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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2007,12:03) Hi Tow,
If you do not know and love Paul
you do not know and love Christ.” Love one another as I have loved you”
Well duh. I don't believe in the mythological Jesus of the GT. That Jewish teacher was mixed with many pagan mythologies and given a Jewish heritage. That about says it all. If Jesus did exist, he was very unlike what you find written in the GT. If he was indeed like that, then it is sad indeed. No true G-d fearing Jew would say and do the things attributed to Jesus in the GT.Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 08 2007,23:46) I sometimes wish that I could read the bible with the blind belief that Nick has that every word is the inspired
word of God. But I can not.The bible is a compilation of stories representing multiple points of view. Christian theology is supposed to
be based on the bible, but in actual practice it is based on selective quotations. This makes it necessary to selectively
disregard other quotations. This explains why there are hundreds of denominations and divisions in the church.The bible is not consistent, and this leads to inconsistent selection and differencees of opinion concerning which
quotation should be adhered to and which should be disregarded. My problem is that I believe in God, and I believe that the bible
tells us about Him. But even the bible tells us to not believe everything that is written, because the scribes lied.
The bible even tells us that a lot of what Moses claimed that God commanded was a lie.
So how do I know what to believe?Tim:(
Timothy that all depends what Bible you are reading! My Husband and I have found out that the NEw International Translation of the Bible has a lot of error in it. So we don't use it. If you go to the Old James King Translation or even the New James King you seldom will find it. I belief that in the end times(which I belief we are) Satan is going to do anything even to deceive the elect. So we need to watch out for all.
God Bless you and keep you in Hism LovePeace and Love Mrs.
The idea of rejecting what is in the law books of Moses is also found in the psalms.
“I shall take no young bull out of your house Nor male goats out of your folds. For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird of the mountains, And everything that moves in the field is Mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, For the world is Mine, and all it contains. Shall I eat the flesh of bulls Or drink the blood of male goats?” Psalm 50 verse 9“Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.” Psalm verse 6
And in the prophet Micah we learn that God does not want all of those sacrifices, all he wants is for us to do justice, to love kindness and walk humbly with Him.
“With what shall I come before YAHWEH, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will YAHWEH be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does YAHWEH require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” Micah Chapter 6 verse 6[/QUOTE]Is YHVH as bloodthirsty as the Tanakh puts Him out to be? I don't believe so. I believe it was men who wanted to justify what they did in the name of YHVH. People have been trying to justify evil in the name of G-d since the dawn of man. If people would just realize that they might be able to actually believe in G-
Quote I agree with you there. But then you are saying that the bible is not the innerant word of God aren't you?
The scribes in Jer 8:8 are much like the same in Mat 5:20. They are NOT the ones who copied scripture. Why would a person who merely copies text be called 'righteous'? No, scribes were teachers. So what you see in Jer 8:8 is a rebuke against false teachers who know the word of YHVH but teach something different to the people
Quote Jeremiah clearly says that it is the lying pen of the scribes. Sounds like someone who is copying, or writing something to me.
And why would you quote Matthew when you believe nothing that he said?As shown though it was the manner, not the actual practices. Note that YHVH used 'your' quite often. They were no longer YHVH's way, they were being done in the way of man.
Quote No, I am pretty sure that it was the practice that was an abomination to God.
No, you just need to understand the passages better and investigate deeper. I think you know context. Please reread these passages in their true context and you will come to understand.
Actually, I think that I have. But I will try again. I am certainly open to new enlightenment.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 09 2007,07:20) I am certainly open to new enlightenment. Tim
It is refreshing to see a believer here honestly acknowledging and trying to untangle the inconsistencies in the bible instread of just papering over the cracks with apologia.I would guess you wold be comfortable with the scholarly conclusion that Moses's writing was penned by at least 5 different people. Pehaps there are academic tools available for deciding which parts are closest to what they claim to be.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 09 2007,08:15) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 09 2007,07:20) I am certainly open to new enlightenment. Tim
It is refreshing to see a believer here honestly acknowledging and trying to untangle the inconsistencies in the bible instread of just papering over the cracks with apologia.I would guess you wold be comfortable with the scholarly conclusion that Moses's writing was penned by at least 5 different people. Pehaps there are academic tools available for deciding which parts are closest to what they claim to be.
