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Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ Sep. 17 2009,08:25) If you don't believe Jesus was Saved by God then that is up to you but I believe that Jesus was saved by God. why do you want to be saved but insist that Jesus couldn't have been saved?
Yes EFJ, Jesus WAS SAVED as you say! Because God rose him from the grave! And I believe that the reason Jesus felt God had left him when he cried outEli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Was because God couldnt look on the cruelty, suffering and death of his Son.
Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 17 2009,10:47) Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ Sep. 17 2009,08:25) If you don't believe Jesus was Saved by God then that is up to you but I believe that Jesus was saved by God. why do you want to be saved but insist that Jesus couldn't have been saved?
Yes EFJ, Jesus WAS SAVED as you say! Because God rose him from the grave! And I believe that the reason Jesus felt God had left him when he cried outEli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Was because God couldnt look on the cruelty, suffering and death of his Son.
Well, if you believe that Jesus was saved and did not see corruption in the grave what makes it so impossible that his Father saved him from the cruelty and plot of evil men?When the scripture says that Jesus cried out:
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
it also says during that time darkness was over the land so no one saw “him” at that time.
The Quran is explicit in this saying:
(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)One thing for sure is when Mary saw him she did not immediately recognize him.
Ignatius being 3rd Bishop of Antioch, a sudent of the Apostle John, he wrote these letters on his way to Rome where he was martyred, in 108ad.
I know theres plenty more early writtings saying the same things, but Ignatius is just what I happen to be reading today,———————————-
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Chapter 9
Reference To The History Of Christ… He was crucified and died under Pontius Pilate. He really, and not merely in appearance, was crucified, and died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. By those in heaven I mean such as are possessed of incorporeal natures; by those on earth, the Jews and Romans, and such persons as were present at that time when the Lord was crucified; and by those under the earth, the multitude that arose along with the Lord. For says the Scripture, “Many bodies of the saints that slept arose,” their graves being opened.
He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall. He also rose again in three days, the Father raising Him up; and after spending forty days with the apostles, He was received up to the Father, and “sat down at His right hand, expecting till His enemies are placed under His feet.” On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathaea had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord's Day contains the resurrection.
Chapter 10
The Reality Of Christ's PassionBut if, as some that are without God, that is, the unbelieving, say, He became man in appearance [only], that He did not in reality take unto Him a body, that He died in appearance [merely], and did not in very deed suffer, then for what reason am I now in bonds, and long to be exposed to the wild beasts? In such a case, I die in vain, and am guilty of falsehood against the cross of the Lord. Then also does the prophet in vain declare, “They shall look on Him whom they have pierced, and mourn over themselves as over one beloved.” These men, therefore, are not less unbelievers than were those that crucified Him. But as for me, I do not place my hopes in one who died for me in appearance, but in reality.
For that which is false is quite abhorrent to the truth. Mary then did truly conceive a body which had God inhabiting it. And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin, but without any intercourse of man. He was carried in the womb, even as we are, for the usual period of time; and was really born, as we also are; and was in reality nourished with milk, and partook of common meat and drink, even as we do. And when He had lived among men for thirty years, He was baptized by John, really and not in appearance; and when He had preached the Gospel three years, and done signs and wonders, He who was Himself the Judge was judged by the Jews, falsely so called, and by Pilate the governor; was scourged, was smitten on the cheek, was spit upon; He wore a crown of thorns and a purple robe; He was condemned: He was crucified in reality, and not in appearance, not in imagination, not in deceit. He really died, and was buried, and rose from the dead, even as He prayed in a certain place, saying, “But do Thou, O Lord, raise me up again, and I shall recompense them.”
And the Father, who always hears Him, answered and said, “Arise, O God, and judge the earth; for Thou shall receive all the heathen for Thine inheritance.” The Father, therefore, who raised Him up, will also raise us up through Him, apart from whom no one will attain to true life. For says He, “I am the life; he that believeth in me, even though he die, shall live: and every one that liveth and believeth in me, even though he die, shall live for ever.” Do ye therefore flee from these ungodly heresies; for they are the inventions of the devil, that serpent who was the author of evil, and who by means of the woman deceived Adam, the father of our race.
Chapter 11
Avoid The Deadly Errors Of The DocetistsFlee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible. By it He calls you through His passion, as being His members. The head, therefore, cannot be born by itself, without its members; God, who is [the Saviour] Himself, having promised their union.
