The arian dissenters

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 07 2010,10:18)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 03 2010,02:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2010,13:00) Hi TT, From WHOM did the lamb RECEIVE such things? The lesser is blessed by the greater[Heb7] So much for your trinity theory. It says that the Lamb is WORTHY Nick. God gave Jesus what was due Him and you should do no less. What about the word “WORTHY” in reference to the Lamb do you not understand? You are a dissenter Nick. thinker Quote It says that the Lamb is WORTHY Nick. God GAVE Jesus what was due Him and you should do no less. So G-d gives Himself what is due to Himself, why would G-d give Himself something He already has? Another mystery?

And what does that prove?

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever”. Rev 5:11-13

The Father receives those things also, yet we know that the Father has all things just as Jesus has all things for they are One! You guys don't get it?

All things were made by him (Jesus) and for him, which means that everything that is given returns back to him and the Father!

“Jesus is not included with those that are giving here” but he is the recipient of all Honor, Glory, Power etc..

This should cause a light to come on in your heads!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Constitutionalist said:

Quote

So G-d gives Himself what is due to Himself, why would G-d give Himself something He already has? Another mystery?

The song goes:

“Oz never did give nothin to the Tin Man,

That he didn't, didn't already have”

God gave self existence to Jesus. If “gave” means imparted, then self-existence cannot be self existence.

“for, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself” John 5:26

You chew on that for a while. I take it to mean that the Father ascribes self existence to the Son for it cannot be imparted and still be self-existence

“Before Abraham was I AM”

The Father “gave” self existence to Jesus in the way the Psalms tell us to “give” power and strength to God. We do not impart power and strength to God. We ascribe to Him what is DUE Him.

This one is quite a conundrum for you. You must acknowledge that Christ possesses self-existence because the Father gave it to Him. If He has self existence then He is God. Yet if you take this to mean that self existence was imparted to Christ then you deny it is self existence AS the Father Himself possesses it.

Or you can just obey and admit that the Father gave self existence to Christ in the manner that Oz gave the Tin Man a heart.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,11:12)

Constitutionalist said: Quote So G-d gives Himself what is due to Himself, why would G-d give Himself something He already has? Another mystery? The song goes: “Oz never did give nothin to the Tin Man, That he didn't, didn't already have” God gave self existence to Jesus. If “gave” means imparted, then self-existence cannot be self existence. “for, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself” John 5:26 You chew on that for a while. I take it to mean that the Father ascribes self existence to the Son for it cannot be imparted and still be self-existence “Before Abraham was I AM” The Father “gave” self existence to Jesus in the way the Psalms tell us to “give” power and strength to God. We do not impart power and strength to God. We ascribe to Him what is DUE Him. This one is quite a conundrum for you. You must acknowledge that Christ possesses self-existence because the Father gave it to Him. If He has self existence then He is God. Yet if you take this to mean that self existence was imparted to Christ then you deny it is self existence AS the Father Himself possesses it. Or you can just obey and admit that the Father gave self existence to Christ in the manner that Oz gave the Tin Man a heart. thinker

Jack

Again, good points!

Jesus has “Life in himself” just as the Father has “Life in himself”.

I wonder what Gene says to this being that he still sees Jesus as some puppet on a string which cannot do anything, but it is only the Father in him that does the works?

I am beginning to see why they call you “thethinker”.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Get the quote accurate,
John5
26
“For just as the father has life in Himself, even so HE GAVE TO THE SON also to have life in himself.'

The Greater blessed the lesser.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2010,05:42)

Hi WJ, Get the quote accurate, John5 26 “For just as the father has life in Himself, even so HE GAVE TO THE SON also to have life in himself.' The Greater blessed the lesser.

That's what we said. God gave self existence to the Son. God's people “give” to God power and strength.”

“All ye peoples, give unto the Lord glory and strength.”

Did not God possess these attributes before His people “gave” them to Him?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You mean ASCRIBE?

God does not need men.
God blesses all His servants with what they need to work for Him.

But none of His servants become Him by being blessed by Him..

