “trinity” and various other doctrines that the Catholic church teaches are false doctrines based on someone's interpretation of the scriptures.
Your “Amen” supposition is illogical. No, we aren't supposed to add or subtract from Scripture…but the reason for that is not that the book ended with the word “Amen.”And even if this were so, which you have a very hard case to make there, if this were so it would NOT mean that there could be additional inspired and infallible truth outside of that book.
If this were so, then only ONE of the books of the Bible could be deemed “Scripture.” The doctrine of the “trinity” is not only deduced from and the true understanding of the NT message (i.e. Gospel of John, etc.), it is of apostolic origin. And you have done a poor job of propping up Sola Scriptura. Well…that was an understatement. So you can't really use “well I don't see it in the Bible so it can't be true.”
You haven't proved that only what is in the written word is true and that there is no oral traditions outside of the written text bound on the NT people of God. I have proved to the contrary. (see 2 Thess. 2:15)
Even so, the trinity is provable using Scripture. So you have no case there either. The weakness is only due to personal bias which you seem to have.
As for your Eph. 4:11 quote, we use the term “apostle” but not in the same sense as the office of the twelve. That is something different and more specific.
You are the one with the “false interpretations of Scripture.” You cannot unilaterally claim to be infallible. We have a much better case for that than puny little old you. (or puny little old me)
You could not be any wronger. The doctrine of the trinity is not of God, but of a man called Qjuintus Septimus Florens Tertullian. Constantine who granted full freedom to practice their religion, after three centuries of brutal and bloody percecution. And in A.D. 321 He issued an edit forbidding work on Sunday and making it a day of worship.
In A.D. 324 He established Christianity as the official religion of his empire. It will be known as the Roman Universal Church.
He not only changed the Sabbath, but also all of Gods Holidays into mans Holydays, like Christmas and Easter etc. Gods Holidays are listed in Leviticus 23.starting in verse 1
And all have been deceived since then. Only a few have been called and understand the truth. We used to keep all of those Feasts in the W.W. Church of God. Unfortunately all went back to worldly Holy Days. My Husband and I have stayed Home since then. That has been 25 years ago. God has shown us other truths, and we know that He is with us. I really enjoyed keeping all of those Feasts, and I am looking forward that one day, we will do it again. One more thing, all revelations that the Catholics keep are not revelations from God, but are from men. What I can't understand is that even the worship of Maria is still being done. The Church used to even worship all the Saints too. I remember how I used to adore St. Anthony. My Husband used to have a small Statue of him on the Car mirror. No more, I only worshiop our Heavenly Father now. In Rev. 18:4 says to come out of Her my People. We have. “In vain do they worship me, teaching the doctrine the commandments of men.” Math. 15:9 That is what the Catholic Church is doing. And some have done away with it. Most here on Heaven Net Forum, know what I am talking about. Only you don't understand, so sad. Heed the warning, and come out of Her my People, Scriptures say.Peace and Love Irene
Irene,I have showed you over and over earlier patristic sources for belief in the Trinity in the Church. But you have ignored.
You know we don't worship Mary. Shame on you. Satan is the father of lies. Be careful.
So Armstrong got you to forsake the assembling of yourselves with the Church of God? What will his judgement be? May God have mercy upon his soul.
How can it be so convincing to you that the Church is wrong based upon these things you have cited? The Church converted the pagan world and got rid of it's idolatry and lewdness. Cultural elements were neutral so they were sanctified.
As for assembling on the Fist Day of the week, this is the eighth day of Creation. Those of the former creation that is passing away are free to observe the Sabbath of the Mosaic law.
Now I have to laugh, the rosary is even said on the T.V,. 10 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Marias. Boy you could have fooled me, that you don't worship Maria. What is it if you pray to Her. As far as the trinity is concerned again you are wrong. It is indeed a man made doctrine, and not of God. Wake up.
I am so sorry that you listen to your Pope and Bishops, they are so wrong in their believes.
Irene
Quote (georg @ Oct. 01 2009,05:34) Now I have to laugh, the rosary is even said on the T.V,. 10 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Marias. Boy you could have fooled me, that you don't worship Maria. What is it if you pray to Her. As far as the trinity is concerned again you are wrong. It is indeed a man made doctrine, and not of God. Wake up.
I am so sorry that you listen to your Pope and Bishops, they are so wrong in their believes.
Irene
I'm talking to you. Am I worshiping you?The Old English word “pray” means ask or beseech. That's what it means. Ask. As in “I pray thee.”
Please will you consider what I am saying? (There did that question I asked constitute worship?)
Hi CA,
Where is it written that natural men can reach the saved in the mansions of Christ by prayer?
Where is it written that they can intercede for the living and yet unsaved?
Where is it written that there are other mediators apart from Jesus?Fanciful follies of the desperate and guilt bound.
Are you for real, look up what it means to worship in the Webster Dictonary.
It means a PRAYER, A CHURCH SWERVICE, OR OTHER RITS SHOWING REFFERRENCE, INTENSE LOVE OR ADMORATION. TO SHOW RELIGIOS REVERENCE.
So when you say 10 Hail Masria you worship her. And you can't tell me that you don't love Maria and admire her.
All along with the trinuity doctrine wrong doctrine and idn ain do you worship Me, it says in
Math. 15:9
Peaceand Love Irene
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