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Regarding Babylon: “She will never be inhabited.” (Is 13:19,20)
That's a bold statement. To predict permanent desolation for a sprawling city occupying a strategic location!
You would normally expect a city would be rebuilt if ruined. Isaiah's words eventually came true. Today, the site of ancient Babylon “is flat, hot, deserted and dusty,” reports Smithsonian Magazine.The equivelent would be predicting the exact manner in which a modern city, such as London, would be destoryed 200 years from now and then emphatically stating that it would never again be inhabited!
Of course, if the Bible made such predictions in large numbers and some came true and some didn't, it would just be a matter of letting people see the positive and ignoring the negative. But the Bible does not make such predictions about other cities.
Why do we never comment on such clear cut things, but only focus on the controversial things?
Quote (david @ Dec. 12 2007,16:51) Yes, stu can point to an instant of time or a bone or muscle and say that it is evidence of evolution, but the word evolution itself means “slow change.” When I look at my leg, I see no change, obviously.
So you are one of the 9% who do not have a plantaris muscle, then? How do you explain the existence of this pretty much useless muscle in some people but not all?Stuart
Hi Nick
Quote Does immunisation confer some new ability to the human body?
No it makes use of a current ability.It gives the body a new ability to fight pathogens, but as you say it is based on a capacity it has to do this already.
Quote The evidence may point in certain directions for devotees of Darwin's theory but not all. Sickle cell disease does offer certain advantages in resistance to certain other diseases but that would not seem to be a positive thing for the race. 50% of all human deaths have been caused by malaria. That is a significant selection pressure. Sickle cell anaemia is a mutation that by chance gives protection even though there is a significant health cost. Creationists must find this pretty inexplicable.
Quote I admire faith.
I admire the honest search for truth.I think the latter is incompatible with the former.
Quote Good science is based on proven established facts. That is not how science works at all.
Quote But this so called science is bad science as it has no proven facts.
Instead presumption and inference is offered as a basis for knowledge.
Presumption is an embarrassingly bad basis for this poor example of science.
Evolution teaching gives science a bad name.
Sad for those who are honest.Evolution is as good a fact as the fact of your attraction to earth by gravity.
Give me one fact that disproves evolution by natural selection.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2007,21:31) Quote (david @ Dec. 12 2007,16:51) Yes, stu can point to an instant of time or a bone or muscle and say that it is evidence of evolution, but the word evolution itself means “slow change.” When I look at my leg, I see no change, obviously.
So you are one of the 9% who do not have a plantaris muscle, then? How do you explain the existence of this pretty much useless muscle in some people but not all?Stuart
Hi Stu,
You may have some amazing magic insight but the presence or absence of a vestigial muscle is not proof of any man's theory.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,05:03) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2007,21:31) Quote (david @ Dec. 12 2007,16:51) Yes, stu can point to an instant of time or a bone or muscle and say that it is evidence of evolution, but the word evolution itself means “slow change.” When I look at my leg, I see no change, obviously.
So you are one of the 9% who do not have a plantaris muscle, then? How do you explain the existence of this pretty much useless muscle in some people but not all?Stuart
Hi Stu,
You may have some amazing magic insight but the presence or absence of a vestigial muscle is not proof of any man's theory.
As I have been required to say too many times to those who simply don't understand the concept, or refuse to, there is no such thing as proof in science. But let's use the sense of the word proof as used here often: yes, it is undeniable proof that we have a common ancestor with other great apes.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2007,21:42) Hi Nick Quote Does immunisation confer some new ability to the human body?
No it makes use of a current ability.It gives the body a new ability to fight pathogens, but as you say it is based on a capacity it has to do this already.
Quote The evidence may point in certain directions for devotees of Darwin's theory but not all. Sickle cell disease does offer certain advantages in resistance to certain other diseases but that would not seem to be a positive thing for the race. 50% of all human deaths have been caused by malaria. That is a significant selection pressure. Sickle cell anaemia is a mutation that by chance gives protection even though there is a significant health cost. Creationists must find this pretty inexplicable.
Quote I admire faith.
I admire the honest search for truth.I think the latter is incompatible with the former.