Do ye also avoid those wicked offshoots of his, Simon his firstborn son, and Menander, and Basilides, and all his wicked mob of followers, the worshippers of a man, whom also the prophet Jeremiah pronounces accursed. Flee also the impure Nicolaitanes, falsely so called, who are lovers of pleasure, and given to calumnious speeches. Avoid also the children of the evil one, Theodotus and Cleobulus, who produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies, and that not a mere temporary death, but one that shall endure for ever. These men are not the planting of the Father, but are an accursed brood. And says the Lord, “Let every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted be rooted up.” For if they had been branches of the Father, they would not have been “enemies of the cross of Christ,” but rather of those who “killed the Lord of glory.” But now, by denying the cross, and being ashamed of the passion, they cover the transgression of the Jews, those fighters against God, those murderers of the Lord; for it were too little to style them merely murderers of the prophets. But Christ invites you to [share in] His immortality, by His passion and resurrection, inasmuch as ye are His members.
Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 17 2009,10:47) Because God rose him from the grave! And I believe that the reason Jesus felt God had left him when he cried out Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Was because God couldnt look on the cruelty, suffering and death of his Son.
Actually Jesus cried this out in our placeQuote (karmarie @ Sep. 17 2009,10:47) Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ Sep. 17 2009,08:25) If you don't believe Jesus was Saved by God then that is up to you but I believe that Jesus was saved by God. why do you want to be saved but insist that Jesus couldn't have been saved?
Yes EFJ, Jesus WAS SAVED as you say! Because God rose him from the grave! And I believe that the reason Jesus felt God had left him when he cried outEli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Was because God couldnt look on the cruelty, suffering and death of his Son.
How human you make God, he can, according to scripture, wipe from the face of the earth every human and animal except for a few on a boat, he can order the death of men, women and children when blocking the expansion of ancient Jews, he allows what we view as evil in this material world for whatever purpose he has for our evolution (or testing because to most of you here thats what life amounts to), yet he looks away from his son because he can't stand to see him suffer. The creator of the entire universe who has no peers, is supreme in all things, who will is law and who set up everything according to that will, looks away because he can't stand the sight of his son suffering for a few hours out of eternity?Quote (Cato @ Sep. 19 2009,06:31) Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 17 2009,10:47) Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ Sep. 17 2009,08:25) If you don't believe Jesus was Saved by God then that is up to you but I believe that Jesus was saved by God. why do you want to be saved but insist that Jesus couldn't have been saved?
Yes EFJ, Jesus WAS SAVED as you say! Because God rose him from the grave! And I believe that the reason Jesus felt God had left him when he cried outEli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Was because God couldnt look on the cruelty, suffering and death of his Son.
How human you make God, he can, according to scripture, wipe from the face of the earth every human and animal except for a few on a boat, he can order the death of men, women and children when blocking the expansion of ancient Jews, he allows what we view as evil in this material world for whatever purpose he has for our evolution (or testing because to most of you here thats what life amounts to), yet he looks away from his son because he can't stand to see him suffer. The creator of the entire universe who has no peers, is supreme in all things, who will is law and who set up everything according to that will, looks away because he can't stand the sight of his son suffering for a few hours out of eternity?
Personally I don't think God did cause the Great Flood. I think it's a mistake to confuse a warning of an event to come with the cause of that event. Easy to see how people who know no different could tie the two together however.I don't think God is remotely human, even if God must appear sufficiently human to people for the purposes of communication – and indeed we want to believe there is greater similarity than there really is.
I won't speculate on what end game God would have in mind for the human race (or to what ends interaction occurs, or what interactions benefit God) but it is a question that interests me.
Proof of the pudding in the immediate future is certainly in the eating, as it were.
Hi Douglas!
To Cato and CA, how are we to know?
And how are we to know what God feels when each one of us suffer??? Hmmm???Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 19 2009,13:21) Hi Douglas! To Cato and CA, how are we to know?
And how are we to know what God feels when each one of us suffer??? Hmmm???
We are taught of God through His Church.CA from all of my searching, the closest iv found to where id like to go is the eastern orthodox church, but they use images and icons in worship which is a pity, or id be there.
Eastern Orthodox believe life (and the afterlife too) is all about drawing close to God, they call it theosis.
Heaven and hell are just how close or distant to God
When Jesus went down to hell he set ALL the people free
Church isnt spoken its 'sung' without instruments and daily too
Tithing= Charity giving to the poor and needy as able
Fasting regularly and in all types of ways
Sabbath =Saterday the Lords day =Sunday
The church is like the Arc to give safety from the flood of distractions and temptationsQuote (Cato @ Sep. 19 2009,06:31) Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 17 2009,10:47) Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ Sep. 17 2009,08:25) If you don't believe Jesus was Saved by God then that is up to you but I believe that Jesus was saved by God. why do you want to be saved but insist that Jesus couldn't have been saved?
