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Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 15 2008,12:50) Can I please get some comments on these thoughts yall: Let's all start and agree with the premise that Divinity is Big. Quite probably beyond our ability to grasp its vastness. Bigger than the Earth, even!
Okay. Now look out your window and describe what you see. Did you just describe every feature of our planet, or just a small part that you have seen and are familiar with?
If you can't describe all of our little planet, how can you expect to describe all of Divinity?
Just as I can look outside and say “The Earth is a muddy swamp like my backyard is after the rain” you might say “The Earth is a dry hot arid place” because you've had a year of drought.
A Religion is basically like looking out your window and describing Divinity as you see it. It is impossible for you to describe it in its entirety as you haven't seen it in its entirety.
As a result each religion is expressing the portion of Divinity that the people who created it could see.
Just because you see one thing doesn't mean that somebody else can't see a different aspect of Divinity and be just as correct as you are. Just like I see mud outside my window and you see a cracked river bed. We're both right. It's just that we're looking at something so big that we each see a different part of it.
Just because you don't see the same thing I do doesn't mean that I'm wrong. We can both be right if we're seeing different things.
Hi DK,You are spot on.
I think that all religions are an attempt to describe the same God through different eyes. Each religion seems to know that God is there, but depend on the description of one man who reveals that God to them.The bible says that God spoke to Moses. The Koran said that God spoke to Mohammed. Joseph Smith said that God spoke to him. Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, said that God spoke to him. How do we know that God spoke to any one of them, or perhaps to all of them?
The simple fact is that God has never been seen by man and can not be described or understood by man. So all men see God as extensions of themselves, and attempt to describe Him in that way.
Some of us, because of where we were born believe Moses.
Other people, for the same reason, believe Mohammed, etc.etc. Very few people will change their taught beliefs unless true study, not blind belief, brings them to a new realization.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 15 2008,23:09) Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 15 2008,12:50) Can I please get some comments on these thoughts yall: Let's all start and agree with the premise that Divinity is Big. Quite probably beyond our ability to grasp its vastness. Bigger than the Earth, even!
Okay. Now look out your window and describe what you see. Did you just describe every feature of our planet, or just a small part that you have seen and are familiar with?
If you can't describe all of our little planet, how can you expect to describe all of Divinity?
Just as I can look outside and say “The Earth is a muddy swamp like my backyard is after the rain” you might say “The Earth is a dry hot arid place” because you've had a year of drought.
A Religion is basically like looking out your window and describing Divinity as you see it. It is impossible for you to describe it in its entirety as you haven't seen it in its entirety.
As a result each religion is expressing the portion of Divinity that the people who created it could see.
Just because you see one thing doesn't mean that somebody else can't see a different aspect of Divinity and be just as correct as you are. Just like I see mud outside my window and you see a cracked river bed. We're both right. It's just that we're looking at something so big that we each see a different part of it.
Just because you don't see the same thing I do doesn't mean that I'm wrong. We can both be right if we're seeing different things.
Hi DK,You are spot on.
I think that all religions are an attempt to describe the same God through different eyes. Each religion seems to know that God is there, but depend on the description of one man who reveals that God to them.The bible says that God spoke to Moses. The Koran said that God spoke to Mohammed. Joseph Smith said that God spoke to him. Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, said that God spoke to him. How do we know that God spoke to any one of them, or perhaps to all of them?
The simple fact is that God has never been seen by man and can not be described or understood by man. So all men see God as extensions of themselves, and attempt to describe Him in that way.
Some of us, because of where we were born believe Moses.
Other people, for the same reason, believe Mohammed, etc.etc. Very few people will change their taught beliefs unless true study, not blind belief, brings them to a new realization.Tim
touche' my dear friend
Exactly..my thoughts…
How can someone say that they have found the ONLY true God in any particular faith…if they have never examined the veracity of the claims of OTHER faiths that say..THEY have “found” GOD?
Moving on to another point…how can we believe in a book that has no authors…in other words..we don't know who wrote the bible….take for example the beloved GOSPELS of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John….
Try this simple experiment….
Imagine the Gospels had NO NAMES….now begin reading and see if you can deduce who the author of each book is….