Quote Good science is based on proven established facts. That is not how science works at all.
Quote But this so called science is bad science as it has no proven facts.
Instead presumption and inference is offered as a basis for knowledge.
Presumption is an embarrassingly bad basis for this poor example of science.
Evolution teaching gives science a bad name.
Sad for those who are honest.Evolution is as good a fact as the fact of your attraction to earth by gravity.
Give me one fact that disproves evolution by natural selection.Stuart
Hi Stu,
So we are to disprove
what
you cannot prove?umm
Why should we dabble with you fantasies because you have great faith in them?
Do you think it inevitable that sickle cell anaemia, with all it's disadvantages,will be the fate of all mankind because of your unscientific evolution theory?
This goes against your faith in a constant improving power that somehow exists in nature.
We will await events.
Hi,
The bible is a precious gift of God that reveals His nature and plan for those who respect it, seek it's answers diligently and obey it.
To those who do not fear God it is useless babble.
That was always the test of God.Hi Stu,
We are the people of the Word.
We are those who believe that what is written through the Old and New Testaments comprise a complete message from God.
We have found that obedience to it brings peace and hope and great blessings in our lives.
Dare to believe.
What can you lose?Hi Nick
Quote So we are to disprove what you cannot prove? Yes. That is exactly how science works. There is no proof for a theory, but there can be disproof. It is called falsifiability. For example, evolution is falsifiable. If we found bunny rabbit fossils in the oldest (precambrian) rocks, evolution would be utterly disproved. This is also why creationism is not a science. It is not falsifiable.
Quote Why should we dabble with you fantasies because you have great faith in them? Pot. Calling. Kettle. Black. You must know the rest.
Quote Do you think it inevitable that sickle cell anaemia, with all it's disadvantages,will be the fate of all mankind because of your unscientific evolution theory? Why do you have to make one interesting mutation into the ‘fate of all mankind’? This is not an absolutist biblical fable, we are seeking the best model for what we observe.
Quote This goes against your faith in a constant improving power that somehow exists in nature. Replace the word ‘improving’ with ‘changing’ and ‘somehow’ with ‘obviously’ and I might just be able to recognise this description. The ‘faith’ part is wrong, for reasons I have given over and over again.
Quote The bible is a precious gift of God that reveals His nature and plan for those who respect it, seek it's answers diligently and obey it. To those who do not fear God it is useless babble. Yes it is pretty much useless babble because it does not reflect the nature of humankind and is factually incorrect in so many ways. If the deity described therin did exist, it should not be feared, but should be tried for multiple homicide. I don’t think god is to be feared, I think some of his followers should be.
Quote We are the people of the Word.
We are those who believe that what is written through the Old and New Testaments comprise a complete message from God. We have found that obedience to it brings peace and hope and great blessings in our lives. Dare to believe. What can you lose?My faculty for critical thinking, evidently. Again, when reading this last paragraph I get for some reason a mental image of the Hammer Horror film the Brides of Dracula.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You say
“Yes. That is exactly how science works. There is no proof for a theory, but there can be disproof. It is called falsifiability. For example, evolution is falsifiable. If we found bunny rabbit fossils in the oldest (precambrian) rocks, evolution would be utterly disproved.”Right.
So no foundations at all?
No facts but only straw men?We have the eternal light of truth shining from God through the scriptures.
Hi Nick
Quote In what way is the bible incorrect? You cannot see all kingdoms from a high mountain.
Quote Should we rather ask you about truth? We should be wary of those who claim to know all truth, and we should be especially wary of those who claim they have a Special Friend who knows all the truth, with whom they communicate.
Stu: Yes. That is exactly how science works. There is no proof for a theory, but there can be disproof. It is called falsifiability. For example, evolution is falsifiable. If we found bunny rabbit fossils in the oldest (precambrian) rocks, evolution would be utterly disproved.”
Quote Right .So no foundations at all? No facts but only straw men? Do you actually know what a straw man is Nick? Please read the facile anti-evolution rant on the portal pages to this site for a whole truckload of straw men.
