The arian dissenters

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

YOU fail to see the forest because of all the trees, dump your 600 scholars and rely on GOD to reveal His the truth to you.

Thank you Gene! You said that it is God who reveals truth. Jesus reveals truth. Therefore, Jesus is God.

” All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” Matthew 11:27

Major premise: God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals truth
Conclusion: The Son is God

Thanks Gene buddy.

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 5:44 pm#167499

Participant

Hi TT,
What facile logic.

Wake up.

December 31, 2009 at 5:54 pm#167501

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,04:44)

Hi TT,
What facile logic.

Wake up.

Refute my logic Nick.

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 5:56 pm#167502

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 31 2009,11:47)

hi WJ
you are back to promote your view on trinity ,it does not exist ,show us that your mystery of the trinity is there from the beginning of creation,and that the mystery of the trinity is no mystery at all,and then explain all scriptures that prove other wise ,it seems you always avoid this.

until you do you are kicking a dead horse please excuse my expression.

And you are back to you empty statements. You are sounding like NH!

Rather than refute my points you just claim “the Trinity does not exist”!

Matt 28:19 says a Trinity does exist!

Now do this…

Close your eyes and put your feet together and tap your heals three times saying “there is no Trinity” “there is not Trinity” “there is no Trinity” and see if the Trinitarian view will dissapear!

December 31, 2009 at 5:59 pm#167503

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,12:38)

Gene said:

Quote

YOU fail to see the forest because of all the trees, dump your 600 scholars and rely on GOD to reveal His the truth to you.

Thank you Gene! You said that it is God who reveals truth. Jesus reveals truth. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Major premise: God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals truth
Conclusion: The Son is God

Thanks Gene buddy.

thinker

Jack

Exactly! Imagine that, the Father can only be known if Jesus “wills” to reveal him to whoever he wants!

Sounds like equality to me!

December 31, 2009 at 6:23 pm#167505

Participant

WorshippingJesus said to terraricca:

Quote

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 6:26 pm#167506

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,03:24)

Gene said:

Quote

Thinker………I worship the FATHER (ONLY) as the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, as Jesus said, YOU on the other hand worship Three MYSTERIOUS FORMS of GOD. The GOD I worship is SPIRIT and Has NEVER Been FLESH. He lives vicariously through His creation His spirit is in all things that has Life in them. He operates through the MINDS of HIS Childern and that includes Jesus and all who Have His Spirit in them. NO TRIUNE ANYTHING, ALL WHO TEACH AND PREACH THE TRINITY ARE (IDOLATERS) and false teachers.;

TO ALL:

Gene claims that he worships the Father only. But the whole creation worships the Father and the Son:

“And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

'Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!' “

Gene and others here pride themselves that they are dissenters from the Catholic Church. But in reality they dissent from the rest of creation which worships both the Father and the Son. While the rest of creation worships in God's way Gene and others decide for themselves how they will worship God. This is what dissenters do. They go their own way.

thinker

I want to take this from the top! The beginning discussion on this thread started with

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Let’s start by taking it back to Verse 12,

12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

The LAMB is the human being that was PERFECTED through suffering and was raised from the dead with his own flesh and bones, because the Father would not allow his Holy One to see corruption.

The LAMB was the human being who BECAME worthy of RECEIVING power, riches and wisdom because he was a man who denied his own will, not following after the flesh, and instead fully followed the Spirit of the Father that was in him.

I do not DENY the honor and glory of which the LAMB was worthy to RECEIVE, through being the man who died and was raised from the dead. What I and others deny is that the LAMB is the One True God, for the bible blatantly tells us that he is NOT.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

A god was not perfected. A god son was not perfected. Jesus, the human being was perfected THROUGH the anointing of the Father's Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered ; 9 And being made perfect , he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus was NOT the One True God he CAME FROM the One True and was MADE through the One True God our Master and Christ.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was GIVEN the throne…WHO'S throne?…..the Father's throne!

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

We honor the LAMB because He honored God. We honor the LAMB because he was the MAN who did not serve his own flesh or follow his own doctrine, but instead he followed the Father's doctrine.

Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Can you tell me WHY Thinker you HONOR the LAMB? I honor him because he lives NOT for himself but he lives FOR the One True God.

Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Thinker you seem to ignore the entire content of the scriptures, I will give these again,

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 7:28 Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, “You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.

Jesus NEVER tells us to worship him as the One True God, he makes it a point to tell us that he is NOT the One True God, and that the Father’s honor is far and above his. The One True God did not send Himself, He sent us a human savior. The One True God wants us to believe that Jesus is the Human Savior, so that we may have confidence in the One True God in that He keeps His promises.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they
may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Thinker your blindness is truly unbelievable.

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other godsbefore Me.

Both the Father and the LAMB are to be honored and given glory but NOT because they are BOTH the One True God. We shall have no other Gods BEFORE the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

The Father is the One True God and the LAMB is the human being that was MADE our Master. Jesus was appointed, he inherited, he was given the throne of His Father’s, until he destroys the last enemy, then he will give the throne back to his Father.

We are commanded to HONOR our Father and Mother, because they have authority and wisdom over us. The Father APPOINTED the LAMB above our Father and Mother, we can honor all three but we honor the LAMB MORE, because he was MADE and appointed to be master above all other masters. However we shall honor NO ONE ABOVE YHVH our Heavenly Father.

Does the Father APPOINT the LAMB to be master OVER the Father?…No that is absurd. The Lamb is the master above all creation, but NEVER above the Creator. The LAMB is APPOINTED and RECEIVES power and wisdom so he can carry out the Father's WILL.

December 31, 2009 at 6:28 pm#167507

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,05:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 30 2009,05:40)

Hi TT,
God's way does not include man's derived trinity.
That insults Him.

God's way includes worshiping the Son with the Father as shown in the OP. All creation submits except the Arain dissenters.

thinker

We worship the son as the LAMB, the human being that died for our sins of which the Father MADE to be our Master and our Christ.

We worship the Father as the One True God!

December 31, 2009 at 6:30 pm#167508

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2010,04:59)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,12:38)

Gene said:

Quote

YOU fail to see the forest because of all the trees, dump your 600 scholars and rely on GOD to reveal His the truth to you.

Thank you Gene! You said that it is God who reveals truth. Jesus reveals truth. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Major premise: God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals truth
Conclusion: The Son is God

Thanks Gene buddy.

thinker

Jack

Exactly! Imagine that, the Father can only be known if Jesus “wills” to reveal him to whoever he wants!

Sounds like equality to me!

Hi WJ,
Equality between how many gods?
You still do not know the God of Israel Jesus revealed?

December 31, 2009 at 6:30 pm#167509

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2010,04:59)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,12:38)

Gene said:

Quote

YOU fail to see the forest because of all the trees, dump your 600 scholars and rely on GOD to reveal His the truth to you.

Thank you Gene! You said that it is God who reveals truth. Jesus reveals truth. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Major premise: God reveals truth
Minor premise: The Son reveals truth
Conclusion: The Son is God

Thanks Gene buddy.

thinker

Jack

Exactly! Imagine that, the Father can only be known if Jesus “wills” to reveal him to whoever he wants!

Sounds like equality to me!

Keith,
The Arain dissenters do not appreciate Christ's role in their salvation. From His suffering and death as servant to His sovereign grace as Lord they deny their “only Master and Lord.” It was Jesus who revealed the Father to Gene and he thanks Jesus by kicking Him in the teeth. Maybe Jesus did not reveal the Father to Gene after all.

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 6:32 pm#167510

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 01 2010,04:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,04:44)

Hi TT,
What facile logic.

Wake up.

Refute my logic Nick.

thinker

Hi TT,
You would dare to offer such weak logic as a basis of teaching about the God Who created you and in whose hands your future lies?

December 31, 2009 at 6:37 pm#167512

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,05:32)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 01 2010,04:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,04:44)

Hi TT,
What facile logic.

Wake up.

Refute my logic Nick.

thinker

Hi TT,
You would dare to offer such weak logic as a basis of teaching about the God Who created you and in whose hands your future lies?

