The antichrist spirit

[Cubes]

Thanks for responding, Rudy.
Well, I respect your opinion but we do disagree, and that is okay. I haven't read all of t8's posts and thesis but I've read enough to know that we share the same understanding on who God is in relation to his son. It is not popular but it is what I believe that the Almighty is Above all and Christ is his beneficiary and son, who is Lord over all creation.

God has called all of us to preach the message of his kingdom, to tell the world that he sent his son in order to reconcile us to himself.

Let's all do that to the best of our ability as God enables us, and may he richly bless those that bring him glory, and do what he did with Elijah and with Christ. It's like Yeshua said to the doubters of his day: if you don't believe me, believe by the works that I do that God sent me. I personally believe it has come to that. As Spheres says, let's all lighten up.

And as you said, it is not our gospel.

[Rudy]

The problem with that Cubes is that Jesus told the Pharisees that God and Himself were one, and theysough to to kill Him for blasphemy, I again haeve read T8's arguments and find them absolutely ludicrous.

We are to Know Him and The Father!  That IS Eternal Life, so to deny who He is is to be in Spiritual Peril!

I do not say these things lightly!  

2 Peter 2:1 – But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.  

You are in a position of Destruction.  I say this out of Love!

The God that made you left glory to save you.  He, Yahweh the Redeemer, took on flesh to die for the remission of your sins.  That IS the Gospel!  Jesus became the Son of God when He was born of Mary.  Prior to His Incarnation He (the Word of God) and God are ONE.  These things are not deduced by the wisdom of men, they are revealed by the Spirit of God to those who desire righteousness!

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

If you reject who He says He IS, the God that took on flesh to save you, the Father in Him and He in the Father, which was and is and is to come, you are in Peril!

I did not post the prior warning of my own accord.  You have been warned, every word is recorded, By your words you will be justified (confessing God the Son) or by your word you will be condemned (rejecting who He says He is, Emmanuel, God with Us).

He has become the “firstborn” of many brethren to all who will not deny Him and will believe!

This doctrine T8 is spewing out is DEADLY.  It is the doctrine of the Pharisees.  Jesus said if you cannot believe that He and the Father are one, then believe on account of the miracles alone, but by all means

BELIEVE to your salvation!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2005,21:18)

But you confuse me. You waxed long on how Zechariah said God the Father was coming to stand on earth and rule. Now you say that it is Yeshua who is the King to be worshipped in Zion.

Hi NH,
Not so, in fact quite the opposite. I have always maintained that this chapter clearly speaks of Jesus.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Rudy @ April 21 2005,23:39)

Yesua and Yahweh are ONE: http://www.etz-chayim.org/articles/yeshua-yahweh.html

Thanks Rudy. The article was very perceptive and informative and I highly recommend it to all.

[Is 1:18]

Hi all,
Without wanting to inflame this already volatile discussion, I did want to ask what you all thought these two verses mean:

Joh 8
23And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

24″Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

I personally do not think that someone can lose their salvation for any sin (including a change of doctrinal affiliation) so I do not mean to infer that these words have a bearing (i.e. loss of salvation) on the saved. To me though, they do seem to suggest that Jesus takes very seriously who we believe Him to be. I also find it interesting how many “I am” statements Jesus makes and the reaction some of them have. What do others think Joh 8:24 means?

[Cubes]

Hi Rudy,  

RUDY:  “The problem with that Cubes is that [/B]Jesus told the Pharisees that God and Himself were one, and theysough to to kill Him for blasphemy, I again haeve read T8's arguments and find them absolutely ludicrous”

CUBES:  In Context:

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,17:40)

The reason Christ is THE ONLY “Door” is that God took on flesh, in human form

Amazing. You said it yourself Rudy.

And how apt that you should say this in a discussion titled “The antichrist spirit”.

Here is a test for the antichrist spirit.

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

It was Jesus Christ who came in the flesh, not God. You have clearly shown what spirit you are coming from.

[Proclaimer]

Bless you Cubes. I encourage you to keep fighting the good fight.

The truth that you fight for is no small thing. But the truth sets us free. False teachings come from the evil one in order to bind us up. The Kingdom of God suffers violence, but you are one of God's warriors.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,01:03)

Yeshua is the Incarnate “Word of God” who is God and with God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. I've read T8's arguments against this verse and again they are laughable. Yeshua was EQUAL in every sense to God prior to His incarnation. Phillipians 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. The word “grasped” in the greek is the word harpagamos.  The translation is the passive form of the verb which means “to hold as a prize”, something an individual would not give up. So Yeshua did not see His equality with God as a thing that would be worth keeping (as a prize [harpagamos] that He would not relinquish) in regard to laying aside His glory (Godhood) to take on flesh and the cross to become our salvation which is just what He did! Again, I've seen other's interpretations of this verse and again they are laughable. Make NO mistake, before His incarnation He WAS ONE WITH God, He was God the Word! For Yahweh ALONE is our REDEEMER!  His name is ONE!

