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While doing some other studying, I stumbled across some things that I must admit disturb me. I am posting this so that I can get the feedback of others who may have looked into the “Beloved Disciple”, the one who wrote the Gospel of John. Scholars say that this disciple is the Apostle John and there is little to refute that, but I still need to reconcile some things that are odd. I’ll start with the events surrounding the mention of the betrayal by Judas as the Last Supper.
Matthew 26:20-25 – Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. As they were eating, He said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.” Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, “Surely not I, Lord?” And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself.”
Mark 14:17-21 – When it was evening He came with the twelve. As they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me–one who is eating with Me.” They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, “Surely not I?” And He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl. “For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Both Matthew and Mark record similar accounts of this event. Luke does not have the account at all. Note that each Apostle said to Jesus “Surely not I”. Now lets look at the John account.
John 13:21-26 – When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.” The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. So Simon Peter gestured to him, and said to him, “Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.” He, leaning back thus on Jesus' bosom, said to Him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus then answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
The account of the event starts and ends just as it did in Matthew and Mark, but the manner in which the Apostles address the accusation was totally different. Instead of each saying “Surely not I”, John records Peter asking the Beloved Disciple, who was reclining on Jesus’ bosom, to tell the others who it was. Peter did not address Jesus directly in John’s account, but the Beloved Disciple! Why are these two accounts so different, and why does the difference come with the Beloved Disciple? Why would Peter address the Beloved Disciple and not Jesus directly?
Next, there are some differences in the Cross account as well, with the Beloved Disciple showing up only in John.
Matthew 27:55-56 – Many women were there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee while ministering to Him. Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Mark 15:40-41 – There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome. When He was in Galilee, they used to follow Him and minister to Him; and there were many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.
Luke 23:49 – And all His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee were standing at a distance, seeing these things.
John 19:25-27 – Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.
Matthew and Mark are both similar, with Mark adding Salome. Luke doesn’t list any names but speaks of acquaintances and women who accompanied him. But note that all three mentioned that they were all viewing the Crucifixion from a distance. Not so in John.
John again includes Mary Magdalene, but we have the addition of Jesus’ mother, and Mary, wife of Clopas (who is she?). But this time, they were standing by the cross, not viewing from a distance! That would be OK, but Mary Magdalene was mentioned in Matthew and Mark as viewing the cross from a distance! And in the next verse, who shows up but the Beloved Disciple! And Jesus spoke to the Beloved Disciple and his mother, telling them of their new relationship.
Then, there are some troubling differences in the Empty Tomb account, again, concerning the Beloved Disciple. Matthew and Mark do not even record that any of the Apostles visited the Tomb, but Luke and John do.
Luke 24:12 – But Peter got up and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings only; and he went away to his home, marveling at what had happened.
John 20:3-8 – So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb. The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in. And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed.
In Luke, only Peter visits the tomb. Luke also records that it was Peter who stooped to look in and says nothing about actually entering the tomb.
Now in John, the Beloved Disciple shows up again. John says he reached the tomb before Peter and that it was the Beloved Disciple who stooped to look in! Then Peter shows up and enters the tomb, followed shortly after by the Beloved Disciple. John records that Peter did not see the linens until he entered the tomb, unlike the Luke account.
The next odd moment involving the Beloved Disciple was not recorded in any other place, but I find it to be out of character for Jesus. You can be the judge but this may just be a side note instead of an issue.
John 21:30-22 – Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
Beyond the reaction to Peter by Jesus (which seemed out of character and harsh considering the question IMO), what was the significance of this passage? Again, it appears that the Beloved Disciple is somehow elevating his importance to Jesus.
Finally, I wanted to note one other passage because it was only recorded in John but seems to be of the very large importance. Why were they not recorded in the other Gospels? And it seems to conflict with Acts.
John 20:21-24 – So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He br
eathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.This is an incredible event with serious implications. Why was this left out of the other Gospels? As far as can be seen, the only one of the 11 Apostles not in attendance was Thomas (which means he missed out on receiving of the Holy Spirit) so its not like there was a lack of witnesses. Matthew and Peter should have been there, so why was the account not in Matthew or Mark (who many said collaborated with Peter for his Gospel)?
How does this compare with Acts then?
Acts 1:4-9 – Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
In other words, here we have an account where Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be given to them, but he ascended before that actually took place. Why would they need this if they had already received the Holy Spirit back in John 20:22?
Acts 2:1-4 – When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
In fact, the account of the Day of Pentacost in Acts coincides more with the following than the account given in John 20:22.