Yes EFJ, Jesus WAS SAVED as you say! Because God rose him from the grave! And I believe that the reason Jesus felt God had left him when he cried outEli, Eli, lama sabachthani? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Was because God couldnt look on the cruelty, suffering and death of his Son.
How human you make God, he can, according to scripture, wipe from the face of the earth every human and animal except for a few on a boat, he can order the death of men, women and children when blocking the expansion of ancient Jews, he allows what we view as evil in this material world for whatever purpose he has for our evolution (or testing because to most of you here thats what life amounts to), yet he looks away from his son because he can't stand to see him suffer. The creator of the entire universe who has no peers, is supreme in all things, who will is law and who set up everything according to that will, looks away because he can't stand the sight of his son suffering for a few hours out of eternity?
Not only that Cato but at the same time they say he knew this would happen since time began and it was planned and in fact he was looking upon himself in the flesh and although only One Third of God was dying for a few days it was unbearable but if you don't accept Christ as your “personal” saviour you are going to spend all of eternity in Hell.This is not what the bible teaches but that is what some believe.
Can I ask you both Cato and BD how many times you have read the bible? Or for how many years? Iv only read the new testament once. So im only learning.
I really have no idea, I am certainly no Bible scholar and I find scripture a hard read for it is to me a disjointed collection. I view the Bible, like panning for gold in a stream, there are really some golden nuggets of truth, but you do have to sift through a lot of sand too. Some parts are inspired, but they after all, written, edited, compiled and translated by men. I also find truths and inspiration from other works from other religious and spiritual backgrounds. Truth is meant to be journey of discovery and there are many stops not just one.
Well I just have to say, thankyou Catholic Apologist! You kindly told me I had mistaken something, and said the Church is where I can learn things. If theres open arms somewhere thats where I will be! If they can help me draw close to God thats where I will be!
But iv decided to learn to get closer to God the Eastern Orthodox way, I feel drawn to its mysteriousness! Though I hate the icons
But thanks I just think iv found what im looking for
JUDGMENT DAY: (81)
Has the final day of Judgment has come? Has the word of God, Jesus, decended from Heaven with powerful words of God that create and give life to believers or destroy and burn as with fire the unbelieving right now? Are not the words of Christ judging each individual by their either accepting or rejecting? The word of God is the final judgment. Those who have accepted the free gift of God have been judged as perfect in Christ! You are the righteousness of God in Christ! If you believe your God given righteousness in Christ, then your judgment is over!You have been judged as righteous by faith like Abraham! Judgment is by faith and accepting or unbelief and rejecting. God said it, that’s final! The great judgment is at hand and the eternal word of God (Jesus) has gone forth to judge the sinner or one that thought he was in sin, as righteous. Remember, the eternal word of God was, is, is being and forever will be. Gods word has purified like fire any wrong thinking or sin. God’s word is purifying and God’s word will purify. Gods word (Jesus), has cut away the chaff from the wheat and is separating the goats from the sheep and is making mankind perfect once and for all. It is for all that will believe. Those who disbelieve have denied their perfection/salvation and condemned themselves to pain and suffering on Earth. Can you hear the Spirit call? Now, you judge yourself, either perfect in Christ through believing what Jesus says or condemned to hellfire somehow for eternity!Its your choice. You are the ruler of your Kingdom of God which is in you(Luke 17:;21),you are not in charge of anyone else’s. The choices of what to believe are yours alone. Jesus said, “judge not others, lest ye be judged, for by the same judgment you use for them, it will be measured back to you”!