Stuart
Hi Stu,I am comfortable with that. Merely reading Genesis clearly shows at least two different writing styles and beliefs.
Plus Moses always refers to himself in the second person as if someone else is writing about him.If Moses wrote the entire first five books of the bible, he was a pretty confused person.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 08 2007,14:20) The idea of rejecting what is in the law books of Moses is also found in the psalms.
“I shall take no young bull out of your house Nor male goats out of your folds. For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird of the mountains, And everything that moves in the field is Mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, For the world is Mine, and all it contains. Shall I eat the flesh of bulls Or drink the blood of male goats?” Psalm 50 verse 9Again this shows what the heart of forgiveness and atonement it about. It is not the sacrifice that actually atones but the action behind it. Its the recognition that you have indeed sinned but without true repentance, the sacrifice is useless.
There are also some other elements of Ps 50 that you must look at.
Psa 50:8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
To start, G-d is not rebuking His people for sacrificing. He is rebuking them for not knowing why they are sacrificing.
===================================
Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
Psa 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
===================================G-d here is saying all of creation is His so the sacrifice is not something that is not already His for the taking. And the sacrifices are not brought to Him because He is hungry! But this verse sums up what G-d truly wants
===================================
Psa 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
Psa 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
===================================Thus it is the repentant heart behind the sacrifice that YHVH requires.
This brings up another very serious matter you must be willing to consider. For Jesus to have been an adequate atonement sacrifice, are these verses, and other passages similar to them, not telling you that atonement and forgiveness comes from the sinful person recognizing their sin and repenting as they bring the sacrifice? There was none of that when Jesus was crucified. He was never brought by anyone as their sacrifice.
Quote “Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.” Psalm verse 6 Again, its not about the actual sacrifice, it is about the heart behind it. This verse says much of the same
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
I fear I must point out once more: if sacrifice is not the true part of atonement, what is to come from Jesus' death? Does this fact not indeed crumble the very theology that Christianity depends on? Christian 'salvation' all depends on the death and resurrection of Jesus yet if it is not the sacrifice that atones where are you?
Quote And in the prophet Micah we learn that God does not want all of those sacrifices, all he wants is for us to do justice, to love kindness and walk humbly with Him. “With what shall I come before YAHWEH, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will YAHWEH be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does YAHWEH require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” Micah Chapter 6 verse 6
Yes. And thus again you completely devalue the 'sacrifice' of Jesus. You are seeing what most Jews already know: sacrifice is not the most important part of atonement, the repentant heart is. That is why Jews can still receive atonement outside of animal sacrifice.
Quote Quote Is YHVH as bloodthirsty as the Tanakh puts Him out to be? I don't believe so. I believe it was men who wanted to justify what they did in the name of YHVH. People have been trying to justify evil in the name of G-d since the dawn of man. If people would just realize that they might be able to actually believe in G-d I agree with you there. But then you are saying that the bible is not the innerant word of God aren't you?
Yes that is what I am saying. G-d did not write the bible, men did. Have you ever felt inspired of G-d? Were your thoughts at this time always correct? We are all fallible.
Quote Quote The scribes in Jer 8:8 are much like the same in Mat 5:20. They are NOT the ones who copied scripture. Why would a person who merely copies text be called 'righteous'? No, scribes were teachers. So what you see in Jer 8:8 is a rebuke against false teachers who know the word of YHVH but teach something different to the people Jeremiah clearly says that it is the lying pen of the scribes. Sounds like someone who is copying, or writing something to me.