John 16:5-7 – “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Jesus is telling them of his ascension to the Father. Here he says he must go away so that the Helper, the Holy Spirit, will come to them. This coincides with the account in Acts 1 & 2.
I apologize if this troubles anyone else. It has greatly troubled me because I have not noted these things in the past. There were some things that you just accepted because that is what is taught, and I used to think I was good about “checking things out”. But I missed these.
Can anyone offer any insight? Thanks!
Hi kj,
You say
“——————————————————————————–
While doing some other studying, I stumbled across some things that I must admit disturb me. I am posting this so that I can get the feedback of others who may have looked into the “Beloved Disciple”, the one who wrote the Gospel of John. Scholars say that this disciple is the Apostle John and there is little to refute that, but I still need to reconcile some things that are odd. I’ll start with the events surrounding the mention of the betrayal by Judas as the Last Supper.Matthew 26:20-25 – Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. As they were eating, He said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.” Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, “Surely not I, Lord?” And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself.”
Mark 14:17-21 – When it was evening He came with the twelve. As they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me–one who is eating with Me.” They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, “Surely not I?” And He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl. “For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Both Matthew and Mark record similar accounts of this event. Luke does not have the account at all. Note that each Apostle said to Jesus “Surely not I”. Now lets look at the John account.
John 13:21-26 – When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.” The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. So Simon Peter gestured to him, and said to him, “Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.” He, leaning back thus on Jesus' bosom, said to Him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus then answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
The account of the event starts and ends just as it did in Matthew and Mark, but the manner in which the Apostles address the accusation was totally different. Instead of each saying “Surely not I”, John records Peter asking the Beloved Disciple, who was reclining on Jesus’ bosom, to tell the others who it was. Peter did not address Jesus directly in John’s account, but the Beloved Disciple! Why are these two accounts so different, and why does the difference come with the Beloved Disciple? Why would Peter address the Beloved Disciple and not Jesus directly?”
The gospels were written some time after the events and were done by the ability of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus of bringing things back to their remembrance. Around a busy table these events could have been sequential. John could have been answered first and then, being overheard, others may have got involved and the conversation become general. We need to first accept it as truth and then try to grasp the hows rather than first seeking understanding and then believing. The precious words are the foundation for our hope.
ps You say
“The account of the event starts and ends just as it did in Matthew and Mark, but the manner in which the Apostles address the accusation was totally different. Instead of each saying “Surely not I”, John records Peter asking the Beloved Disciple, who was reclining on Jesus’ bosom, to tell the others who it was. Peter did not address Jesus directly in John’s account, but the Beloved Disciple! Why are these two accounts so different, and why does the difference come with the Beloved Disciple? Why would Peter address the Beloved Disciple and not Jesus directly?Next, there are some differences in the Cross account as well, with the Beloved Disciple showing up only in John.
Matthew 27:55-56 – Many women were there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee while ministering to Him. Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Mark 15:40-41 – There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome. When He was in Galilee, they used to follow Him and minister to Him; and there were many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.
Luke 23:49 – And all His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee were standing at a distance, seeing these things.
John 19:25-27 – Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.
Matthew and Mark are both similar, with Mark adding Salome. Luke doesn’t list any names but speaks of acquaintances and women who accompanied him. But note that all three mentioned that they were all viewing the Crucifixion from a distance. Not so in John.
John again includes Mary Magdalene, but we have the addition of Jesus’ mother, and Mary, wife of Clopas (who is she?). But this time, they were standing by the cross, not viewing from a distance! That would be OK, but Mary Magdalene was mentioned in Matthew and Mark as viewing the cross from a distance! And in the next verse, who shows up but the Beloved Disciple! And Jesus spoke to the Beloved Disciple and his mother, telling them of their new relationship.”
Details of who was present also are not essential but again many could have watched from a distance and then some come close enough to speak with him. John was the brave one and interestingly was one not asked to die as a martyr.
ps
You say
“Then, there are some troubling differences in the Empty Tomb account, again, concerning the Beloved Disciple. Matthew and Mark do not even record that any of the Apostles visited the Tomb, but Luke and John do.Luke 24:12 – But Peter got up and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings only; and he went away to his home, marveling at what had happened.
John 20:3-8 – So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb. The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in. And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed.
In Luke, only Peter visits the tomb. Luke also records that it was Peter who stooped to look in and says nothing about actually entering the tomb.
Now in John, the Beloved Disciple shows up again. John says he reached the tomb before Peter and that it was the Beloved Disciple who stooped to look in! Then Peter shows up and enters the tomb, followed shortly after by the Beloved Disciple. John records that Peter did not see the linens until he entered the tomb, unlike the Luke account.”
