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Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 12 2006,06:57) How does the book of Enoch describe Jesus so precisely?
Why does the book of Enoch have fulfilled prophecy?
Why does Jude quote it?
Why is the new testament filled with terminology, parables,quotes, references and corralations to the book of Enoch?
Why did the pre-nicean church consider it scripture?
Why does the view I am proposing fit into the mosaic of scripture like a puzzel piece, yet in order to fit in your view it requires statements like, “Well, I know it says that but what it really means is [insert biased presupposition]”.
Is it scripture? NO!
Does it teach against scripture? YES!Do what you want by all means. But I can't agree with you.
If you believe you are right what difference does it make what I believe. But tell me what has the “book” of Enoch taught you?
“…stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.” I Tm 1:3-5
MYTH : A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society; A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology; a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.
Here we see that arguing about myths that produce no fruit of mutual edification is not new. So God, through the apostle Paul exhorts us to not focus on such things. In another passage he encourages us to only talk about things that promote love, peace, unity…
This book of Enoch, the koran, Jehova witness' Bible, and all the other religions in the world have some “truth” to it. We need to understand that the devil can not create truth, he can only twist it. That's why we will always find some “truth” in the devil's lies. He tried that trap with Jesus in the desert, remember? He used truth but for the wrong purpose.
An article mentioned that in the satanist's bible there are passages exalting Jehova. Which had to be “corrected” later after found… But we could never say that satan's bible was God's Word just because it contained “truth”. Modern churches today are encouraging people to watch secular movies and find spiritual truths in it. For whatever reason, we have not been content with the Scriptures that are inspired by God and has the power even to go to the depths of a man and separate joints and marrow… Just like in the old testment stories about the israelites, we're in search for more than what God wants to give us. We want the grass on the other side of the fence. We want the forbidden fruit because of our greed. Greed because God has given so much abundance of fruit in this garden (Bible) but no, we had to go for the myterious one…again!
This passage, and many others in the Bible are strange, mysterious and have no explanation of it whatsoever anywhere else in Scripture. They are good to estimulate our curiosity but the bottom of the line is, Do they edify or do not edify? Some will just cause us to feed our intelect and produce no fruit of righteousness, but rather, a sense of superiority, pride and self-righteousness, leading us to a total blindness, seeing so much ignorance around us and never able to see the tree in our own eyes! If this is what the devil intended to reach by throwing some “truth” back then, he is sure achieving his plans. Today more than ever, the church is weak, shallow, superficial, blind, entertainers, prosperity promisers, fun oriented, full of sin, anger, unforgiven hearts, homossexualism in pulpits, divided and wasting their time provoking further war and division within themselves while hundreds and thousands of people are going to an eternity without Jesus EVERYDAY! But we are so filled with indiference consumed by SELF.
Jesus said, “whoever wants to follow me, deny yourself and pick up your cross daily and follow me.” -He is leading- but if he looked back as He goes, would He see you?
This is a question that challenges you and me…everyday.I don't know all things, but I know that what I know has completely transformed my life. And that was the truth that Paul mentions, “I claim to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified.” Let's not lose focus brothers. Let's not be like Martha, concerned about many things and miss the most important one, which is, sit at His feet and become more like Him as we focus on Him.
I Co 13:12 “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
For now I know in part, and understand that I'll never be able to know it all before I die. If I had it all figured out, then the infinite God wouldn't be no more god than me. But I know that in that day, as this scripture says – then I shall know fully.
God bless you all
According to the book of Enoch, it is meant for a remote generation. If that is the case and if it is corrupted, then that remote generation will never get it.
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be
2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said –Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is
3 for to come…And now, my son Methuselah, all these things I am recounting to thee and writing down for thee! and I have revealed to thee everything, and given thee books concerning all these: so preserve, my son Methuselah, the books from thy father's hand, and (see) that thou deliver them to the generations of the world.
Quote (His @ Aug. 13 2006,07:10) “…stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.” I Tm 1:3-5 MYTH : A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society; A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology; a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.
Here we see that arguing about myths that produce no fruit of mutual edification is not new. So God, through the apostle Paul exhorts us to not focus on such things. In another passage he encourages us to only talk about things that promote love, peace, unity…
This book of Enoch, the koran, Jehova witness' Bible, and all the other religions in the world have some “truth” to it. We need to understand that the devil can not create truth, he can only twist it. That's why we will always find some “truth” in the devil's lies. He tried that trap with Jesus in the desert, remember? He used truth but for the wrong purpose.