And why would you quote Matthew when you believe nothing that he said?Yes, scribes are writers but the ones here are the ones writing, not copying. 'Scribe' can mean writer or journalist, so these are men (or women?) who are writing instruction that is not to be heeded.
How many religious authors do we have today? Do all write the truth? Why would that time in history be any different?
Quote Quote As shown though it was the manner, not the actual practices. Note that YHVH used 'your' quite often. They were no longer YHVH's way, they were being done in the way of man. No, I am pretty sure that it was the practice that was an abomination to God.
No, because
sacrifices, new moons, etc. will all be instituted again during the 3rd temple. It is the manner in which they were doing them which was ungodly.Quote Quote No, you just need to understand the passages better and investigate deeper. I think you know context. Please reread these passages in their true context and you will come to understand. Actually, I think that I have. But I will try again. I am certainly open to new enlightenment.
Tim
We all should.Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 08 2007,14:38) Nick Stu cant understand and won't because God is not calling Him. No matter what you or anybody will say to Him, He will either make fun of the situation or discredit you or trying to, and there is scriptures that tell us we should dust of our shoes, you know. Peace and Love Mrs.
Yes what you believe has a strong influence in your life.
He cannot believe spiritual things because the carnal mind cannot comprehend such things.Such things are for those who are in the messiah, those who are joined to God by his Spirit.
Stu believes he is an ape, so what chance will he have (if he holds to this), of becoming a son of God?
The most he can attain with his current beliefs in tact is to become some kind of exalted ape I suppose.
t8!
Quote He cannot believe spiritual things because the carnal mind cannot comprehend such things.
The carnal mind! Are you some kind of puritan, t8?Quote Stu believes he is an ape, so what chance will he have (if he holds to this), of becoming a son of God?
I know for a biological fact that I am an ape, as are you. You seem very exercised about this, and I don’t understand why.Quote The most he can attain with his current beliefs in tact is to become some kind of exalted ape I suppose.
I do not need to collect points on my christian heaven club card like you do. Do you get extra credit for denying biological definitions?Stuart
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 09 2007,05:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2007,12:03) Hi Tow,
If you do not know and love Paul
you do not know and love Christ.” Love one another as I have loved you”
Well duh. I don't believe in the mythological Jesus of the GT. That Jewish teacher was mixed with many pagan mythologies and given a Jewish heritage. That about says it all. If Jesus did exist, he was very unlike what you find written in the GT. If he was indeed like that, then it is sad indeed. No true G-d fearing Jew would say and do the things attributed to Jesus in the GT.
Hi Tow,
Are you a believer in God?
Are you hopeful for salvation through obedience to the Law?
If so are you perfect in your fulfillment of it's demands?Nick Tow is considered a nonbeliever according to this scripture
1 John 2 : 23-24
WHOEVER DENIETH THE SON THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER
HE THAT ACKNODLEGES THE SON HATH THE FATHER ALSO.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi,
I guess in life you have a few options.Believe in your own observations and intuition.
Believe in the guidance and leadership of other people.
Believe the bible is the truth revealed by God Himself.I think the third makes the most sense.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2007,01:44) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 09 2007,05:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2007,12:03) Hi Tow,
If you do not know and love Paul
you do not know and love Christ.” Love one another as I have loved you”
Well duh. I don't believe in the mythological Jesus of the GT. That Jewish teacher was mixed with many pagan mythologies and given a Jewish heritage. That about says it all. If Jesus did exist, he was very unlike what you find written in the GT. If he was indeed like that, then it is sad indeed. No true G-d fearing Jew would say and do the things attributed to Jesus in the GT.
Hi Tow,
Are you a believer in God?
Are you hopeful for salvation through obedience to the Law?
If so are you perfect in your fulfillment of it's demands?