Not so. It does not say Peter alone.
It just mentions Peter.
God usually requires witnesses.John is not a reporter from the local rag like the other three and prefers theme to detail and expressing love and motive rather than just fact.
ps You say
“The next odd moment involving the Beloved Disciple was not recorded in any other place, but I find it to be out of character for Jesus. You can be the judge but this may just be a side note instead of an issue.John 21:30-22 – Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
Beyond the reaction to Peter by Jesus (which seemed out of character and harsh considering the question IMO), what was the significance of this passage? Again, it appears that the Beloved Disciple is somehow elevating his importance to Jesus. “
Poor old Peter puts his foot in his mouth and has to have his rashness exposed again by the one who is truth. Why should we judge John?
There is no favouritism with God but wisdom is best shown often by shutting up.Nick,
Favor please? Could you use something to separate what you quoted from your response? Its hard to figure out where you start
.ps
You say
“Finally, I wanted to note one other passage because it was only recorded in John but seems to be of the very large importance. Why were they not recorded in the other Gospels? And it seems to conflict with Acts.John 20:21-24 – So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
This is an incredible event with serious implications. Why was this left out of the other Gospels? As far as can be seen, the only one of the 11 Apostles not in attendance was Thomas (which means he missed out on receiving of the Holy Spirit) so its not like there was a lack of witnesses. Matthew and Peter should have been there, so why was the account not in Matthew or Mark (who many said collaborated with Peter for his Gospel)?
How does this compare with Acts then?
Acts 1:4-9 – Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
In other words, here we have an account where Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be given to them, but he ascended before that actually took place. Why would they need this if they had already received the Holy Spirit back in John 20:22?
Acts 2:1-4 – When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
In fact, the account of the Day of Pentacost in Acts coincides more with the following than the account given in John 20:22.
John 16:5-7 – “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Jesus is telling them of his ascension to the Father. Here he says he must go away so that the Helper, the Holy Spirit, will come to them. This coincides with the account in Acts 1 & 2.”
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different thing from receiving the Spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,07:53) The gospels were written some time after the events and were done by the ability of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus of bringing things back to their remembrance. Around a busy table these events could have been sequential. John could have been answered first and then, being overheard, others may have got involved and the conversation become general. We need to first accept it as truth and then try to grasp the hows rather than first seeking understanding and then believing. The precious words are the foundation for our hope.
Yes they were written some time after. But does it not seem odd to you in the slightest that Peter asked the Beloved Disciple as opposed to Jesus himself? Had he asked Jesus I would not think much of it but why ask the Beloved Disciple to answer a question that only Jesus could answer? And Peter didn't say “Ask Jesus who he is talking about”, he said “Tell us” as if the Beloved Disciple had information the rest did not.I also wonder about the way the Beloved Disciple always described himself: “the disciple whom Jesus loved”. Would Jesus play favorites? You don't see this anywhere else.
There seems to be a theme of elevation of status in Jesus' eye by the one who wrote John. I'm just trying to figure out why.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,08:07) Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different thing from receiving the Spirit.
Scripture reference please.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,08:00) Not so. It does not say Peter alone.
It just mentions Peter.
God usually requires witnesses.John is not a reporter from the local rag like the other three and prefers theme to detail and expressing love and motive rather than just fact.
Thanks Nick. Sadly, this answer is merely apologetic.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,08:04) ps You say
“The next odd moment involving the Beloved Disciple was not recorded in any other place, but I find it to be out of character for Jesus. You can be the judge but this may just be a side note instead of an issue.John 21:30-22 – Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
Beyond the reaction to Peter by Jesus (which seemed out of character and harsh considering the question IMO), what was the significance of this passage? Again, it appears that the Beloved Disciple is somehow elevating his importance to Jesus. “
Poor old Peter puts his foot in his mouth and has to have his rashness exposed again by the one who is truth. Why should we judge John?
There is no favouritism with God but wisdom is best shown often by shutting up.
Not the first time Peter had “hoof in mouth disease”
. There must have been more than we read though because the answer does not fit the question. Again though, this seems to continue the theme of elevation of the Beloved Disciple in Jesus' eye by the writer of John.Quote (kejonn @ July 07 2007,08:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,08:07) Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different thing from receiving the Spirit.
Scripture reference please.
Hi kj,
Important issue.
Receiving the Spirit is about authority.Jn20
'22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. '
But the baptism of the Holy Spirit is about power.
Lk 24
“49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 'Jesus showed the difference and which was more important at the start of his ministry.
