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Before Time… Greetings!
You certainly have worked hard at fitting the pieces of history into the Preterist puzzle, but again, everything you’ve set out crashes if John wrote Revelation in 96-98CE. As I’ve mentioned before, most Bible authorities have the writing in 98CE. Considering that I wasn’t around at the time John received the revelation, I cannot prove beyond any doubt, one way or the other. However, BT, I see well enough to conclude that far too much foretold has yet to take place to have them neatly tucked away in the 1st Century.
The Revelation account in its entirety being “considered God’s divorce of Israel as God's covenant wife” stretches things a bit much, in my opinion, even though Jesus said as much (Luke 13:35) long before John held pen to paper. A new Heaven and Earth, however symbolic it may be, is the only way peace on earth can ever come about. The reality of this future event was confirmed by Jesus when He taught His disciples how to pray:
Matthew 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)
“Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.”Why would Jesus direct His beloved disciples to pray for something that would never happen? It doesn’t make any sense. The “kingdom” is real; it’s not just a spiritual condition as you infer. And the disciples were to become “kings and priests” over the earthly subjects of that kingdom as Revelation 20:4,6 makes very clear, but not before the earth (the entire world, globe) is cleansed of all the wicked and ungodly. Revelation 19:11-21; Matthew 25:31-46
Now you say that you “don’t see a world wide peace on earth.” and that you “just don’t see a mention of it in the New Testament.” You are not able to glean from the above Scriptures how this earth would become when God’s kingdom under Jesus and the faithful are in control. Why is that?
Think about these words, BT:
Psalm 46:8-10 (Darby Translation)
“Come, behold the works of Jehovah, what desolations he hath made in the earth: He hath made wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariots in the fire. Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”Revelation 21:1-4 (Darby Translation)
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God. And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away.”As you know, BT, that “holy city, new Jerusalem” is God’s heavenly Kingdom that will rule over mankind, guiding them:
Revelation 7:16-17 (Darby Translation)
“They shall not hunger any more, neither shall they thirst any more, nor shall the sun at all fall on them, nor any burning heat; because the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them, and shall lead them to fountains of waters of life, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
These things promised have not yet come to be. But they will! If you cannot see this, BT, then your heart must have hardened over the years. That was foretold to happen if one loses faith and breaks that precious lifeline between the himself/herself and the Holy Spirit. I truly hope that you can look beyond 70CE and into the future, BT, where God’s blessings under His Kingdom will wash over this world and bring much needed rest and happiness to all then alive. Try to see ahead, BT; you won’t be disappointed.
Sam
Quote (samual @ Aug. 17 2008,23:34) The real question of the day should be: If Christendom is Babylon the Great, where is the true Church? Do you know?
Perhaps the true Church is the Body of Christ and not the worldly system that tries to imprison all believers inside the walls of tradition and man made doctrine, thereby rendering them powerless?Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.Ephesians 5:29
After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the churchMark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”Quote (Irene @ Aug. 16 2008,14:11) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2008,11:31) Hi: If my understanding is correct the “Babylonian Whore” represents the church with all of its false doctrines. The Mother of Harlots is the Catholic church from which all of these false doctrines that are in the church orginate.
God Bless
You are right.
Peace and Love Irene
Perhaps a the whore is the Church who instead of being married to Christ and remaining virgins clothed in white, have married the world (system) and are clothed in purple.So the whore is neither the Church or the world but the subset of both.
She also sits on the Beast, so the Beast supports her.
A fitting description of the organization from Rome. I even think purple has a special meaning there and her existence is thanks to Rome and Constantine in particular.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2008,23:59) Quote (Irene @ Aug. 16 2008,14:11) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2008,11:31) Hi: If my understanding is correct the “Babylonian Whore” represents the church with all of its false doctrines. The Mother of Harlots is the Catholic church from which all of these false doctrines that are in the church orginate.
God Bless
You are right.
Peace and Love Irene
Perhaps a the whore is the Church who instead of being married to Christ and remaining virgins clothed in white, have married the world (system) and are clothed in purple.So the whore is neither the Church or the world but the subset of both.
She also sits on the Beast, so the Beast supports her.