Nick,
Did Jesus reveal the Father to you or not? Was it His sovereign choice or not?

Why do you dissent from the rest of creation that counts the Lamb worthy to be worshiped with the Father (Rev. 5:13)? Why do you count yourself among the dissenters Nick? Come out from among the dissenters and join the rest of creation which worships the Father and the Lamb.

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 6:50 pm#167517

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 30 2009,10:36)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 29 2009,18:28)

WJ………..TO simplify this JUST SHOW US A SINGLE SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS EVER SAID HE WAS GOD. My Bible says He was going to His FATHER and OUR FATHER, HIS GOD and OUR GOD, interestingly He seem to forgot to includes his self as a GOD in that Statement, And When Jesus was Praying to HIS GOD and OUR GOD, He said FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. So tell us who you TRINITARIANS can just ignore those as if the do not exist in you own bibles. AMAZING< the degree of disillusionment, that you can't even understand simple straight forward scriptures , but just continue to deny they even exist in your bibles. Truly Amazing

Gene

You didn't as usuall address my points but instead continue with your pre-ressurection claims.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7

Do you see it Gene?

He didn't say Thomas should have known God in him or henceforth he knows God in him or he has seen God in him, did he? Now couple this with the Apostles personally calling him God and you have your proof!

Gene is my points in scripture or not! Why do you not answer them?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

and why is this, because Jesus IS the One True God as the Father is? NO, that is NOT as ALL what the scriptures say.

We see God through Jesus not because Jesus IS God but because he is his HUMAN mediator, he is God's representative, revealing not his OWN truth or his OWN doctrine but his Father's.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 5:19 What he seeth the Father do

John 8:28 As the Father hath taught me

We see in Jesus the Father because Jesus learns from the Father and he does that which he sees the Father do.

We do not see in Jesus the Father because they are BOTH the one true God.

Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

Jesus is still receiving WISDOM from the One True God, for he was found WORTHY.

December 31, 2009 at 7:11 pm#167520

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,05:32)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 01 2010,04:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,04:44)

Hi TT,
What facile logic.

Wake up.

Refute my logic Nick.

thinker

Hi TT,
You would dare to offer such weak logic as a basis of teaching about the God Who created you and in whose hands your future lies?

Hi TT,
Shall we compare similar quality logic?

The sun gives light.
This match gives light.
Therefore this match is the sun.

Is this what you aspire to?

December 31, 2009 at 7:15 pm#167521

Participant

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

We see God through Jesus not because Jesus IS God but because he is his HUMAN mediator, he is God's representative, revealing not his OWN truth or his OWN doctrine but his Father's.

Jodi Lee,

Please note that part of your statement I highlighted in bold. We have been over this before. Your assertion that truth was not Christ's own was true in the days of His humiliation but is not true in His exalted state.

Jesus anticipated the time when in His exalted state all truth would be His own as it is the Father's.

Quote

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Now there it is! You even conceded to this once. So what gives with your reverting back to your errors? It was only in the days of His humiliation that truth was not His own. But He is exalted now and all that is the Father's, namely truth, is equally His own.

Stop telling your half truths here. A half truth is a falsehood. The whole truth is that Jesus was exalted and truth is now His to dispense according to His own sovereign will. This means that He is God or in the least He is God representatively.

“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Did the Son reveal the Father to you according to His own will or not? If you say yes then He is in the least God representatively. If you say no then you are a liar.

You are a dissenter Jodi. The whole creation worships the Father and the Lamb. Why do you dissent?

