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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2008,21:29) Hi Hanoch,
That deduction rejects Lord Jesus as the Truth and the Master.
Think again.
So is this a rejection of the OT? If you want Jesus surely you have to dispense with the Jewish part. The literal bits like animal sacrifice, genealogies and trusting your own judgement are literally in opposition; fulfilment of prophecy is the claim made on behalf of Jesus but it is more waffly than a psychic cold reading so that link between the testaments is more imagined and self-fulfilled than anything; and the overall picture of the nature of god in each is a huge contrast, more than just a “new relationship” with humans or cancellation of mosaic law. Paulianity and the Fictions of John are light years from Judaism. How can the two testaments be combined with a straight face?Stuart
Just wait, if you get an answer, it will be how they beautifully flow with each other. It will not be a real answer, but that doesn't matter.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2006,11:27) Hi,
The canon is a subject that should have more input. Over the centuries all sorts of additions and deletions to the canon have occurred. Often the letters of John and Peter and Jude, Revelation and the book of Hebrews have fallen out of favour, while others have been included. I cannot do without any of these but feel we are being robbed of information we need. Should we not search out what is missing and hold them too?
I am a-mazed at this vintage post of yours, Nick.You are one to always stick with “Scripture” – meaning – that which is already written. The Canon.
Anything else is speculative, at best. Right? We shouldn't look for other “revelations” outside of the bible. Right? I've heard you preach/parrot this for so long now.
Are you serious when you say we should search out what is missing and hold them too? Goodness! That is pretty liberal thinking there, mister.
Posted on another Forum
====================================================================================Date Posted: 11:56:04 03/20/09 Fri
Author: Capital Rendition
Subject: Canon of NT Scripture?
In reply to: Sheepdog 's message, “Re: Rants about the “lost gospels” (another exploration of one of Sheepdog's tangents)” on 17:22:26 08/27/05 Sat(1) Gospel of Thomas.
Source: Judas Thomas the Twin (St.Thomas)
Year c.37 a.d.
Notations: Possible the elusive “Q” text. Recorded before Christians understood the need for own Scriptures; irremediably damaged in transmission; rejected for changes wrought by Gnostics.(2) Gospel of John Mark
Sources: Shimon/Kepha (St. Peter), possibly “Q” additions
Year c.42-45 a.d.
Notations: first authoritative NT writing(3) Gospel of Levi/Matthew (Gospel to the Hebrews)
Sources: Levi/Matthew, possibly “Q” additions
Year c.50-52 a.d.
Notations: oldest known manuscripts, radiocarbon dated to c.75-80 a.d. with obvious copyist corrections (original has to be older)(4) Gospel of Luke & Book of Acts of the Apostles
Sources: Luke, Miryam/Virgin Mary, Shaul/Paul, Bar-Navi/Barnabas, possibly “Q” additions
Year c.58-60 a.d.
Notations: Two-volume work. No mention in “Acts” of the martyrdoms of Shimon/Kepha (St.Peter in 61-62 a.d.) or Shaul (St.Paul in 64-65 a.d.)(5) Gospel of Yohannan/John
Sources: Yohannan/John, Miryam/Virgin Mary, Miryam of Magdala/Mary Magdalene.
Year c.65-75 a.d. (unclear)
Notations: Non-synoptic gospel comprising basic Church theodicy.(6) Epistles
Years c.45-65 a.d. (most referenced in Acts)(7) Apocalypse of Yohannan/John
Source: Yohannan/John
Year c.95 a.d.
Notation: last book accepted as scripture by Christian community.During this time, there was a growing recognition that these works were inspired in the same sense that the OT books were. Until this recognition was made explicit, what had been regarded as scripture were:
(1) The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures, including the deuterocanonical books known as the Apocrypha.
(2) The Three Books of Enoch.
(3) Some of the Essene writings (The Teacher of Righteousness, for one).
(4) To a lesser extent, the Book of Formation, the Book of Brilliance, the Talmud, the Midrash, & targums.
Due to the resources involved, few people had “the Scriptures” available in their entirety, leaving those preaching the Gospel for the next century to rely on other tools. The most popular of these were the “Didache (Teachings) of the Apostles”, and the “Diatessaron of Tatian” (a harmony of the four Gospels). For teaching purposes, these stood in the stead of any “approved” Scripture.
This approval, rule, or “canon” of Scripture was finalized by about 150-160 a.d., and, except for some debate about substituting the “Second Epistle of Clement” for the “Apocalypse”, is the same canon we use today. It was documented in c.177-180 a.d. by Irenaeus of Lyons, in his work “Against the Heresies.” This standardization was ostensibly to eliminate the Gnostic claptrap that had grown up around Christianity in the previous hundred years, but more importantly, it was necessary because of a heretic named Marcion (& his followers), who tried to hijack the Scriptures (and Christianity along with them), claiming that anything “Jewish” about them was totally invalid and needed to be burned. They thus rejected the OT & the Gospels, accepting only the Epistles of Paul. (No problem with consistency THERE, mind you.)
Please note that all the NT apocrypha/pseudepigrapha were thus ALREADY excluded by the Church more than 150 years before Constantine was even born. These include but are not limited to:
The Secret Gospel of Mark
The Gospel of the Aeons
The Apocalypse of Peter
The Apocalypse of Mary
The Gospel of Philip
The Shepherd of Hermas
etc.
etc.
etc.But do note that “The Gospel of Barnabas” is specifically excluded from this list, as it is not a 1st- or 2nd-century piece of NT apocrypha, but rather a 15th-century anti-Christian Muslim forgery (like the 10th-century anti-Jewish Muslim forgery “Alphabet of Ben-Sira” or the 19th-century anti-Jewish Muslim forgery “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”).
(BTW, there's a chance I inadvertently included some facts above. There are no guarantees that I just made this all up off the top of my head.)
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=========================================================================================Hi B
you should look up Origen he is sec cenutry rwitter ,you will find him interesting also is connection of the time.(look on thr Internet)
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