Simply put…whose to say these stories are not just HERESAY..and therefore have been a victim of the “telephone game”
Hi DK,
Yes there was one author.2Peter 1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
trust Him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,04:36) Hi DK,
Yes there was one author.2Peter 1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
trust Him.
can you prove it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,04:45) Hi DK,
Does the bible need proof?
Does God need proof?
Hey Brother Nick,God I believe needs no proof….
The bible on the other hand…I think needs some evidence…
Again…I know the bible is supposedly “god breathed”…but where is the evidence?
Quoting from the book making the claims is not sufficient….
Again..I ask…How do you know you are right about who GOD is…and everyone who disagrees is wrong?
Quoting from the bible is not sufficient…because the bible is making the claims….what non-biblical evidence do you have to substantiate your claims brother Nick?
Hi DK,
The evidence is slowly implanted in your heart and mind.
Take time as it is us that needs transforming .Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,05:22) Hi DK,
The evidence is slowly implanted in your heart and mind.
Take time as it is us that needs transforming .
Nick,No offense…but that translates to me as, “I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER EVIDENCE.”
The question I pose to everyone here is the same…
PROVE THE BIBLE IS “GOD's word” by using something other than the bible…
example…how about using the historocity of the bible….to back up the supposed prophetic portions…
Hi DK,
You want instant faith?
We walk by faith and not by sight.
Heb11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.DK and other fellow doubters:
I feel that I am about to come full circle. I've been the doubting road, I've asked the questions (that have no answers). I've read the other books, I've explored the other religions.
Here's the thing, where else can we turn? Who else can we cling to? What else do we know or have become convinced of? If not Jesus; if not God our Creator? The bible, in my opinion, was written by man. Nothing is or ever was perfect except for Jesus. We cannot have perfection until that Day. But we have hope, and we have faith (if we don't smother it with doubt).
Everyone has to walk their own circle. I called my circle the “Trek for truth”. What did I find at the end of my trek? I can tell you now: Nothing new; nothing new under the sun. No new revelation, new religion, or new God was found.
I still don't trust the bible. But I trust God, and I trust my salvation is in his Son who died for me and was raised to life! This is the culture message that I have been given. This is my way to God; I'm taking it. I want God, and he knows it. If I'm wrong to do the things I do in honor of him (including church, bible reading, christmas celebrating and so on), then I'm sure he will reveal it to me – maybe not even until that Day will we know what is acceptable, and what he would have rather we let go of? Don't sweat it, just press on towards the goal.
One thing that is for certain, today is the day of salvation! If you hear his voice, open up your heart to him and let him in! Worry about what church to attend, and which version of the bible to read later. Make a solid decision in your heart to follow him…..to follow.
Love to all who search,
MandyMandy! Since it was man that translated the Bible it is some what expected to have some errors. It has been a long time also. But as a whole I trust in the Word of God which I can find in the Bible. Where else would I go? The Korean? Whatever you read I find it interesting that you made the circle around and are back. I know that I am save under the Blood of Christ and that is were I will stay until Jesus comes and claims me. What a day that will be. Meeting all my past friends and those like you that I never met. It will not be long now.
Peace and Love IreneHi DK,
If I were to read the Gospels with no indications of authorship I doubt that it would change my belief in them one way or another. For a multitude of reasons I doubt that they were written by the authors for whom they are named any way.
In some ways it appears as though some of what is in the gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John have been copied from one another . But in other ways they differ so much as to be talking about completely different subjects.
Let me give you just one example. If I were to ask, according to the bible, what must you do in order to get in to heaven.
That should be a subject of such importance as to be clearly stated in each of the Gospels, wouldn’t you think. Well if you just read John it is pretty clear.Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That sounds clear enough. If you believe in the only begotten son of God you will have everlasting life.
But wait, according to Luke you must also love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor before you can have eternal life.
Luke 10:25-27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
But wait again, then Luke says that you must first sell everything that you own.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Now Jesus said that you must sell everything that you have and then come follow Him. Be His disciple. But to be His disciple your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees. The Pharisees obeyed all 613 laws of the OT, including sacrifices and stoning all sorts of people to death. Are you willing to do that?