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 7:18 pm#167522

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,11:33)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 30 2009,11:06)

thinker……The elementary teachings of or (ABOUT)Christ has nothing to do with the Old Testament, it has to do with the fundamental or basic teachings about Jesus, (him dying for our sins and raising from the dead and etc) But you trinitarians cant understand that so you try to push the Old Testament away, as if its teachings were not relevant, But interestingly the Beraens did not think that way and Paul commended them as being more Noble then those in Thesolnica because they searched the Scriptures (old Testament) to see if these things were so or not. Is there no end to you Trinitarian tricks to twist the plain words of GOD? YOU WHO PREACH Jesus as a GOD , go read 2 Ths 2 and see what happens to those who have turned the IMAGE of the man Jesus into the Man of SIN by preaching a LIE, and that LIE is that Jesus is GOD, and Jesus will abolished it at His return by His very own Mouth, as It say He will. Then that LIE will never again be taught and that LIE (IS) the JESUS IS A GOD. That should cause you and WJ some very deep concern thinker. IMO

Gene,
It does not say the “elementary teachings ABOUT Christ.” It refers to the elementary teachings that Christ Himself taught with faith in God being one of those teachings. We are supposed to leave Christ's elementary teachings concerning faith in God.

Christ taught a faith in God which was more in accord with Moses and the old covenant. The apostles cancelled many of Christ's teachings. It was Christ's work to give them the foundational teachings. It was the work of the apostles to move them on to perfection. This included moving them to faith in Christ:

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John explicitly said that the purpose of his writing was to move them to faith in the Son of God. Uh, Gene, faith in the Son of God is a form of worship my friend.

Get out of the old covenant! You are not an old covenant Israelite under Deuteronomy 6:4. You are supposed to have faith in the Father and the Son now. Faith is a form of worship.

You are a dissenter Gene!

thinker

Christ taught for us to have Faith in the Father. Christ taught that he was the Christ, the human anointed with the Holy Spirit.

The writers of the New testament as well taught the SAME thing. They teach that we are to have FAITH that Jesus is in fact the human savior YHVH had promised He would send.

Even to the end in Revelation we see that Jesus is still identified as our anointed human being… one STILL needing to receive from the Father WISDOM and Truth.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Revelation 5:12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

Jesus to the end of scripture still wants us to see him in the light of him being a HUMAN BEING still with the GENES of David.

Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

December 31, 2009 at 7:24 pm#167523

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,06:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,05:32)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 01 2010,04:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2010,04:44)

Hi TT,
What facile logic.

Wake up.

Refute my logic Nick.

thinker

Hi TT,
You would dare to offer such weak logic as a basis of teaching about the God Who created you and in whose hands your future lies?

Hi TT,
Shall we compare similar quality logic?

The sun gives light.
This match gives light.
Therefore this match is the sun.

Is this what you aspire to?

Paul said:

“11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Paul received gospel truth not by man but by Jesus Christ. You knew I would reply this way. Why did you bother?

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 7:50 pm#167526

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,09:28)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Dec. 31 2009,05:28)

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,10:37)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 30 2009,10:09)

thinker……Why not worship who Jesus said to worship and who He worshiped, GOD the FATHER ONLY. Unless you believe Jesus went to himself and worshiped Himself. The Trinity is not only a FALSE teaching it is Blasphemous, to the SPIRIT. Where did Jesus ever say He was a GOD? or where did he ever say (HE) Created everything. Or Where did He ever say to worship HIM. Surely if He were a GOD he would have required it of US. The closest he came to say any thing was that were should Honor the Son even as we HONOR the FATHER. HONOR Means (RESPECT HIM) not WORSHIP HIM. Even when we Honor in submission it is the the GLORY of the FATHER, NOT HIM. GOD the FATHER has said we Should not worship any other GOD as a GOD, but HIM ALONE and He Told Us there Is NO OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM> What part of that, you trinitarians cant stand to Believe. But you brazen Trinitarians think you can trample under foot GOD'S Direct Commandments to US, and CREATE another GOD, When HE (PLAINLY) SAYS THERE IS (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM ALONE. ARE you deaf to scripture can you not read the simple truth, or has a spirit of (DELUSION) over taken you?

gene

Gene,
Hebrews 6:1-2 says that we are to abandon the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Faith in God as you understand it is old covenant and to is to be abandoned

Quote

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary doctrines of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

New covenant faith in God requires us to have faith in Christ.

