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I noticed that you guys have obviously looked into the book of Enoch as well. I was wondering your conclusions on the book. I see that some of you don't think it contains truth, Sammo, I think was the posters name.
My two cents. I believe that the book is without doubt corrupted. It is a patchwork of fractured manuscripts and contains other apocryphal work intertwined within it.
However, that being said, I really question a couple things about those who deny it completely. They must have not fully read it and compared it with the New Testament or they are just not being objectively honest with what they have learned. With all honest and humble sincerity I feel than one must come to one of these two conclusions about the book of Enoch.
1) Either it contains within its pages some truth that the writers of the New Testament were guided by the Holy Spirit to replicate within their writings.
or
2) They have to assume that the New Testament writers “borrowed” from the book of Enoch in a secular sort of way in “creating” Christianity.
Anyone who seriously, honestly, before God does a deep comparitive study of the book of Enoch and the New Testament cannot simply dismiss the book of Enoch. It predates the New Testament. I don't know its age but it is “old”.
Perhaps, it is 100% genuine and passed on through Noah, perhaps it is oral tradition written down, perhaps it is a recreation of an ancient lost scroll…”Take yet again another scroll”, but if you are a Christian it is very very hard to dismiss it. How does it know and mirror Christianity and yet be older than the Christian faith?
Hi mercy,
It is quoted in Jude. That should lead to the conclusion that it is of God in the same way that Jude is surely? I think it is too strong meat for many but it certainly adds more understanding in many areas. If you are anointed with the Spirit then that Spirit will help confirm or deny if it is of God.My thoughts exactly, Nick.
My concern is that to me the evidence is so overwhelming that I cannot explain the attitude of those who repress Enoch.
I have come to only one conclusion possible:
Romans 11:8
as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”Quote (Mercy @ July 26 2006,21:15) I noticed that you guys have obviously looked into the book of Enoch as well. I was wondering your conclusions on the book. I see that some of you don't think it contains truth, Sammo, I think was the posters name. My two cents. I believe that the book is without doubt corrupted. It is a patchwork of fractured manuscripts and contains other apocryphal work intertwined within it.
However, that being said, I really question a couple things about those who deny it completely. They must have not fully read it and compared it with the New Testament or they are just not being objectively honest with what they have learned. With all honest and humble sincerity I feel than one must come to one of these two conclusions about the book of Enoch.
1) Either it contains within its pages some truth that the writers of the New Testament were guided by the Holy Spirit to replicate within their writings.
or
2) They have to assume that the New Testament writers “borrowed” from the book of Enoch in a secular sort of way in “creating” Christianity.
Anyone who seriously, honestly, before God does a deep comparitive study of the book of Enoch and the New Testament cannot simply dismiss the book of Enoch. It predates the New Testament. I don't know its age but it is “old”.
Perhaps, it is 100% genuine and passed on through Noah, perhaps it is oral tradition written down, perhaps it is a recreation of an ancient lost scroll…”Take yet again another scroll”, but if you are a Christian it is very very hard to dismiss it. How does it know and mirror Christianity and yet be older than the Christian faith?
Who mixes truth with lies? Or in this case lies with ? truth?The “book” of Enoch goes against scripture. Again the offspring of the son's of God according to scripture were MEN.
Angels are spirit beings and do not have sex.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.Why would God give angels power to have sex with humans?
Here is a reason why He wouldn't. Because it's not His will.What of the “other” books? Are they not as worthy as Enoch. At least they are “books”. But there are no monsters in the other books.
Enoch is interesting in that a SIFI writer existed in those days
We will just have to disagree.
I firmly think scripture backs my stance.
So far you just back you position by “opinion” on what you think God's will is.
Is evil God's will? Of course not, things happen that are not God's will. It's that simple.
I really don't know too much about this supposed book of Enoch. Let's look at Kenrch's objection for a second.
The Bible, God's Inspired Word:
GENESIS 6:4
“The Neph′i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the MEN of fame.”Could someone provide a direct quote from this book of “Enoch” and what it says about these Nephilim, the offspring of the angels and the daughters of men?
david
I have to keep posting on this because peope don't even know what the Book of Enoch says.
Yes people just read the book and then you will either have to assume one of the following, because it is just that obvious.
1) It is a text used by a first century jewish cult to fabricate and create a new religion called Christianity.
2) It is a text written by someone inspired by Satan.