There is therefore now, no condemnation in Love. Condemn no one, lest you be condemned. Did you hear? Don’t judge/condemn what people do as wrong in Gods eyes. If they are transgressing your personal space ask them kindly to correct the situation. You see, telling someone their wrong in God’s eyes, or that they are sinning, is totally different than telling them you don’t like something their doing. In other words don’t tell them they are sinning or doing wrong against God! That is not your right to judge. If you judge at all judge in righteous judgment. All are righteous in Christ. What they are doing may or may not be wrong in your eyes or your brother’s eyes but if you judge it wrong for him in God‘s eyes, then the judgment becomes yours personally. You rule (you) God’s Kingdom. You’re free to do and experience anything in and of yourself, but leave others alone to rule their own Kingdoms. Your freedom is their freedom. If you attempt to condemn others it will not affect them but it will bind you because you are condemning yourself. Actually with the freedom given in Christ, there are no rules or laws from God. So, if you take your power and set a rule or law for another person it doesn’t effect them, it establishes a rule for you where there was no rule, only freedom. For those of you who think that there will be a final, great white throne judgment day before God, and God will be the judge, know that, he will judge you by the same eternal word he gave to Jesus to give to all who would accept. You were cleansed, you are clean and you will be clean!Jesus paid the way for you! Now, then, always, Heaven is home. You don’t try to get there, you live there. You are spirit, animating a soul and living in a physical body in the Earth. The essence of you is the eternal life force or Soul of God and you are experiencing life in physicality. There’s Heaven and Earth and when you leave your physical body, you are in Heaven. We have been made free in Christ. Where there is freedom, there is no law, where there are no rules, there are no laws and there is no punishment! This is in relation to God, not this earthly physical world. Here there are man made rules, and laws. Gods kingdom is peace, love, and joy in the holy spirit. No law is needed in Gods Kingdom! Do I believe in reincarnation as truth, yes absolutely! Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah whom it was for-told or prophesied he would come back into the world again. Try to expand your mind a bit and live outside the small box you have created. You have not only lived many, many lives here on Earth but I believe you are living multiple contiguous lives or parallel lives right now. Come on, stretch your mind a little, if you really believe you are the offspring of God, the Source of all Existence you will investigate a little about who and what you really are and are capable of doing. Its recorded that Jesus used teleportation, transfiguration, walked through walls, through people, walked on water, created money in a fish, stilled the wind, opened blind eyes and many more supernatural evidences of his control of the physical world. If you are just finding out that you are a child of the creator of all, are you not interested what your family inheritance might be. Especially if you are the creator’s son. An unlimited creator wants for nothing!! “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want…”! He just creates it himself!! Therefore, what could he possibly need? Give love to all, always. Give all people your same freedoms and gifts that God has given you and you will experience joy unspeakable. Peace to all forever,TKHi TK.
” All are righteous in Christ.”?But all are not in Christ.
There is no condemnation for THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS.Even you speak of those who HAVE accepted the free gift so some have not and will not.
Wheat and chaff, sheep and goats.Why do you offer a false gospel of universal forgiveness and cleansing when we need to come to Jesus to be washed in his blood?
God knows the intentons of THE HEART!
There are fakes in the world. Doing things just to be noticed, to be liked, some hearts are pure. They may be lost and confused, but God sorts the wheat from the weeds. God knows each and every individual.Blind faith is just believing, But then it turns into analyzing, is God a trinity, where is the true church and so on, when does it end? see that is the problem! The problem probably wasnt in changes made in the Nicene council, it was the fact God was analyzed. And its carried on ever since
God cant be analyzed! God dwells in spirit and truth. You either feel God there, or you see God 'out there' a puzzle, some-THING, that needs to be analyzed
'knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth' its true
Jesus is the door, you cant enter through any other door, or its the wrong house!
EFJ is like alot of us searching, confused, easily changable. Jesus did say that unless we become like little children, well little children are hungry to be taught, they are gullible. Its a tangle of lies, everywhere. God is spirit. God wants us to be like children, God wants us to repent and return to him. As weak and vulnerable as we are.
By faith we are saved.
Hi KM and welcome,
Good points.Many come here to express their vain ideas about God.
It would be so much more valuable if they listened to His eternal message and responded.Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 21 2009,22:23) Can I ask you both Cato and BD how many times you have read the bible? Or for how many years? Iv only read the new testament once. So im only learning.
Sorry for the delay I was away on vacation. I have been studying the Bible for over 30 years and I am currently 43 years old(Young).I have read it from cover to back in sequence maybe twice, certain books I have studied much more than others. There have been periods where I have studied the 4 gospels in depth and other times where I have studied the writings of Paul in depth, there have been times where my focus was on all the prophets and their miracles only and there have been times where I would simply study sin and the nature of sin(specifically and generally)
While sin can be a specific breaking of a commandment/law. Sin in general is being disobedient to God, period!
For instance to kill is a sin but to not kill when God has commanded a people to kill is a sin as well.
Since God is the Commander and Law giver only He has the right to deem someone sinful or pure.
Turning to God purifies us, period!
Remember no matter how much Moses was righteous in the end his undoing was disobedience and striking that rock.
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