Quote

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

We are under the apostolic requirement now which is faith in Christ. Get with God's new covenant program Gene. Your old covenant ways amount to disobedience. The whole creation worships the Father AND the Lamb (Revelation 5:13). If this is “blasphemy” then I blaspheme with all of creation.

Don't be a dissenter Gene!

thinker

The problem is IMO Thinker is that you don't understanding WHY we are called to believe in CHRIST…the anointed human being.

Jesus Christ is the substance of what the Father CREATED to cause us to believe in Him. By believing in the anointed human being and the fact that the Father raised him from the dead, we are showing our Trust in the Father, that He indeed keeps the promises of which He had made before time began. YHVH had promised before time began eternal life. We are to believe that Jesus is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN. As with Abraham, Faith is accounted as righteousness, believing that Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren is the PINNACLE of YHVH's work to bring mankind into having Faith in Him.

You don't seem to believe IN any of that… this truth seems to be far from you, even though it is clearly laid out IMO in scripture.

1 Peter 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,…..8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

John 12:44Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your s
oul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jodi Lee,

Jesus said,

“Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.”

This is clearly a departure from Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4 is it not?

The apostle John said,

” He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.“

This is clearly a departure from Moses and Deuteronomy 6:4 even by Arain standards.

Hebrews 6 warns us not to continue in faith toward God [in its old covenant content]. The new covenant rule is faith in the Father AND the Son. This is manifested by faith in Christ.

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and your house.”

If you deny that the content of faith has changed under the new covenant then you do not have even one ounce of God's gospel truth in your bones. We are not Israelites under Moses. So don't impose your old covenant principles on God's new covenant people. Paul said that to rebuild those things would make him a transgressor against the new covenant (Galatians).

Note that “every creature” worships the Father AND the Lamb (Rev. 5:13). This is God's new covenant way. YOU ARE THE DISSENTER JODI. I am the conformist.

thinker

John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

What does scripture SHOW in what context should this MEAN?

……VERSE 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Minebut the Father's who sent Me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do[/color. Arise, let us go from here.

We believe in Jesus because he speaks the words NOT of himself but of the Father. If we believe what Jesus says we are then believing in the Father, NOT in Jesus.

Good Grief could it NOT be made more clear?

We believe in Jesus because the Father SENT him, he did not send himself, nor did he come to do his OWN works but the works of the Father.

Thinker, what you need to believe regarding belief in Christ, is that he speaks the words of the Father and he is a SERVANT carrying out his Father's Will. YOu need to believe that Christ is the CHRIST the MAN anointed with the Father's Spirit.

December 31, 2009 at 8:07 pm#167531

Participant

Jodi Lee said:

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Christ taught for us to have Faith in the Father. Christ taught that he was the Christ, the human anointed with the Holy Spirit.

Hi Jodi Lee,

Christ taught an “elementary” faith in God which was after Moses though He did hint at a new kind of faith to come. We were never under Moses and no man is under Moses today. So Christ's “elementary doctrines” regarding faith in God are to be put away:

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Therefore, LEAVING the doctrine of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Under the new covenant the content of faith has changed. Faith in the Son of God as God is the requirement in this dispensation and this is how one's faith in the Father is manifested.

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These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

This faith in the Son of God involves more than accepting Him as the “anointed one” as you say. John goes on to explain,

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14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

Verse 13- Have faith in the Son of God and continue to have faith in the Son of God.

Verses 14-15- The faith of verse 13 is defined as “confidence.” And this confidence is defined by the assurance that if we ask anything according to His will He hears us. And if He [the Son of God] hears us we will receive what we ask.

Faith in the Son of God = confidence in Him = assurance in prayer to Him = reward from Him.

Under God's new covenant program the Son of God is God to you. You must leave the “elemantary teachings of Christ” regarding faith toward God. The content of faith has changed:

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Romans 1:16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed out of faith into faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Note that the gospel leads us OUT OF faith and INTO faith. This means that we come out of faith in its old covenant content and then come INTO faith in its new covenant content which is faith in the Son of God.

It is by faith in the Son of God as God that the Father is glorified. The whole creation worships the Father and the Son (Rev. 5:13)

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 8:15 pm#167533