An article mentioned that in the satanist's bible there are passages exalting Jehova. Which had to be “corrected” later after found… But we could never say that satan's bible was God's Word just because it contained “truth”. Modern churches today are encouraging people to watch secular movies and find spiritual truths in it. For whatever reason, we have not been content with the Scriptures that are inspired by God and has the power even to go to the depths of a man and separate joints and marrow… Just like in the old testment stories about the israelites, we're in search for more than what God wants to give us. We want the grass on the other side of the fence. We want the forbidden fruit because of our greed. Greed because God has given so much abundance of fruit in this garden (Bible) but no, we had to go for the myterious one…again!
This passage, and many others in the Bible are strange, mysterious and have no explanation of it whatsoever anywhere else in Scripture. They are good to estimulate our curiosity but the bottom of the line is, Do they edify or do not edify? Some will just cause us to feed our intelect and produce no fruit of righteousness, but rather, a sense of superiority, pride and self-righteousness, leading us to a total blindness, seeing so much ignorance around us and never able to see the tree in our own eyes! If this is what the devil intended to reach by throwing some “truth” back then, he is sure achieving his plans. Today more than ever, the church is weak, shallow, superficial, blind, entertainers, prosperity promisers, fun oriented, full of sin, anger, unforgiven hearts, homossexualism in pulpits, divided and wasting their time provoking further war and division within themselves while hundreds and thousands of people are going to an eternity without Jesus EVERYDAY! But we are so filled with indiference consumed by SELF.
Jesus said, “whoever wants to follow me, deny yourself and pick up your cross daily and follow me.” -He is leading- but if he looked back as He goes, would He see you?
This is a question that challenges you and me…everyday.I don't know all things, but I know that what I know has completely transformed my life. And that was the truth that Paul mentions, “I claim to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified.” Let's not lose focus brothers. Let's not be like Martha, concerned about many things and miss the most important one, which is, sit at His feet and become more like Him as we focus on Him.
I Co 13:12 “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
For now I know in part, and understand that I'll never be able to know it all before I die. If I had it all figured out, then the infinite God wouldn't be no more god than me. But I know that in that day, as this scripture says – then I shall know fully.
God bless you all
Yea! That's what I wanted to say!!
Thanks!!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 11 2006,22:23) Hi Mike,
You say
“A man can also be a / Messenger of God.= Angel.”
So Men are angels?
What about donkey messengers of God -are they angels too??
Yes, even a donkey or a man; Nothing is impossible for God. Literally, and biblically, a man or a person from the Kingdom of God can be a messenger of God. “Messenger of God” is thee literal translation of the word “angel”The reason you dont see the book of Enoch with our bible scripture today, is because secret societies objected to it. Supposidly a spell has been cast to prevent the angels { messengers of God} from fulfilling prophecy. Did you know that the two witnesses to come are “ArchAngels” (Cheif messengers of God). The Two Witnesses are flesh and blood men born in the last days. While they are here on earth they have the authority of 4 wings;but when they enter into the Kingdom of God, power and authority will be added to them, and they will have 6 wings. Wings are symbolic of status. Somtimes Im not sure if I want to visit some churches, because of their Masonic symbols they post in front of the church. The symbols are posted to let members know that there is a Masonic influance over that church. And so, do you think that the spell is working? Will Gods word fail? When Yahshua comes will he still find faith?
Quote Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. ” And the angels, the children of the heaven”, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'The angels in Enoch were the children of HEAVEN. Not Satan's followers. Now if the angels (in heaven) cannot withstand the temptation of the flesh, not being flesh, being made above we humans, then what chance do we who are made LOWER than the angles HAVE?!?
We are lower than the angles and subject to temptation of the flesh:
Heb 2:6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:Now you choose scripture or a book which according to Jude is not a book of Enoch.
I don't know David. I suppose IF angelic beings had sex with humans then they would not be whole human? Wouldn't you?
I don't know that I can believe anything out of a book that isn't a book at all.
How could you being a Spirit being have sex. Scriptures says you cannot.
EVEN IF YOU COULD:
Would you give up heaven to have sex with a LOWER being?“For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.”
Angels in heaven do not marry. They are not given in marriage. They do not reproduce their own kind. They were created in a different way. But none of this actually contradicts that book.