Mk2
'1And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.2And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion. '
First the disciples needed authority, then they were given power.
Quote (kejonn @ July 07 2007,08:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,08:04) ps You say
“The next odd moment involving the Beloved Disciple was not recorded in any other place, but I find it to be out of character for Jesus. You can be the judge but this may just be a side note instead of an issue.John 21:30-22 – Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
Beyond the reaction to Peter by Jesus (which seemed out of character and harsh considering the question IMO), what was the significance of this passage? Again, it appears that the Beloved Disciple is somehow elevating his importance to Jesus. “
Poor old Peter puts his foot in his mouth and has to have his rashness exposed again by the one who is truth. Why should we judge John?
There is no favouritism with God but wisdom is best shown often by shutting up.
Not the first time Peter had “hoof in mouth disease”. There must have been more than we read though because the answer does not fit the question. Again though, this seems to continue the theme of elevation of the Beloved Disciple in Jesus' eye by the writer of John.
Hi kj,
The words written by John are truth.
Jesus loved them all. John knew he was loved.Quote (kejonn @ July 07 2007,08:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,07:53) The gospels were written some time after the events and were done by the ability of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus of bringing things back to their remembrance. Around a busy table these events could have been sequential. John could have been answered first and then, being overheard, others may have got involved and the conversation become general. We need to first accept it as truth and then try to grasp the hows rather than first seeking understanding and then believing. The precious words are the foundation for our hope.
Yes they were written some time after. But does it not seem odd to you in the slightest that Peter asked the Beloved Disciple as opposed to Jesus himself? Had he asked Jesus I would not think much of it but why ask the Beloved Disciple to answer a question that only Jesus could answer? And Peter didn't say “Ask Jesus who he is talking about”, he said “Tell us” as if the Beloved Disciple had information the rest did not.I also wonder about the way the Beloved Disciple always described himself: “the disciple whom Jesus loved”. Would Jesus play favorites? You don't see this anywhere else.
There seems to be a theme of elevation of status in Jesus' eye by the one who wrote John. I'm just trying to figure out why.
Hi KJ,
There are more differences.
One says DIPS WITH ME[future]
One says DIPPED WITH [past]
One says I SHALL DIP the morsel and give it to him.[different]They could relate to three different conversations or events.
Hi Nick,
Your explanation on the difference between what Jesus did in John and what happened on the day of Pentacost is some heavy eisegesis
. Thanks in any case.Quote (kejonn @ July 07 2007,08:53) Hi Nick, Your explanation on the difference between what Jesus did in John and what happened on the day of Pentacost is some heavy eisegesis
. Thanks in any case.
Hi kj,
Not really.
The words are there.
Clearly the receiving of power was less important as Philip never seemed to get involved leaving it as a second matter to be dealt with by Peter and John etc.God wants men to be reborn and saved as top priority.
He also wants to continue his works of miracles because he loves them, and gives signs to help them believe, but saving men by empowering disciples to forgive their sins, the gospel of repentance for the forgiveness of sin, is the biggest deal.
Hi kejonn
I struggle to receive this writing of Johns as, that of the Nature and mission of Christ,
, due to the unwillingness to fight over him being turned over the Jews; Satan is the accuser of the brethren, Day and Night, But Now says John My Kingdom is not hence, and this dose not sound Like anything Christ would say to lost sheep that he has come for?Mere Small baby”s, even not understanding yet?
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Mat 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.I wish to stand on his right side, in the Kingdom
Mat 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:Hi charity,
Jn 18
35Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?”36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.
37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”John 18:36 Lit from here
Christ was not speaking to the disciples but to an earthly authority feeling under threat. So Christ explained that he was a king but that his kingdom was no current threat to Rome or any earthly power. It was entered by those who allowed the truth of the gsopel to be planted and grow in them but his rulership was not now but as we know later, when he returns.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2007,12:05) Hi charity,
Jn 18
35Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?”36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.
37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”John 18:36 Lit from here
Christ was not speaking to the disciples but to an earthly authority feeling under threat. So Christ explained that he was a king but that his kingdom was no current threat to Rome or any earthly power. It was entered by those who allowed the truth of the gsopel to be planted and grow in them but his rulership was not now but as we know later, when he returns.
According to MAT…Jesus answered once..saying… thou sayest.. and again he answered nothing…. And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.Mat 27:11 ¶ And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
Mat 27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
Mat 27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
Mat 27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.see how many times… John has Jesus answer Pilate questons?
Jhn 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? Jhn 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Jhn 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jhn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
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