A fitting description of the organization from Rome. I even think purple has a special meaning there and her existence is thanks to Rome and Constantine in particular.
We are so lucky to understand what happened when Constantine established the Roman Catholic Church and all others that came out of Her, we understand and have come out of that system.
Peace and Love IreneGood Morning Sam
Quote These things promised have not yet come to be. But they will! If you cannot see this, BT, then your heart must have hardened over the years. That was foretold to happen if one loses faith and breaks that precious lifeline between the himself/herself and the Holy Spirit. I truly hope that you can look beyond 70CE and into the future, BT, where God's blessings under His Kingdom will wash over this world and bring much needed rest and happiness to all then alive. It's good to see you're reproving me Sam I must be on the right track. I've answered your question and this is what I get instead of an alternate reply to those identical scriptures.
At least I take a shot and let the chips fall where they may. You're looking ahead to that which by no means will take place. Therefore, go back to the post and let's debate; Revelation chapter 17 so you can put me on track with Rev 17:9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom.” This way I can see why you're having such a hard time putting the pieces of puzzle together.
For the dating of Revelation check out those historians you say provide evidence its penned in AD 96 or thereabout. One of them says Christ died at the age of 50. Surprised!
Quote Try to see ahead, BT; you won't be “disappointed” No Sam we don't look ahead but look back at what Christ carried out. Not looking forward in time where we will achieve salvation by our righteous works in a supposed future millennium.
Sam we are at peace with God now through our Lord Jesus as we exult in our trouble, because this produces character, not spoon-feed in a paradise earth.
Read the following carefully.
Rom 5:1-5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have “peace with God” through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also “rejoice in our sufferings”, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not “disappoint” us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he “has” given us.
Today is the day of salvation and the hope is living in the paradise of God above.
BT
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2008,22:20) Quote (samual @ Aug. 17 2008,23:34) The real question of the day should be: If Christendom is Babylon the Great, where is the true Church? Do you know?
Perhaps the true Church is the Body of Christ and not the worldly system that tries to imprison all believers inside the walls of tradition and man made doctrine, thereby rendering them powerless?Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.Ephesians 5:29
After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the churchMark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!Thats EXACTLY what the “church” is. Remember
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.Ephesians 4:11-13
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.Ephesians 5:29
After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church—Quote Perhaps a the whore is the Church who instead of being married to Christ and remaining virgins clothed in white, have married the world (system) and are clothed in purple. So the whore is neither the Church or the world but the subset of both.
She also sits on the Beast, so the Beast supports her.
A fitting description of the organization from Rome. I even think purple has a special meaning there and her existence is thanks to Rome and Constantine in particular.
Putting Constantine and future Rome into Revelation perhaps is a good guess, but how does somebody support speculation scripturally. Once going beyond the first century (Rev. 1:1 “Must soon take place”) when John penned Revelation the imagination takes over. The expectation of the first century audience under persecution (Rev. 1:9) who read and heard the letter (Rev. 1:3) has nothing to do with Constantine or anyone else after their passing.
I consider the letter penned to first century (Rev. 1:1) Christians in Asia (Rev. 1:11) under persecution (Rev.1:9) for their encouragement. (Rev. 1:3) First century Christians since John said in (1:1 “Must soon take place.”) And in (1:3) “Because the time is near.” Their encouragement in view of the fact as follows (1:3) “Blessed” are those who hear it and take to heart”
The key to understanding Revelation in my estimation is to put on our sandals; go back in time finding out historical facts of that day. Look at the time text and “internal evidence” and dating of the book. If it’s prior to AD 70 then the beast possibility is Nero. 666
The unfaithful wife of Jehovah is Israel the Mystery Harlot in Revelation. She is dressed in Purple and Gold. (Rev. 17:3-5) (Ex. 28:5-6, 36) John has a way of taking OT language and applying it in Revelation. How the faithful city has become a harlot, she who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, but now murderers. Isa 1 Read Matthew chapter 23 and find out who murdered the Prophets and Saints.
BT
One interesting take is that the Church has 2 days in God's calendar.
Another is that the end is as close to preaching the gospel to every nation and tribe. Perhaps in the first century they were close to achieving this?
Matthew 24:14
“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.Maybe it is us who make the time drag on?