Careful, your Christian pre-supposition is showing. It is your Greek text (GT) that gives people the false idea that Jews were looking for salvation through Torah keeping, or that it requires perfection in its observance. Neither could be further from the truth.Observance of the Torah is the ideal to reach but no one can be perfect in it. Beyond that, not all mitzvot apply to all people. Some apply to the priest class, some only to men, etc. Did King David perfectly keep Torah? How about King Solomon? Yet G-d was pleased with both men.
You see, the GT had to make it appear that Jews could only be 'saved' through perfect Torah observance. If they knew the truth, then Jesus would be of no need to them. So the GT goes out of its way to make the Torah out to be imperfect and useless, while study of Torah and Tanakh would reveal that G-d did not create an imperfect covenant with Torah.
Whatever the case, I am not a Jew, I am a Righteous Gentile. That is, I worship and believe in YHVH. A study of Tanach will show that YHVH is the G-d of Israel but that He is also the G-d of all flesh. Ninevah shows this, as does Jer 32:27, Num 16:22, and Num 27:16.
YHVH never said one would have to believe in a man for salvation. He constantly said He is the only savior. Beyond that, there is no idea of being 'saved' from one's sins. G-d gave all of us free will and we are the ones who choose to do those things which are pleasing to him or not. The is no little satan on one soldier and a guardian angel on the other whispering in our ears.
Hi Tow,
I have been reading some of those passages again, actually meditating on them.Quote Quote
This rejection of the laws of Moses is echoed in the book of Isaiah.“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says YAHWEH; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and calling of convocation— I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them.” (Isaiah Chapter 1 verse 11)
This is an easy one. Basically it speaks of the vanity of seeking atonement when there is no repentance. They had been only going through the motions and were not sincerely regretful for their wickedness. Its much like asking forgiveness for lying and then turning around and lying to someone. You understand true repentance don't you? I'm pretty sure you do.
I think you are trying to be an apologetic. God says ” I am tired of all of your sacrifices, I do not take any pleasure in them, they are an abomination to me. Who ever asked you to do these things anyway?”
And you say, that is what He said but isn't what He meant. I took it out of context.No, I think that God said exactly what He meant to say. And He meant exactly what He said. He never asked for these things and He doesn't want them.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 09 2007,10:36) Hi Tow,
I have been reading some of those passages again, actually meditating on them.Quote Quote
This rejection of the laws of Moses is echoed in the book of Isaiah.“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says YAHWEH; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and calling of convocation— I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them.” (Isaiah Chapter 1 verse 11)
This is an easy one. Basically it speaks of the vanity of seeking atonement when there is no repentance. They had been only going through the motions and were not sincerely regretful for their wickedness. Its much like asking forgiveness for lying and then turning around and lying to someone. You understand true repentance don't you? I'm pretty sure you do.
I think you are trying to be an apologetic. God says ” I am tired of all of your sacrifices, I do not take any pleasure in them, they are an abomination to me. Who ever asked you to do these things anyway?”
And you say, that is what He said but isn't what He meant. I took it out of context.No, I think that God said exactly what He meant to say. And He meant exactly what He said. He never asked for these things and He doesn't want them.
Tim
I don't think I am being apologetic but you are free to believe this is the case. However, if you believe that they were never required, and this was long before Jesus, then his human sacrifice is completely without merit and therefore of no value whatsoever.Nick and Timothy I wish you would take heath of what scriptures advice you to do. Shake of the dust of your shoes.
Peace and Love Mrs.:(
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2007,11:44) Hi Tow,
In what way are you righteous before God?
It is merely a description. I don't truly call myself righteous. Perhaps a better description would be 'G-d fearing Gentile'. Here is a very simple verse to understand the distinction howeverMal 3:18 And you shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who has not served Him.
It really is that simple. Its not about perfectly keeping Torah. If not, no one would be righteous. Yet many men were called righteous in Tanakh. Do you suppose that they were perfect? If that is the requirement then your Jesus is just one of many perfect people.
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