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2010,07:19)

Hi TT, You mean ASCRIBE? God does not need men. God blesses all His servants with what they need to work for Him. But none of His servants become Him by being blessed by Him..

So when the Psalms say to “give the Lord power and strength” you will refuse to do it because God doesn't need you?

Anyway, you are creating a diversion Nick. Jesus said that He possesses self existence as the Father possesses it. If He possesses self existence as the Father possesses it, then He is God:

“Before Abraham was I AM.”

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You think you can give powers and strength to God??
Go for it.

Jesus was GIVEN to have life in Himself so that life was not His originally.
It was GIVEN by his God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 07 2010,18:48)

Hi TT, You think you can give powers and strength to God?? Go for it. Jesus was GIVEN to have life in Himself so that life was not His originally. It was GIVEN by his God.

NH

YadaYadaYada!

The point is “Jesus has self existing life” none other has that now or ever!

WJ

[942767]

Hi WJ and the thethinker:

And so, what is your definition of self existence?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,20:00)

Hi WJ and the thethinker: And so, what is your definition of self existence? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

It means that God is the source of all things and has no need for a source.

By him Jesus “All things consist” and all things are upheld by the word of his power! Col 1:17, Heb 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Rom 11:36

Jesus is the source of our salvation, our life, our faith and all that we shall ever have or be.

Why because there is no difference in the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in nature. Heb 1:3

Same essence, substance or what makes the eternal, and infinite God, God!

Everything that the Father is or has Jesus and the Holy Spirit are! IMO

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,12:47)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,20:00) Hi WJ and the thethinker: And so, what is your definition of self existence? Love in Christ, Marty Marty It means that God is the source of all things and has no need for a source. By him Jesus “All things consist” and all things are upheld by the word of his power! Col 1:17, Heb 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Rom 11:36 Jesus is the source of our salvation, our life, our faith and all that we shall ever have or be. Why because there is no difference in the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in nature. Heb 1:3 Same essence, substance or what makes the eternal, and infinite God, God! Everything that the Father is or has Jesus and the Holy Spirit are! IMO WJ

Hi WJ:

But God is the source of all things, and Jesus is not speaking of self-existence. Here are these scriptures in context.

Quote

Jhn 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

If you focus on verse 24, you will see what he is saying. And here he says my word, but we have already shown:

Quote

Jhn 12:47And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, [fn] I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him–the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 12:50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

And no, he is not a puppet, he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,21:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,12:47) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,20:00) Hi WJ and the thethinker: And so, what is your definition of self existence? Love in Christ, Marty Marty It means that God is the source of all things and has no need for a source. By him Jesus “All things consist” and all things are upheld by the word of his power! Col 1:17, Heb 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Rom 11:36 Jesus is the source of our salvation, our life, our faith and all that we shall ever have or be. Why because there is no difference in the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in nature. Heb 1:3 Same essence, substance or what makes the eternal, and infinite God, God! Everything that the Father is or has Jesus and the Holy Spirit are! IMO WJ Hi WJ: But God is the source of all things, and Jesus is not speaking of self-existence.  Here are these scriptures in context. Quote Jhn 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. If you focus on verse 24, you will see what he is saying.  And here he says my word, but we have already shown: Quote Jhn 12:47And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, [fn] I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him–the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 12:50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” And no, he is not a puppet, he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Verse 24 does not negate verse 26!

Jesus also says that we are to believe in him to have eternal life. That is the whole point, they are one and you cannot have one without the other!

WJ

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,13:30)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,21:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,12:47) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,20:00) Hi WJ and the thethinker: And so, what is your definition of self existence? Love in Christ, Marty Marty It means that God is the source of all things and has no need for a source. By him Jesus “All things consist” and all things are upheld by the word of his power! Col 1:17, Heb 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Rom 11:36 Jesus is the source of our salvation, our life, our faith and all that we shall ever have or be. Why because there is no difference in the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in nature. Heb 1:3 Same essence, substance or what makes the eternal, and infinite God, God! Everything that the Father is or has Jesus and the Holy Spirit are! IMO WJ Hi WJ: But God is the source of all things, and Jesus is not speaking of self-existence.  Here are these scriptures in context. Quote Jhn 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. If you focus on verse 24, you will see what he is saying.  And here he says my word, but we have already shown: Quote Jhn 12:47And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, [fn] I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him–the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 12:50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” And no, he is not a puppet, he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Verse 24 does not negate verse 26! Jesus also says that we are to believe in him to have eternal life. That is the whole point, they are one and you cannot have one without the other! WJ

Hi WJ:

Yes, brother Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man can come to the Father but by him. That is the Word of God.

