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Quote (david @ Aug. 18 2006,02:13) Quote Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. ” And the angels, the children of the heaven”, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'The angels in Enoch were the children of HEAVEN. Not Satan's followers. Now if the angels (in heaven) cannot withstand the temptation of the flesh, not being flesh, being made above we humans, then what chance do we who are made LOWER than the angles HAVE?!?
We are lower than the angles and subject to temptation of the flesh:
Heb 2:6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:Now you choose scripture or a book which according to Jude is not a book of Enoch.
I don't know David. I suppose IF angelic beings had sex with humans then they would not be whole human? Wouldn't you?
I don't know that I can believe anything out of a book that isn't a book at all.
How could you being a Spirit being have sex. Scriptures says you cannot.
EVEN IF YOU COULD:
Would you give up heaven to have sex with a LOWER being?“For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.”
Angels in heaven do not marry. They are not given in marriage. They do not reproduce their own kind. They were created in a different way. But none of this actually contradicts that book.
When the angels began to notice the daughters of men and came down to the earth and took on human form (have not angels done this at other times) it appears they did have sexual relations with women, although Jehovah never created them for this purpose and they most likely didn't get married. (Not that they would care to uphold the divine institution of marriage) This scripture in itself doesn't actually contradict the Bible.You also say: “Now if the angels (in heaven) cannot withstand the temptation of the flesh, not being flesh, being made above we humans, then what chance do we who are made LOWER than the angles HAVE?!?”
The angels are not robots. They too have free will. Jehovah would rather have someone serve him out of love than have a robot follow him. Right? You raise a good point. The angels in heaven COULD withstand this temptation. We know this because many of them did. Those who chose to disobey God's will were punished for it. And the offspring they produced were not normal children. They are referred to as Nephilim. The “SON'S” that were bore to them were called mighty ones, and men of fame or literally, men of “name.” They were not ordinary children.
We also know this is about the time that the world became very violent, so much so that Jehovah destroyed that world. He destroyed it because things were going in a bad course, the wrong direction. These Nephilim were a part of the reason for this wickedness. God actually stepped in and destroyed that world.“Now you choose scripture or a book which according to Jude is not a book of Enoch.”
If the two contrast, obviously it would be the Bible that is correct. I don't think we can even be absolutely sure that Jude was quoting from the book of enoch. It seems to me that if the book of Enoch is an inspired book that deserves our attention, God would have made certain that it was included in “His Word,” the Bible.“I don't know David. I suppose IF angelic beings had sex with humans then they would not be whole human? Wouldn't you?”
Obviously, K, neither of of has first hand experience with this. We have only what the Bible tells us. And we are told that the offspring was called Nephilim. Why the distinction with this name? Why are we told they were the mighty ones of old, the men of fame?
History is filled with myths of gods and demi gods, (half gods, half humans). These legends may have been passed down and may have some common source, the Nephilim.
Obviously, K, neither of of has first hand experience with this. We have only what the Bible tells us. And we are told that the offspring was called Nephilim. Why the distinction with this name? Why are we told they were the mighty ones of old, the men of fame?History is filled with myths of gods and demi gods, (half gods, half humans). These legends may have been passed down and may have some common source, the Nephilim.
You said that right “myths of gods and demi gods”.
The word Nephilim means giant, peroid!
nephîyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, [half angel?] that is, a bully [part angel?] or tyrant: – giant [monster?].Nephilim does not mean half angel and half human. Now does it?
God gave angels the power to change to flesh “with all the proper tools to create through humans”?The word says angels in heaven don't marry. The fallen angels somehow found this new found power to do what the “book” of Enoch suggest?
My 2 cents?
In Jesus' time, the Gospel accounts are full of demons inhabiting humans and giving them super human strength such as the man who approached Jesus after having broken his chains.
This is well after Noah's day when angels DID apparently have the power to form human bodies for themselves in order to co-habit with the daughters of men, (namely all whom they chose). This was not purposed for them but aberrant behavior which yielded genetic freaks.