Evolution is a fact explained by natural selection, which you have failed to disprove, even though it is very falsifiable. You have no foundations yourself, unless in the meantime you have come up with a properly predictive and falsifiable Theory of Divine Creation.
Quote We have the eternal light of truth shining from God through the scriptures. See warning above.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You say
“You cannot see all kingdoms from a high mountain. “Lk 3
” 5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours.”It says a high place, but how high?
Do you think that it was with his human eyes that Christ had to be shown these things?
It says he was shown in an instant which adds another dimension to simple human vision.He sees with the spiritual vision of the Spirit just as he saw that the woman of Jn4 had had several husbands but the one she was with now was not her husband.
It is interesting that Christ did not argue with Satan that the kingdoms of the world belonged to him and they had been given to him, the one called the god and prince of this world, who controls all not in Christ.
Hi Nick
Stu (paraphrasing the Judeo-christin book of mythology): “You cannot see all kingdoms from a high mountain. “
Quote Lk 3 ” 5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours.” Quote It says a high place, but how high?
Do you think that it was with his human eyes that Christ had to be shown these things?
It says he was shown in an instant which adds another dimension to simple human vision.
He sees with the spiritual vision of the Spirit just as he saw that the woman of Jn4 had had several husbands but the one she was with now was not her husband.
Does it matter how high? You still could not see the Kingdom of Tonga even from a satellite in geostationary orbit over the Middle East. How long is a day in Genesis? How long is an instant, therefore? I think Jesus (if he existed, and if satan existed, and if they were both so committed to what satan had to tell Jesus that they would climb to a high place together) used his human eyes because he was a human being. He was flesh, right? How does spiritual vision work, anyway? Is this another special pleading for magic?Quote It is interesting that Christ did not argue with Satan that the kingdoms of the world belonged to him and they had been given to him, the one called the god and prince of this world, who controls all not in Christ.
So thinks those who ‘are in Christ’. How do you know it is not you controlled by a demon force, and all your perceptions are clouded by that inspiriation? That’s exactly how it seems to me when creationists lie, or priests tell a child that their ‘unsaved’ friend killed in an accident is going to hell, or a fundamentalist bombs an abortion clinic.Stuart
Hi Stu,
Satan took him to a high place
and there are higher places than earth
accessible by beings who visit with God[Jb 1-2]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,20:02) Hi Stu,
Satan took him to a high place
and there are higher places than earth
accessible by beings who visit with God[Jb 1-2]
You are saying that the world is flat, which I suppose is at least consistent with it being a circle with four corners…Stuart
Hi Stu,
So reliant on human eyes.
You really need to be reborn of the Spirit
and to begin to see what is invisible to puny men.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,07:19) Hi Stu,
So reliant on human eyes.
You really need to be reborn of the Spirit
and to begin to see what is invisible to puny men.
So you have no answer to that one, either.Stuart
Hi Stu,
Did you think we had all the answers?
You do not so why would you expect it of us?
We do not have all the answers but are connected beyond your view of reality with the source of eternal life.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,19:32) Hi Stu,
Did you think we had all the answers?
You do not so why would you expect it of us?
We do not have all the answers but are connected beyond your view of reality with the source of eternal life.
Hi NickQuote Did you think we had all the answers?
Your book says you can see all the kingdoms from a high point. The explanations for this ludicrous claim are equally ludicrous. I don’t think christians have any special answers, it is all bluster.Quote You do not so why would you expect it of us?
But I admit it, and I do not claim to have an Invisible Friend who does know everything.Quote We do not have all the answers but are connected beyond your view of reality with the source of eternal life.
I think you are not. I don’t think there is anything particularly special about you that is not accessible for those who do not share your convictions. I call your bluff. Christianity is all hot air, smoke and mirrors and the motivations are varied but include acquiring political power or other influence, acquiring money, fending off some of the crueler or less just aspects of human life, wanting not to grow up and hence replacing parents with a god; the list is a long one.I relate to you Christopher Hitchens’ challenge to state a moral act that could only be performed by a believer, and I add the challenge of stating one piece of knowledge that has unquestionably benefited humans in all cultures and traditions, which was gained only through divine revelation.
Stuart
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