3) It is a text written by someone inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Lets start with the facts: The book of Enoch has at least been around since the 1st-3rd centuries BC, if not longer. This predates Christ. The book of Enoch describes the events that occured in Genisis 6 as angels marrying daughters of men. In describes the messiah as the son of man and predicts exactly the generation he would arrive in. (dont let this slip by you, it is exactly 70 generations after Enoch; read Lukes geneology in his gospel) It describes how that the messiah will die and be raised from the dead and how the message will be preached unto the gentiles. (I am not kidding!!!) Many fragments were found belonging to the conservative Jewish group known as the essenes within the Dead Sea Scrolls. The early church fathers considered it scripture. (the same people we all seek counsel about the trinity)
Lets break down our 3 options:
1) Lets assume for the moment that everyone reading this is a Christian and I don't need to defend the faith.
2) If satan inspired the book then why did Jude quote it? Maybe Satan knew what Jude would say and wrote it before he said it in order to lead others astray. So does that mean Satan is all knowing? Did he know what scripture was going to say before it was written? Of course not, scripture says:
I Corinthians 2:6-7
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.I Peter 2:10-12
10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.Satan is not all knowing. It is that simple.
3) This leaves that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. This means that Angels did come into the daughters of men.
If you who disagree with the Book of Enoch honestly read it thoroughly and compared all the corralations within it then you would have to believe one of these three scenarios because it is so precise, has fulfilled prophecy, and is quoted and supported by many passages in the standard canon. The book of Enoch was part of the scriptures of the early christians. The forming of the western canon by heretical trinitarians tossed it out.
Read the book and then realize only these 3 options exist. Or at least come back with some good apologetic besides, “I have no Idea what it says but I dont believe it” or “I don't have any scripture to support that the canon is complete, but I think in my opinion that that is the way God would chose to write his letter.” or “I certainly don't trust Constantine and his cronies concerning the Trinity doctrine but I am quite sure they are realiable concerning the forming of the canon.”
choose:
1) It is a text used by a first century jewish cult to fabricate and create a new religion called Christianity.
2) It is a text written by someone inspired by Satan.
3) It is a text written by someone inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 10 2006,07:32) We will just have to disagree. I firmly think scripture backs my stance.
So far you just back you position by “opinion” on what you think God's will is.
Is evil God's will? Of course not, things happen that are not God's will. It's that simple.
Mercy,Give me scripture that says Angels had sex with humans anywhere in the bible. It's just that simple! You have NO scriptural proof. You have writings that calls itself the book of Enoch when there is no book of Enoch in the bible. There are other books in bible that are mentioned but no “book” of Enoch. What will this “false book” prove? Scripturally it proves nothing but actually says the scriptures are not telling the truth. The Word says the offspring of the sons of God and women were MEN. The false book of Enoch says they were monsters that ate even humans.
So what are your conclusions of the false book compared to scripture?
You say that the offspring were gaints. There are giants today on earth does that mean that they are half fallen angels?!? There were giants on earth before the sons of God did there thing. According to the word of God He destroyed ALL FLESH but Noah and his family. Did God destroy all flesh and save monsters? Before Jesus it was all bloodline. Noah was the only one with a pure bloodline from Seth all others were mixed with the decendents from Cain the first murderer. These were the offspring from the sons of God who mixed with the daughters of Cain.Again give me one instance where Angels had sex with women in the Word of God. It's that simple!
They had a movie on ABC family TV network named “Fallen”. It was about the offspring of the fallen angels who had intercourse with humans. It was a good SiFi MOVIE! Pure fairytale much like the false book Enoch. NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF AT ALL. Only pure speculation of the imagination which if you are serching truth and not entertainment is a waste of time. Your time would be better spent studing the true WORD OF GOD.
The study of Enoch is a waste of time that will lead to a dead end. A diversion that will at the very least slow the growth of what God wants you to be.
So did you pick option 2?
Jude
6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.7In a similar way, <———
Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Genesis 6:1
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.Genesis 6:4
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.You are simply stating an opion that the term Sons of God equal men. The hebrew is bene elohim. It is consistently used as the title for angels throughout scripture. I am sure you know this but just by faith believe this one time it is a term used to described Seth's lineage.
Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 10 2006,21:49) So did you pick option 2? Jude
6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.7In a similar way, <———
Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Genesis 6:1
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.Genesis 6:4
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.You are simply stating an opion that the term Sons of God equal men. The hebrew is bene elohim. It is consistently used as the title for angels throughout scripture. I am sure you know this but just by faith believe this one time it is a term used to described Seth's lineage.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. ” And the angels, the children of the heaven”, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'The angels in Enoch were the children of HEAVEN. Not Satan's followers. Now if the angels (in heaven) cannot withstand the temptation of the flesh, not being flesh, being made above we humans, then what chance do we who are made LOWER than the angles HAVE?!?