God had to destroy them because they could have ruined the blood line of the coming Messiah.
One other thing. God does not hold angels against their will any more than He does us. That's why a third of them left their places in heaven to enjoy sex with women. I mean they DO see everything that we humans do. Their eyes caused them to lust after something that was not for them, so they gave in to that temptation willingly.Makes you think that if angels can be tempted to fall, we REALLY need to stay in union with the Lord Jesus!
I'm out of here before I get into trouble….
Semmy
Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 20 2006,04:35) My 2 cents? In Jesus' time, the Gospel accounts are full of demons inhabiting humans and giving them super human strength such as the man who approached Jesus after having broken his chains.
This is well after Noah's day when angels DID apparently have the power to form human bodies for themselves in order to co-habit with the daughters of men, (namely all whom they chose). This was not purposed for them but aberrant behavior which yielded genetic freaks.
God had to destroy them because they could have ruined the blood line of the coming Messiah.
One other thing. God does not hold angels against their will any more than He does us. That's why a third of them left their places in heaven to enjoy sex with women. I mean they DO see everything that we humans do. Their eyes caused them to lust after something that was not for them, so they gave in to that temptation willingly.Makes you think that if angels can be tempted to fall, we REALLY need to stay in union with the Lord Jesus!
I'm out of here before I get into trouble….
Semmy
Semmy, then is God a respecter of angels? Apparently the daughters of men had not their head covered for the angels to lust after them. Paul said that the women should cover their head because of angels.The angels that fell lusted because women had not their head covered. The angels of today don't lust because the women (are supposed too) cover their heads.
That being the case then how are the fallen angels guility. If the women had their head covered back in Noah's time would the angels have lusted?
When Paul talks of the women covering their head for the angels sake; How do you know he was speaking of spirit beings. He very well could have speaking of the HUMAN sons of God.
Angels cannot have sex! They cannot procreate. God created them that way. I cannot agree that God gave them the power to become human and then reproduce themselves and create MONSTERS who BTW devoured men.
If the offspring of the fallen angels were devouring men why would God have to destroy man (Gen. 6:5-7)?
It makes a good Si Fi movie and one has already come out. I may have posted this before. The movie was called “Fallen” it was about the fallen angels and there NOW offspring.
No scripture suggest what the so called book of Enoch says.Again I'll stick to scripture. You guys should too!
Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. ” And the angels, the children of the heaven”, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'//////////////////////. I know a parable when I see one. My 3 cents worth. In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN”. Angels is the INTERPRETATION for the words ” messenger of God”. The word “SATAN” literally means “OPPOSITION”. The parable is about the continual state of sin of mankind. The Nephilim are men who are of a very low moral grade. Those who have fallen from grace. Nephilim = The fallen ones. Angels = messengers of God. Heaven is also the earth according to God. The book of Enoch literally says that it is a parable. Now I would like to know if you think I was voiceing my opinion, or was I speaking as a matter of fact. Tell me what you think or feel!
Quote (MichaelTheeArchAngel @ Aug. 20 2006,22:39) Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. ” And the angels, the children of the heaven”, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'//////////////////////. I know a parable when I see one. My 3 cents worth. In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN”. Angels is the INTERPRETATION for the words ” messenger of God”. The word “SATAN” literally means “OPPOSITION”. The parable is about the continual state of sin of mankind. The Nephilim are men who are of a very low moral grade. Those who have fallen from grace. Nephilim = The fallen ones. Angels = messengers of God. Heaven is also the earth according to God. The book of Enoch literally says that it is a parable. Now I would like to know if you think I was voiceing my opinion, or was I speaking as a matter of fact. Tell me what you think or feel!
In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the ” heavens 'and' the earth”.The Nephilim are men who are of a very low moral grade
Those who have fallen from grace.
Nephilim = The fallen ones
*The word Nephilim means giant, peroid!
nephîyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, [half angel?] that is, a bully [part angel?] or tyrant: – giant [monster?].Nephilim does not mean half angel and half human. Now does it?