Quote One interesting take is that the Church has 2 days in God's calendar. Another is that the end is as close to preaching the gospel to every nation and tribe. Perhaps in the first century they were close to achieving this?
Matthew 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Maybe it is us who make the time drag on?
Matt 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
At first glance this scripture suggests the Gospel will be preached to the whole world; giving cause to believe the end will come in our lifetime or future. However, did Jesus mean these idioms? Only when going to the original dialect do we sense a different interpretation of the verse. Jesus states that all the signs previously, “Matt. 24:4-23” given on the Mount of Olives would come about within the generation then living.
The word “World” in Matthew 24:14 in strong’s Greek and Hebrew dictionary is “NT 3625 Oikoumene”, translated specifically, the Roman Empire. Not the cosmos as recorded in other places using the same word.
The word “Nations” in the same verse is “NT 1484 ethnos” is specially, a none-Jew. Not all the nations on the globe in our day.
For the expression “the end will come” signifies the end of the Jewish age, not world (Cosmos) and it happened in AD 70 where there was not one stone on another stone, ending the Jewish economy. Matthew 24:2, 3
Quote Perhaps in the first century they were close to achieving this? THEY DID ACHIEVE IT
Col 1:6 that “has” come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that “has” been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
BT
Quote Greeting…to all Who or what is the beast of Revelation? Coming to some considerations it would serve good to uncover some clues who this monster is lingering inside a most symbolic dynamic book.
There are two views on the writing of Revelation by John, possible John the Apostle. The late date view is the most popular and the early date running not far behind.
Was the volume addressed to the first century audience or a future generation in some time or place, or to both?
What was the intention of its writing given by God to show his servant John?
Finally, what is the theme of the manuscript?
I consider after these questions are addressed the beast will not be veiled under a dark cloud of assumption …. Or will it.
For the most part I consider the letter was penned to the first century (Rev. 1:1) Christian churches in Asia (Rev. 1:11) under persecution (Rev.1:9) for their encouragement. (Rev. 1:3) First century Christians since John said in 1:1 “Must soon take place.” And in 1:3 “Because the time is near.” Their encouragement in view of the fact as follows 1:3 “Blessed” are those who hear it and take to heart”
BT
BT… Greetings!
I have arrived back from the great white northland where I spent two weeks washing my lures.
I see that you have remained trapped in 70CE and are still promoting the idea that everything ended then. That’s too bad. You say we have to take internal Scriptural evidence into consideration to arrive at the truth of the matter, which I fully agree with. But then you ignore the evidence when it’s provided to you. I find that strange.
Going back to what I have agreed with, BT, is that much of what Jesus and His Apostles stated did apply to the first century Christians. But in no way was it the end of matters. I have posted Scriptural evidence that proves beyond question that more is yet ahead.
If I take your findings seriously, BT, then Satan has been abyssed since the first century and has no more influence on humankind. Do you actually see that as so by a serious examination of our world affairs at this time? We have teetered on the brink of nuclear warfare since 1945 when the first atomic bombs were unleashed against Japan. Since that time we have increased the power of these weapons to the point of destroying the very earth, wiping out “all flesh” if one more Hitler decides to push the button.
See what the Scripture tells us:
Matthew 24:21-22 (Darby Translation)
“…for then shall there be great tribulation, such as has not been from [the] beginning of [the] world until now, nor ever shall be; and if those days had not been cut short, no flesh had been saved; but on account of the elect those days shall be cut short.”Now look closely at this passage. You connect this comment by Jesus as relating strictly to the first century because of “if those days had not been cut short” sounding like the event had already taken place. But Jesus was pointing ahead in time because He says “for then there shall be great tribulation such has not been from the beginning of the world until now.” No serious historian would ever consider the destruction of 1st Century Jerusalem as being any worse than the Flood of Noah’s Day or the massive slaughter and destruction of two world wars in our time. And consider this:
Revelation 11:18 (Darby Translation)
“And the nations have been full of wrath, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the recompense to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to those who fear thy name, small and great; and to destroy those that destroy the earth.”Has this event really taken place? You would have us believe that the “earth” spoken of here applied to 1st Century Jerusalem. At a time when the very existence of life on our planet hangs on a nuclear thread, I fail to see your assessment as being plausible.