When the angels began to notice the daughters of men and came down to the earth and took on human form (have not angels done this at other times) it appears they did have sexual relations with women, although Jehovah never created them for this purpose and they most likely didn't get married. (Not that they would care to uphold the divine institution of marriage) This scripture in itself doesn't actually contradict the Bible.You also say: “Now if the angels (in heaven) cannot withstand the temptation of the flesh, not being flesh, being made above we humans, then what chance do we who are made LOWER than the angles HAVE?!?”
The angels are not robots. They too have free will. Jehovah would rather have someone serve him out of love than have a robot follow him. Right? You raise a good point. The angels in heaven COULD withstand this temptation. We know this because many of them did. Those who chose to disobey God's will were punished for it. And the offspring they produced were not normal children. They are referred to as Nephilim. The “SON'S” that were bore to them were called mighty ones, and men of fame or literally, men of “name.” They were not ordinary children.
We also know this is about the time that the world became very violent, so much so that Jehovah destroyed that world. He destroyed it because things were going in a bad course, the wrong direction. These Nephilim were a part of the reason for this wickedness. God actually stepped in and destroyed that world.“Now you choose scripture or a book which according to Jude is not a book of Enoch.”
If the two contrast, obviously it would be the Bible that is correct. I don't think we can even be absolutely sure that Jude was quoting from the book of enoch. It seems to me that if the book of Enoch is an inspired book that deserves our attention, God would have made certain that it was included in “His Word,” the Bible.“I don't know David. I suppose IF angelic beings had sex with humans then they would not be whole human? Wouldn't you?”
Obviously, K, neither of of has first hand experience with this. We have only what the Bible tells us. And we are told that the offspring was called Nephilim. Why the distinction with this name? Why are we told they were the mighty ones of old, the men of fame?
History is filled with myths of gods and demi gods, (half gods, half humans). These legends may have been passed down and may have some common source, the Nephilim.
I was just looking up the book of Enoch on Wickepedia. It says that:
“Most modern scholars consider the Enochic literature to be pseudepigraphal.” But it doesn't say why most scholars believe that this book's authorship has been wrongly attributed. What are the reasons why most believe this?Anyone?
Is this book attributed to Enoch? And does it not basically begin by saying: “Enoch, a righteous man….”
Looking through the Bible, I see candor, humility. Unless I am misunderstanding, this is not candor.It's also odd that such a string of angels would be mentioned by name, when “God's Word” seems to avoid this. Only 2 names are mentioned in the whole Bible.
The lack of more names was a safeguard against giving undue honor and worship to these creatures.
Angels were dispatched by God as agents to act in his name, not in their own name. Hence, when Jacob asked an angel for his name, he refused to give it. (Ge 32:29)
The angel that approached Joshua, when asked to identify himself, replied only that he was “prince of the army of Jehovah.” (Jos 5:14)
When Samson’s parents asked an angel for his name, he withheld it, saying: “Just why should you ask about my name, when it is a wonderful one?” (Jg 13:17, 18)
The apostle John attempted to worship angels and was twice rebuked: “Be careful! Do not do that! . . . Worship God.”—Re 19:10; 22:8, 9.
Similarly, speaking of angels, in God's Word, we never find the word “archangel” in plural. We are never told that there is more than one “chief angel” or chief of the angels. Yet, in Enoch, there are many archangels.
As well, in XXII, does not the idea of a dead man being conscious contradict the Bible's statement that the dead are conscious of nothing at all? (Eccl.)
Perhaps, this is just one of Satan's many tactics to deceive.
hmmm. Interesting Nick. In LVI, verse 8, it mentions the “destruction” of the “sinners.” I believe this would contradict what you believe if you belive that sinners are not actually destroyed but face an eternal ongoing destruction, but never destruction itself.
LXXI, verse 1
His spirit ascended into the heavens? And he saw the holy sons of God, in heaven? I thought the Bible said that “no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3)OK, I've just randomly been skimming this. I'm going to stop now. Is there anyone out there who knows that actual reasons why most scholars consider these books to not be written by Enoch?
david
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 13 2006,23:12) Is it scripture? NO!
Does it teach against scripture? YES!Do what you want by all means. But I can't agree with you.
If you believe you are right what difference does it make what I believe. But tell me what has the “book” of Enoch taught you?
To kenrch.Not sure if you have provided proof for this, but what is your basis for making these statements?