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You must also remember to honor your father and mother, and not steal or murder, or commit false testimony.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.But you also, according to Luke have to hate your father and mother in order to get be a disciple of Jesus and thus get eternal life.
Luke 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.In addition to all of this according to John you have to eat the flesh of Jesus and drink His blood before you can get eternal life. And Mathew :18 says we must become like little children before we can get eternal life. And of course John says that we must be born again, and born of the water and the spirit before we can get eternal life.
The writers of the Gospels just seemed to make up new requirements for eternal life as they went along. We went from Johns’ simple acknowledgement of, and belief in Jesus as being the requirement, to a multitude of other requirements that are impossible for any person to meet.
What do you think?
TimLet me list those without the biblical references just to be easier to read.
1.Believe in Jesus.
2.Love God
3.Love your neighbor.
4.Do not murder.
5.Do not steal.
6.Do not give false witness.
7.Honor your father and mother.
8.Sell everything that you own.
9.Hate your mother and father.
10.Hate your wife.
11.Hate your children.
12.Hate your brothers.
13.Hate your sisters.
14.Hate life itself.
15.Give up everything. Jesus mentioned this twice so it must be very important for you to get rid of everything that you have.
16.Eat the flesh of Jesus.
17.Drink His blood.
18.Become like little children.
19.Be born again.
20.Be born of water.
21.Be born of the spirit.
22.Be more righteous than the Pharisees.Tim
Tim,
I've also made such a list (mine's longer though
).
I believe you have sufficiently shown that man has had his hand in the writing of the bible, imo.However that is why God has written his laws on our heart.
When you look to your heart, do you feel compelled to sell every possession you own, for instance? I don't.
Do you feel compelled to hate your wife, brothers, and sister's? No, of course not.I think the plan is simple. It sure started out simple, didn't it?
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given……Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,06:14) DK and other fellow doubters: I feel that I am about to come full circle. I've been the doubting road, I've asked the questions (that have no answers). I've read the other books, I've explored the other religions.
Here's the thing, where else can we turn? Who else can we cling to? What else do we know or have become convinced of? If not Jesus; if not God our Creator? The bible, in my opinion, was written by man. Nothing is or ever was perfect except for Jesus. We cannot have perfection until that Day. But we have hope, and we have faith (if we don't smother it with doubt).
Everyone has to walk their own circle. I called my circle the “Trek for truth”. What did I find at the end of my trek? I can tell you now: Nothing new; nothing new under the sun. No new revelation, new religion, or new God was found.
I still don't trust the bible. But I trust God, and I trust my salvation is in his Son who died for me and was raised to life! This is the culture message that I have been given. This is my way to God; I'm taking it. I want God, and he knows it. If I'm wrong to do the things I do in honor of him (including church, bible reading, christmas celebrating and so on), then I'm sure he will reveal it to me – maybe not even until that Day will we know what is acceptable, and what he would have rather we let go of? Don't sweat it, just press on towards the goal.
One thing that is for certain, today is the day of salvation! If you hear his voice, open up your heart to him and let him in! Worry about what church to attend, and which version of the bible to read later. Make a solid decision in your heart to follow him…..to follow.
Love to all who search,
Mandy I don't have a problem with you walking by the words of the bible…I just think you have to make sure you seperate what you think GOD's words are and conversely what you think are mens…
This question I pose to all who have “come full circle” in their search….
In your search, I'm sure you inquired of people who believe just as strongly in thier particular faith as do you….did you ever delve into what made THOSE particular people believe
JUST AS STRONGLY in their faith as you do christianity?And if you did…what did you discover?
What did that tell you about GOD and faith?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,07:30) However that is why God has written his laws on our heart.
Does god write only on the hearts of Christians?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,05:43) Hi DK,
You want instant faith?
We walk by faith and not by sight.
Heb11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith?Faith in GOD is not the issue…my issue is faith in the GOD of the BIBLE
Hi DK,
Your choice.
You may choose to throw away the map but we will need it later.John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,08:02) Hi DK,
Your choice.
You may choose to throw away the map but we will need it later.John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You obviously believe these words…….why?
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