Sam
Good morning Sam
Quote I see that you have remained trapped in 70CE and are still promoting the idea that everything ended then. That’s too bad. You say we have to take internal Scriptural evidence into consideration to arrive at the truth of the matter, which I fully agree with. But then you ignore the evidence when it’s provided to you. I find that strange The internal evidence provided came from a historian who said Jesus died at the age of 50. But the proof I asked for was internal not external.
Quote Going back to what I have agreed with, BT, is that much of what Jesus and His Apostles stated did apply to the first century Christians. But in no way was it the end of matters. I have posted Scriptural evidence that proves beyond question that more is yet ahead. The only confirmation provided is unfounded information. Taking events from history beyond AD 70 and applied them to scriptures picked out. Then saying we have a better understanding of the prophesied events of Revelation then the Apostles did, because they died long before they come about.
Quote If I take your findings seriously, BT, then Satan has been abyssed since the first century and has no more influence on humankind. Do you actually see that as so by a serious examination of our world affairs at this time? We have teetered on the brink of nuclear warfare since 1945 when the first atomic bombs were unleashed against Japan. Since that time we have increased the power of these weapons to the point of destroying the very earth, wiping out “all flesh” if one more Hitler decides to push the button. I don’t look at the world affairs, or the latest Newspaper article. It only leads to speculation and guesswork when looking for a scripture to fit it. By the way every generation after AD 70 believed as strongly as so many do because of historical events
Quote You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Matthew 24:6 Who is the “you” Jesus is speaking to? Is it us or them? Is our Lord suggesting the end of the world or age? “When will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” The theme of Matthew 24 is the destruction of the temple. “I tell “you” the “truth”, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” Matt 24:2 I tell you the “truth”, “this” “generation” will certainly not pass away until “all” these things have happened. Matt 24:34 Keep in mind Jesus didn’t say “that” generation will see all these things.
Look up the word “this” in a concordance of the New Testament and the words “this generation” and find one speaking of future generation in our day.
Speaking of Satan and the world affairs as we see them could be deceiving. Two men were walking from Jerusalem and Jesus walks alongside saying, what’s up fellows what are you guys talking about? One replies, “Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people. Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem unaware of the things which have happened here these days?” Then the man continues on, “And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. We were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel.”
The reason of this yarn ; they thought the Pharisee won the victory, All they saw was a poor soul hanging from a wooden beam. Nevertheless, the essential thing is not what man sees but Jehovahs. Christ had won the battle in His death. Something people find hard to accept. Luke 24:13-20
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through NASU
Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, NASU
Well got to get some sleep Sam; welcome home let me know your thoughts and well pick up on other scripture you referenced.
BT
BT… Greetings!
I am looking at your last comment:
“The only confirmation provided is unfounded information. Taking events from history beyond AD 70 and applied them to scriptures picked out. Then saying we have a better understanding of the prophesied events of Revelation then the Apostles did, because they died long before they come about.”
As I see things, BT, the “internal evidence” is found within the Scriptures and must be considered with historical events to arrive at the truth. Sometimes I wonder if you are missing this point or simply ignoring it because it doesn’t fit your scenario.
As for our having a better understanding than the Apostles with Jesus had, I believe the Scriptures even suggest that fact. See what the Scriptures tell us:
John 16:12 (New American Standard Bible)
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”Daniel 12:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”Quite obvious, neither the Apostles nor Daniel had a full grasp of what they heard at the time. There was much more to come “until the time of the end.”
How, then, do we get to know the truth of God’s Word? Again, the Scripture explains:
John 16:13 (New American Standard Bible)
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”This statement is true, however, we must be warned that other forces are at work:
1 John 4:1 (New American Standard Bible)
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”These false prophets didn’t arise from pagan nations, BT, but from among the early Christian congregations. See for yourself:
Jude 1:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”1 John 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)
“Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”When you take on the Preterist view, that all things foretold has taken place back in 70CE, you fall into the same situation as some in that very time period. See what took place:
2 Timothy 2:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
“But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.”Now we know for certain, BT, that the resurrection has not taken place yet. We know for certain that Satan has not been abyssed and peace returned to the earth. We know that God’s Will and Kingdom over the earth by His Only begotten Son and His faithful followers has not yet taken place. So, then, these events are yet future. Your insistence that all things have taken place in 70CE is, according to Scripture, “empty chatter.”