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that… The giants were on earth before and after the sons of God went into the daughters of men. So the giants do not describe the offspring of the sons of God mix with the daughters of women. The offspring became “mighty MEN”.
Even IF the giants describe the offspring of the sons of God then Goliath would not have happened for God destroyed all flesh execpt Noah and family. You see every way you turn scripture disagrees with the so called “book” of Enoch.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, “The end of all flesh” [did this include giants?] [did this include the offspring of the sons of God] is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
The book of Enoch literally says that it is a parable. Now I would like to know if you think I was voiceing my opinion, or was I speaking as a matter of fact.
*As you know I don't believe the book of Enoch to be fact. So any of your conclusions are not scriptural and therefore are not fact.
However if you have your mind is made up and is full of pride then you will not even consider scripture.In fact I believe that Paul WAS speaking of human messengers(angels) that lusted after women just as those in the days of Noah.
1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.
1Co 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to have his head veiled, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man:
1Co 11:9 for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:
1Co 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: – angel, messenger.Hi kenrch
“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the ” heavens 'and' the earth”??.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 21 2006,00:26) Hi kenrch
“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the ” heavens 'and' the earth”??.
Oh ok so the the first heaven is the dirt of the earth? Is the atmosphere the earth?It doesn't matter any way you cut it the book of Enoch is a bunch of bunk.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 21 2006,00:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 21 2006,00:26) Hi kenrch
“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the ” heavens 'and' the earth”??.
Oh ok so the the first heaven is the dirt of the earth? Is the atmosphere the earth?It doesn't matter any way you cut it the book of Enoch is a bunch of bunk.
???
Heaven is earth?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 21 2006,00:41) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 21 2006,00:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 21 2006,00:26) Hi kenrch
“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the ” heavens 'and' the earth”??.
Oh ok so the the first heaven is the dirt of the earth? Is the atmosphere the earth?It doesn't matter any way you cut it the book of Enoch is a bunch of bunk.
???
Heaven is earth?
dude! what are you trying to say
Hi k,
first you say“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God”Then
“Oh ok so the the first heaven is the dirt of the earth? Is the atmosphere the earth?”
which all seems on the surface to be to be
“a bunch of bunk”.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 21 2006,02:47) Hi k,
first you say“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God”Then
“Oh ok so the the first heaven is the dirt of the earth? Is the atmosphere the earth?”
which all seems on the surface to be to be
“a bunch of bunk”.
Nick this was Michaeltheearchangel's ouote not mine:“In Genisis God calls the earth “HEAVEN
Heaven is also the earth according to God”My quote was scripture:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Heavens AND earth. You dig dude! Sorry for the mix up. But you know I said from the beginning that I don't have good communication skills.
Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. KJV. Since anything I may say is my opinion; then I see no need to say anything more.Quote (MichaelTheeArchAngel @ Aug. 21 2006,18:15) Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. KJV. Since anything I may say is my opinion; then I see no need to say anything more.
Michael t angel.Firmament is the sky which is called the first heaven. Their is nothing wrong with opinions as long as we have “some” scripture to back our opinions up and explain that it is our belief and not a revlation from God.
Thanks for your honesty!Opinions are fine, so long as they are not taught as fact or are not taught in a manner where you say others must also believe as you do.
Sometimes opinions lead onto us learning new things.
Often God gives us a conviction, then we discover that scripture backs that up. At that point you can teach it.
Otherwise we can say, “I think” or “my conviction is”…
So long as we are clear where we are coming from. After all, we don't want to become a false teacher.
So it is for our own good as much as it is for the hearers.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2006,23:40) Opinions are fine, so long as they are not taught as fact or are not taught in a manner where you say others must also believe as you do. Sometimes opinions lead onto us learning new things.
Often God gives us a conviction, then we discover that scripture backs that up. At that point you can teach it.
Otherwise we can say, “I think” or “my conviction is”…
So long as we are clear where we are coming from. After all, we don't want to become a false teacher.
So it is for our own good as much as it is for the hearers.
Amen t8! Amen!
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