We are lower than the angles and subject to temptation of the flesh:
Heb 2:6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:When I will become a spirit being I will not have the power to have sex NOR WILL I WANT TOO. Have you ever been in the Power of the Holy Spirit? If you have been then you know that there is NO SEX in heaven. But wait we are talking about “fallen angels” but these are not demons that followed Satan these were regular angels. Why would these angels decide that sex was better than heaven. Man! What chance do we humans have if sex makes angels fall!!! If sex is better than heaven then why would I want to go to heaven? Well I do and am going to heaven. You can stay here and have sex if you want.
Now you choose scripture or a book which according to Jude is not a book of Enoch.
Can we actually be certain that Jude quoted from the book of Enoch?
Jude may have quoted a common source, a reliable tradition handed down from antiquity. Paul evidently did something similar when he named Jannes and Jambres as the otherwise anonymous magicians of Pharaoh’s court who opposed Moses. If the writer of the Book of Enoch had access to an ancient source of this kind, why should we deny it to Jude?
Kenrch, above you state that:
Quote Again the offspring of the son's of God according to scripture were MEN.
Where exactly does the book of Enoch contradict this?
The Bible says that the offspring of the Son's of God with the daughters of men were Nephilim. I believe it's a word that has to do with “falling down.” Some confuse and contend that these Nephilim were fallen angels. But the Nephilim were the offspring of the Son's of God and the daughters of men. But we are told that they were the men of fame, the mighty ones of old. And we are also told that the world became very wicked in those days, so wicked that God destroyed it. I believe those Nephilim were rather large wicked bullies, offspring of angels and women who caused others to fall down.
If they were just humans, then why were they called Nephilim? Why does it make a point of saying that “son's of God” or in your opinion, “men” decided to have relations with women. Hadn't that been going on for some time already?Does the book of enoch actually contradict the Bible in this area? In the past, I have had trouble with ones over this and I think it was because Enoch presented a different story than the Bible. But I don't exactly remember how. Can we have an enlargement on what it says with regard to this?
Quote (david @ Aug. 11 2006,03:02) Can we actually be certain that Jude quoted from the book of Enoch? Jude may have quoted a common source, a reliable tradition handed down from antiquity. Paul evidently did something similar when he named Jannes and Jambres as the otherwise anonymous magicians of Pharaoh’s court who opposed Moses. If the writer of the Book of Enoch had access to an ancient source of this kind, why should we deny it to Jude?
Kenrch, above you state that:
Quote Again the offspring of the son's of God according to scripture were MEN.
Where exactly does the book of Enoch contradict this?
The Bible says that the offspring of the Son's of God with the daughters of men were Nephilim. I believe it's a word that has to do with “falling down.” Some confuse and contend that these Nephilim were fallen angels. But the Nephilim were the offspring of the Son's of God and the daughters of men. But we are told that they were the men of fame, the mighty ones of old. And we are also told that the world became very wicked in those days, so wicked that God destroyed it. I believe those Nephilim were rather large wicked bullies, offspring of angels and women who caused others to fall down.
If they were just humans, then why were they called Nephilim? Why does it make a point of saying that “son's of God” or in your opinion, “men” decided to have relations with women. Hadn't that been going on for some time already?Does the book of enoch actually contradict the Bible in this area? In the past, I have had trouble with ones over this and I think it was because Enoch presented a different story than the Bible. But I don't exactly remember how. Can we have an enlargement on what it says with regard to this?
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. ” And the angels, the children of the heaven”, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'The angels in Enoch were the children of HEAVEN. Not Satan's followers. Now if the angels (in heaven) cannot withstand the temptation of the flesh, not being flesh, being made above we humans, then what chance do we who are made LOWER than the angles HAVE?!?
We are lower than the angles and subject to temptation of the flesh:
Heb 2:6 But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:Now you choose scripture or a book which according to Jude is not a book of Enoch.
I don't know David. I suppose IF angelic beings had sex with humans then they would not be whole human? Wouldn't you?
I don't know that I can believe anything out of a book that isn't a book at all.
How could you being a Spirit being have sex. Scriptures says you cannot.
EVEN IF YOU COULD:
Would you give up heaven to have sex with a LOWER being?I have given rebuttals to all your points before on this forum.
I have no desire to continue to banter back and forth.I would just leave it with reminding you that we are to test the spirits. You havent even read the book, because, you consider it a waste of time. Maybe, that is what you consider testing. I call it dismissal. You can't test what you don't even consider.
Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 11 2006,06:18) I have given rebuttals to all your points before on this forum.
I have no desire to continue to banter back and forth.I would just leave it with reminding you that we are to test the spirits. You havent even read the book, because, you consider it a waste of time. Maybe, that is what you consider testing. I call it dismissal. You can't test what you don't even consider.
Mercy,Scripture says angels can't have sex (Matt. 22:30).
Scripture says that humans are lower than angels (Heb. 2:6-7).Scripture says that the sons of God were human:
Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh. Then began men to call upon the name of Jehovah.
Luk 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.“Jesus the Son of God a descedants of Seth”. If the Son of God a descedant of Seth then Seth and his descedants
were sons of God the same sons that went into the daughters of men the descendants of Cain. Good mixed with evil.The offspring of the “mix” were humans who did not call on Jehovah's name.
2Co 6:15 Can Christ agree with the devil? Can a believer share life with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 Can God's temple contain false gods? Clearly, we are the temple of the living God. As God said, “I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.”1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals.
Gen 6:2 The sons of God saw that the daughters of “other humans” were beautiful. So they married any woman they chose. GW
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not struggle with humans forever, because “they are flesh and blood.” They will live 120 years.” GW
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim [giants] were on the earth in those days, “as well as later,” when the” sons of God slept with the daughters of “other humans” and had children by them. These children were famous long ago. GWThe giants were on earth before the sons of God, before Seth's descendants started calling on the name of Jehovah (Gen. 4:26); as well as after, Seth's descendants (God's sons) had intercourse with the descendants of Cain.
The giants were on the earth BEFORE and after the fall of the sons of God (Seth's descendants). The giants were not the result of the “MIX”.
I'll stick with scripture rather than some writing that calls itself a “BOOK” that scripture does not recognize as a book. Scripture recognizes “other Books” BUT not the “BOOK” of Enoch. So according to the WORD OF GOD there is no book of Enoch.
The simple truth is that scripture does not say anything about angelic spiritual beings having intercourse with a lower being of flesh. It's just not there! You are taking another writing and injecting it in the word of God. I maintain that if almighty God wanted us to have the WRITINGS (NOT A BOOK) of Enoch then it would be in His letter. If you need another book to understand scripture, Satan has accommondated people with denominations that have an additional book(s).
The word “Nephilim” means the fallen ones. The word of God says that man is made in Gods Image. We are also called the sons of God, and that is why we call Him Father. The word “angel” is a interpretation for the words “messenger of God”. A man can also be a / Messenger of God.= Angel. Also wings on angels are only seen in visions and are symbolic of status. The bible is full of parables and so a person must be careful not to imagine vain things. Some of my relatives are swedish and are over 7 feet tall. Was this info any help to you ?
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 11 2006,14:56) Mercy,Aug. wrote:I maintain that if almighty God wanted us to have the WRITINGS (NOT A BOOK) of Enoch then it would be in His letter. If you need another book to understand scripture, Satan has accommondated people with denominations that have an additional book(s).
You must not be aware that the bible is made up from different “books”. Perhaps you should do a study on how the bible was made or came about.Hi Mike,
You say
“A man can also be a / Messenger of God.= Angel.”
So Men are angels?
What about donkey messengers of God -are they angels too??Quote (MichaelTheeArchAngel @ Aug. 11 2006,18:35) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 11 2006,14:56) Mercy,Aug. wrote:I maintain that if almighty God wanted us to have the WRITINGS (NOT A BOOK) of Enoch then it would be in His letter. If you need another book to understand scripture, Satan has accommondated people with denominations that have an additional book(s).
You must not be aware that the bible is made up from different “books”. Perhaps you should do a study on how the bible was made or came about.
H5303
נפל נפיל
nephîyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: – giant.
Where are the “fallen ones?”OH! That's why the names are “book of Acts” ETC
Please Mike if you would give me scripture where the book of Enoch is mentioned in the bible.The bible is complete from beginning to end. As I said if you need another book in addition to the Word of God then Satan has provided certain denominations who have their own books. Perhaps you should look into them.
As for me and my house we will stand on the true word of God.
How does the book of Enoch describe Jesus so precisely?
Why does the book of Enoch have fulfilled prophecy?
Why does Jude quote it?
Why is the new testament filled with terminology, parables,quotes, references and corralations to the book of Enoch?
Why did the pre-nicean church consider it scripture?
Why does the view I am proposing fit into the mosaic of scripture like a puzzel piece, yet in order to fit in your view it requires statements like, “Well, I know it says that but what it really means is [insert biased presupposition]”.
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