Sam
I am looking at your last comment:
“The only confirmation provided is unfounded information. Taking events from history beyond AD 70 and applied them to scriptures picked out. Then saying we have a better understanding of the prophesied events of Revelation then the Apostles did, because they died long before they come about.”
Good Morning Sam
As I see things, BT, the “internal evidence” is found within the Scriptures and must be considered with historical events to arrive at the truth. Sometimes I wonder if you are missing this point or simply ignoring it because it doesn’t fit your scenario.
My question was concerning the internal Scriptural evidence proving Revelation was penned in the AD 90’s, something you unsuccessfully provided. The challenge is go back to previous posts and pull in one scriptural reference so we can put it on the table and examine it.
As for our having a better understanding than the Apostles with Jesus had, I believe the Scriptures even suggest that fact. See what the Scriptures tell us:
John 16:12 (New American Standard Bible)
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”Daniel 12:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”I’m not sure if you’re actuality reading my comments. Jesus was talking about Pentecost and Daniel was written some 400 years before the Apostle lived. I believe you alleged we know more than the Apostle did before Revelation was completed, because we are witnessing prophesies John the Apostle penned. And Jesus stated in Matthew 24 So the question remains open do we discern more than the Apostles knew before they died regarding fulfilled Prophesy.
I’m pleased you referenced Daniel 12 trying to confirm that our understanding of the scripture is greater then the Apostles because we are living in the time of the end.
This brings us to put side by side two scriptures you perhaps will call “empty chatter.”
Dan 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Rev 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
Can God tell time!
Daniel is told by an angel to seal up the book because the time is a long way off. John is told by an angel not to seal up the book because the time is near. Daniel told far off, John told near. Wait a minute: Sam says even though the bible says near a thousand years is like a day in God’s time.
Quite obvious, neither the Apostles nor Daniel had a full grasp of what they heard at the time. There was much more to come “until the time of the end.”
How, then, do we get to know the truth of God’s Word? Again, the Scripture explains:
John 16:13 (New American Standard Bible)
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”Sam there is nothing we can add or take away from the Gospel message. The reason you’re getting confused is because when Daniel said the time of the end, you supposed it in our future when in truth God intended the end of the age in AD 70.
Drop down from Daniel 12:4 to 12:7 Daniel was told that all previously quoted would be completed when the power of the holy people were shattered. This shattering or scattering took place in AD 70. The holy people spoken of were the Jewish people in a covenantal relationship with God.
Dan 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the “holy people”, “all these events” will be “completed”. NASU
These false prophets didn’t arise from pagan nations, BT, but from among the early Christian congregations. See for yourself:
Jude 1:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”1 John 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)
“Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”I agree this was happening to the early Christians prior to AD 70, but why did John say it was the last hour. What was so close in view ready to happen?
When you take on the Preterist view, that all things foretold has taken place back in 70CE, you fall into the same situation as some in that very time period. See what took place:
Again the assumption is I believe “at this time” all things took place in AD 70. No, not all things but the ones mentioned in Matthew 24:1-34 and crossed Referenced in Mark and Luke. Also much penned in the book of Revelation and others in New Testament books. All I am Sam is a student of the bible still learning and I do so from people like you who challenge what I believe at the moment. To me you’re a brother farmer planting seeds which God can only make grow. Hopefully you could say the same. Keep up the good work and let the truth win out.
Rom 1:12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. NASU
Let me know your thoughts
BT
Good Morning Sam
Quote As I see things, BT, the “internal evidence” is found within the Scriptures and must be considered with historical events to arrive at the truth. Sometimes I wonder if you are missing this point or simply ignoring it because it doesn’t fit your scenario. My question was concerning the internal Scriptural evidence proving Revelation was penned in the AD 90’s, something you unsuccessfully provided. The challenge is go back to previous posts and pull in one scriptural reference so we can put it on the table and examine it.