But he is not God. There is only “ONE God”, he is the Christ, the Son of the living God. He is the last Adam, or man, who is the express image of God's person.

It was God's plan to make man in His own image, and so Jesus said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.

And the Holy Spirit is God's personal presence dwelling within all who have been born again. The Spirit of our Father, is not a “third person of some tri-une God”.

My point in asking you to focus on verse 24 is that the verse explains that Jesus is not speaking of self-existence, but about eternal life through his Word.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Marty

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,21:45)

The Spirit of our Father, is not a “third person of some tri-une God”

.
How about the Spirit of the Son, is he the personal Spirit of the Father?

How about the Spirit that takes from Jesus and gives to us, or the one that Jesus calls “another” that Jesus sent, or the one who only speaks what he hears, is that the personal Spirit of the Father?

Even so your statement is false when you say the Spirit is not a person or just Gods presence!

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Paul disagrees with you doesn't he Marty?

But what does this have to do with Jesus being “self-existent”.

The name Jehovah means “The self existent one”.

Jesus name means “YHWH is salvation”.

And Jesus is given the name “Immanuel” which means “God with us” And Isaiah prophesied that he would be called “The mighty God (el gibbowr) and John said he is the Word that was with God and was God and Thomas called him his Lord and God and Paul called him his “Great God and Savour” and Peter called him his God and Savour and Jude said he was his “Only Master and Lord” and that he was the Lord that saved the children of Israel out of Egypt!

Now take that into consideration with the fact that Jesus has the Title “Lord of Lords and King of Kings” and that he is the “Alpha and Omega” and that he has all Authority and Power and that he at this time is not subject to the Father,  (1 Cor 15) and that he is sitting in the throne with the Father recieving the same praise as the Father and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jesus is God in the flesh, One with the Father and the Holy Spirit!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God in Christ and shared with those in the body of Christ uniting all in Christ to God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2010,02:00)

Hi WJ, The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God in Christ and shared with those in the body of Christ uniting all in Christ to God.

NH

There is One Spirit Nick!

Yea Ok! We have been here before and it is getting off topic.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
As I said.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 08 2010,12:00)

Hi WJ and the thethinker: And so, what is your definition of self existence? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

Come on!

thinker

[Ed J]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 08 2010,03:12)

“Before Abraham was I AM.” thinker

Hi Thinker,

Nahum 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee,
that no more of thy ('i am') name be sown: out of the house of thy gods
will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I (YHVH) will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live…

Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood † of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

Isaiah 44:19-20 …shall I make the residue thereof an abomination?
shall I fall down to † the stock of a tree? He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart
hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?
Jer.2:27 Saying to [the stock † of a tree], Thou art my father; and to a stone(evolution),
Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face:
but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.

2Thess.2:4 Who(satan) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is “called God”=63(YHVH=63),
or that is worshipped; so that he as ('i am')God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he(satan) is God.

Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man(Deut.4:16),
and to birds(satanic rapture doctrines), and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,
to dishonor their own bodies between themselves (prideful WJ and Thinker):
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature(Jesus)
more than the Creator(YHVH), who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Jer.2:11-13Hath a nation changed their gods (to a vile I am abomination), which are yet no gods?
but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished,
O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me(YHVH) the fountain of living waters,
and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water (Isaiah 30:13-14).

Deut.32:39-41 See now that I, even I, he, and there is no ('i am'=23)god with me(YHVH: Isaiah 43:11): I kill (2Thess.2:3),
and I make(Jesus) alive(Gal.1:1); I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand (John 10:29).
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. If I whet my glittering sword (Rev.19:15-16),
and mine hand take hold on judgment (Isaiah 27:4-5); I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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