Yes, someone somewhere must have reasons for believing that Enoch was not the writer. If most modern scholars believe this, what are their reasons?
anyone?
Hi david,
Some angels are called sons of God, so that are the ones likely to be called holy and in heaven. Some angels are also called princes, such as Michael, one of the chief princes according to Daniel. Jesus ao course is called there the Prince of Princes too.
Destruction is destruction but the time it takes is not known.destruction:
1. process of destroying: the act or process of destroying something
2. destroyed state: the condition of having been destroyed
You look at the first definition and contend that something can be destroyed for eternity. In other words, it is never actually destroyed. You have just created a paradox or an impossibility, based on the meaning of the word. If something is in the process of being destroyed forever, then it is never actually destroyed.
What you suggest is not destruction, but torture.Quote Destruction is destruction but the time it takes is not known. I had been under the impression that you believed that it takes eternity? An infinite amount of time?
They will undergoe the punishment of “eternal destruction.” (2 thess 1:9)
This does not mean that they will slowly, never endingly be destroyed, (but not really destroyed, as it takes forever). It means they will be destroyed, as in “the condition of having been destroyed” for all time. No hope of life.
Fire was used in Bible times as the most thorough means of destruction. Hence, Jesus used fire to illustrate the complete destruction of the wicked.—Mt 13:40-42, 49, 50
Actually, how does this relate to Enoch?
Does anyone know why most reject Enoch as the writer of these books?
The book of Enoch was written by a unknown prophet about 167 BC ? The book literally states that it is a parable; or in other word, not Enoch. The book of Enoch was used by the Essenes from about 167 BC, and by Christians from 35 AD to 700 AD. It was the Catholic Church that determined that it should not be used as scripture any longer. It was also the Catholic Church that added verse 9 in the book of Jude. Thats why you see a conflict between the two books. Also, the correct translation is “your leader Michael” NOT “PRINCE”.
Quote (MichaelTheeArchAngel @ Aug. 17 2006,19:56) The reason you dont see the book of Enoch with our bible scripture today, is because secret societies objected to it. Supposidly a spell has been cast to prevent the angels { messengers of God} from fulfilling prophecy. Did you know that the two witnesses to come are “ArchAngels” (Cheif messengers of God). The Two Witnesses are flesh and blood men born in the last days. While they are here on earth they have the authority of 4 wings;but when they enter into the Kingdom of God, power and authority will be added to them, and they will have 6 wings. Wings are symbolic of status. Somtimes Im not sure if I want to visit some churches, because of their Masonic symbols they post in front of the church. The symbols are posted to let members know that there is a Masonic influance over that church. And so, do you think that the spell is working? Will Gods word fail? When Yahshua comes will he still find faith?
How about some kind of comment people! So what if you stick your foot in your mouth; everyone has had foot in mouth disease. At least Ill know that your alive out there.Hi M.
As soon as you start mentioning “secret societies” and a “spell” being cast to stop angels, it may put people off reading the rest.Out of curiosity, which churches do you believe have masonic symbols on them?
M, you just mentioned masonry.
Interestingly, Dinah, in Aug 6 of 2004, in the other enoch thread, mentioned:
Quote Do any of you realize just what a blow this book is to Masonry,
THE BOOK OF ENOCH MAKES MASONRY NO LONGER SECRET,,On what is this thought based? It seems whenever someone wants to discredit something, you throw something at it that no one seems to understand, such as masonry.
Quote (david @ Aug. 18 2006,20:16) M, you just mentioned masonry. Interestingly, Dinah, in Aug 6 of 2004, in the other enoch thread, mentioned:
Quote Do any of you realize just what a blow this book is to Masonry,
THE BOOK OF ENOCH MAKES MASONRY NO LONGER SECRET,,On what is this thought based? It seems whenever someone wants to discredit something, you throw something at it that no one seems to understand, such as masonry.
I presume that most Christians are not aware that secret societies are in most of the churchs. Even in the churchs that object to secret societies. Members are encouraged to join the different churchs, to become members, deacons and pastors; and other heads of church. It helps to weaken Christians, by keeping Christians divided through different doctrines. For example, did you know that every president of the United States has been a member of secret society; and the person who ran as antimasonic in the 1800s was also a mason. I forget what his name was. Christians are in disbelief of many things that I say, and I can't seem to get them to study these things. Any suggestions?
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