Quote As for our having a better understanding than the Apostles with Jesus had, I believe the Scriptures even suggest that fact. See what the Scriptures tell us: John 16:12 (New American Standard Bible)
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”Daniel 12:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”I’m not sure if you’re reading my comments. Jesus was talking about Pentecost and Daniel was written some 400 years before the Apostle lived. You alleged we know more than the Apostle did before Revelation was completed, because we witnessing prophesies John the Apostle penned. So the question remains open do we understand more than the Apostles knew before they died regarding fulfilled Prophesy.
I’m pleased you referenced Daniel 12 and by doing so your trying to confirm our understanding of the scripture is greater then the Apostles because we are living in the time of the end. Quote me if I'm wrong!
Let's put two scriptures side by side on the table and look at them in reference of the end of time.
Dan 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Rev 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
Can God tell time!
Daniel is told by an angel to seal up the book because the time is a long way off. John is told by an angel not to seal up the book because the time is near. Daniel told far off, John told near. Wait a minute: Sam says even though the bible says near, a thousand years is like a day in God’s time.
Quote Quite obvious, neither the Apostles nor Daniel had a full grasp of what they heard at the time. There was much more to come “until the time of the end.” How, then, do we get to know the truth of God’s Word? Again, the Scripture explains:
John 16:13 (New American Standard Bible)
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”Sam there is nothing we can add or take away from the Gospel message. The reason you’re getting confused is because when Daniel said the time of the end, you supposed it in our future when in truth God intended the end of the age in AD 70.
Drop down from Daniel 12:4 to 12:7 Daniel was told that all previously quoted would be completed when the power of the holy people were shattered. This shattering or scattering took place in AD 70. The holy people spoken of were the Jewish people in a covenantal relationship with God.
Dan 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the “holy people”, “all these events” will be “completed”. NASU
These false prophets didn’t arise from pagan nations, BT, but from among the early Christian congregations. See for yourself:
Quote Jude 1:4 (New American Standard Bible)
“For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”1 John 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)
“Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”I agree this was happening to the early Christians prior to AD 70, but why did John say it was the last hour. What was so close in view ready to happen?
Quote When you take on the Preterist view, that all things foretold has taken place back in 70CE, you fall into the same situation as some in that very time period. See what took place: Again the assumption is I believe all things took place in AD 70. No, not all things just the ones mentioned in Matthew 24:1-34 and crossed Referenced in Mark and Luke. Also much penned in the Revelation and others penned in the New Testament.
I'm just bible student still learning from brothers like you challenging my belief at the moment. To me you’re a farmer planting seeds which only God can make grow. Hopefully you could say the same. Keep up the good work and let the truth win out.
Rom 1:12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine. NASU
Let me know your thoughts
BT
BT… Greetings!
Sorry for the delay getting back to you, but it seems that I am working from dawn to dusk around the farm these days; there’s so much to do and so little time left to do it. Winter is sneaking up on us; even the leaves are hinting at an early arrival.
Anyway, BT, let’s look at your question:
“My question was concerning the internal Scriptural evidence proving Revelation was penned in the AD 90’s.”
As I have previously admitted, much of the first few chapters of Revelation are directed at the “seven churches” that were in existence in the first Century; however, the rest pertained to the future.
The Apostle John did not date the time factor of his writing the account, and as far as I know, early Christian writers had a better idea of when and where John wrote this account than anyone today; they likely passed that information down the line and supposedly that’s how the time frame of the late 90s came about. But I have to depend on other researchers seeing that I wasn’t there at the time.
Examining the Scriptures carefully, however, can assist us in viewing ahead into the future if we let the Spirit guide us. So let’s look at what you have presented as evidence to place the events of Revelation being concluded in 70CE:
“Dan 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the “holy people”, “all these events” will be “completed”. NASU”
You are assuming here that 1st Century Jerusalem was considered by God as a nation of “holy people.” Not at all so! If it was, God would never have brought the Roman Army against Jerusalem but, instead, would have protected His own. What did Jesus say about Jerusalem:
Luke 13:34-35 (New American Standard Bible)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”They were anything but “holy” and according to Jesus’ words above, were about to lose their “house” (referring to Jerusalem, occupants and temple).
Now reason on this statement further. Can you envision the citizens of Jerusalem saying “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” while the city was being invaded by the Roman Army and the people there being slaughtered by sword? Does this statement by Jesus, then, not obviously point into the future?
Let me know your thoughts.
Sam
Good Morning Sam
Quote Anyway, BT, let’s look at your question: “My question was concerning the internal Scriptural evidence proving Revelation was penned in the AD 90’s.”
As I have previously admitted, much of the first few chapters of Revelation are directed at the “seven churches” that were in existence in the first Century; however, the rest pertained to the future.
The Apostle John did not date the time factor of his writing the account, and as far as I know, early Christian writers had a better idea of when and where John wrote this account than anyone today; they likely passed that information down the line and supposedly that’s how the time frame of the late 90s came about. But I have to depend on other researchers seeing that I wasn’t there at the time.
Examining the Scriptures carefully, however, can assist us in viewing ahead into the future if we let the Spirit guide us. So let’s look at what you have presented as evidence to place the events of Revelation being concluded in 70CE:
“Dan 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the “holy people”, “all these events” will be “completed”. NASU”
You are assuming here that 1st Century Jerusalem was considered by God as a nation of “holy people.” Not at all so! If it was, God would never have brought the Roman Army against Jerusalem but, instead, would have protected His own. What did Jesus say about Jerusalem:
The expression Holy People in the bible always referred to Jerusalem as did the Holy City, until the Lord divorced her by stoning in AD 70 inside the temple wrapping up the end of her covenantal arrangement. Old Jerusalem was not called Holy because she followed God’s laws, but for her relationship no other Nation had. Ex. 19:5, 6
Quote Luke 13:34-35 (New American Standard Bible)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”They were anything but “holy” and according to Jesus’ words above, were about to lose their “house” (referring to Jerusalem, occupants and temple).
Now reason on this statement further. Can you envision the citizens of Jerusalem saying “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!” while the city was being invaded by the Roman Army and the people there being slaughtered by sword? Does this statement by Jesus, then, not obviously point into the future?
Barnes gives a kind of a statement on the scripture, although he ends it with a future fulfillment after AD 70. “It goes as follows: The day of your mercy is gone by. I have offered you protection and salvation, and you have rejected it. You are about to crucify me, and your temple to be destroyed, and you, as a nation, to be given up to long and dreadful suffering. You will not see me as a merciful Saviour, offering you redemption any more, until you have borne these heavy judgments.”
There is no doubt Matthew 23:39 presents a temporal indicator of a future time when she will say on individual bases, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, and not while the Romans armies were bombing the temple with stones.
Matt 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”
Psalms 118 was called a Song of Ascent that was sung throughout the feasts, holy days, to the pilgrims coming to temple. Jesus was speaking nothing but the condemnation upon Israel and this could have been a time statement of His coming in judgment upon the temple. And could have easily been the reason for the disciple question as to His coming. Matt. 24:3 Just some food for thought as the saying goes.
Nevertheless, the scripture doesn’t say they would all say “blessed is he.” I believe this is the last time Jesus communicated with the Jewish leaders. So with uncertainties on my part Jesus meant his statement before the destruction of the temple and not while it’s stones were unearthed stone by stone. Sam great question and not the last word on the subject matter.
Keep the place warm it’s going to be a cold winter and let me know your thoughts on the topic.
BT
BT… Greetings!
I think we have whipped this topic to death and we should move on to new topics. Those that hold on to the Preteristic view will continue to do so regardless of evidence that contradicts. Likewise, Trinitarians refuse to budge on their belief that God and Jesus are co-equal and co-eternal. And as I have said many times before, the Scriptures are personal to the reader and conclusions vary considerably. So… onward we go. We are encouraged to reason over the Scriptures, digging deeper in the word of God like searching for silver and gold, then sharing our findings with fellow believers. This we should do, and God willing, we will.
God bless!
Sam
To All
The letter of Revelation was written to real people living in the day it was penned. So who was this monster of the day who was know by some of his contemporizes as a beast, because of his beastly qualities.
The only one I believe who fits the bill when specially speaking is none other than “Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (15 December 37 – 9 June 68),[1] born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, also called Nero Claudius Caesar Drusus Germanicus, was the fifth and final Roman emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty..”
When corporately speaking the beast is the Old Roman Empire!
BT
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