So Rudy,
God is wrong when His Spirit teaches God is one.
According to Rudy God is TWO.

Rudy when you grasp at something then you do not currently hold it but you want to hold it.

The Son of God did not regard equality a thing 'TO BE” grasped. “to be” is of the future and not the past or the present. He never had equality with the Father ,Who he told us was greater than himself. He humbly accepted his state as inferior to his Father. You are deceived in this matter.

[Anonymous]

Rudy wrote: “The word “grasped” in the greek is the word harpagamos. The translation is the passive form of the verb which means “to hold as a prize”, something an individual would not give up.”

He is correct. That is how this word should be rendered. Phi 2 v5 means Christ did not regard the equality He had with the father as something to be 'retained'. Just thought I should correct your misunderstanding Nick.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
So let's look at the root word;
726 harpazo;from a prim root arp
to seize, catch up, snatch away
carry off[1]
caught up[4]
snatch[2]
snatched away[1] snatches[ 1] snatches away[ 1]
snatching[1]
takes away by force[1]
take by force[2].

So which of those interpretations suggests in any way that he who takes;

has by right?
already holds?
owns?

If I have something you want then you would snatch it away from me or carry it off. These speak of violence and unlawful taking what does not belong to you of right.

[Is 1:18]

Hi NH,
The word is: harpagmos
har-pag-mos'
From G726; plunder (properly concrete): – robbery.

Also consider this: how could He empty Himself of something He didn't have?

Phil 2
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is.

There is no connection necessarily between those phrases. If fact the second emphasises his humility by adding that he went further to even empty himself. You cannot read supposed implications as equal to truth.
Do you believe God is two?

[Proclaimer]

To have the form of God is different to being God.
As mentioned before, God is the Divine and Yeshua has divine nature. That is Christ's form, divinity. He then took on another nature namely the flesh and became a man.

Notice that it says that he existed in the form. It doesn't say that he existed as God himself, which some who come here are trying to teach.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is,

Do you see Yeshua as a plunderer or robber?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ April 24 2005,22:52)

Hi Rudy, Thank you for the link.  I have also added the one to which you referred Greg.   On page 130 or 131 of the Trinity thread, I posted a response to MM on Zechariah 14 once.  Do you mind looking at it and letting me know what you think of it…you too Is 1:18.   Lastly Rudy, could you please tell us in a nutshell what your understanding of the Eternal God is and who Christ is in relation to him?

Hi Cubes,
Ill make a deal with you . If you read, with an open mind, the article that Rudy posted (http://www.etz-chayim.org/articles/yeshua-yahweh.html) and get back to me and tell me what you think, I will gladly read your post and reply in kind.
God Bless

[Rudy]

Let's take T8's only source for foundation that he has laid, other than misinterpretation of scripture, Proverbs 8:

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

T8 would have you believe that this is the Incarnate Christ, how foolish a thing to suggest.  The first verse says it is WISDOM:

1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

Here is wisdom:

Isaiah 11:2 – And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…

It is one of the seven “spirits of God”:

Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

These are the Spirit of God upon Christ which were without measure, that is in whole, not in part.

John 1:32 – And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

All who read:  We are told to come to Him as a child.  A child believes with simple faith, T8 would have you question the truth, Listen:

If Jesus says before Abraham was I AM, He means it, all the messianic Jews knew exactly what He meant and did not doubt as you do!

If Jesus says He and His Father (since the incarnation) are one, the Father in Him and HE IN THE FATHER (one God), believe it!

The Pharisees are the ones who doubted and reasoned away what He said due to the hardness of their heart, Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you will in no way enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

The Love, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost to all who believe in God the Son!

Rudy

PS, W.E. Vines dictionary on “Prize”

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0002222

(2) The Passive sense gives a different meaning to the passage: 'Who though He was subsisting in the essential form of God, yet did not regard His being on an equality of glory and majesty with God as a prize and a treasure to be held fast, but emptied himself thereof.”

[Proclaimer]

Hi Rudy,

Are you are getting deperate now? You cannot fault the truth that there is one God, the Father and that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. So you now turn to this in the hope to make me look foolish or to create a smoke screen. Why not tackle the real issue here?

But to put the Wisdom theology into perspective I will first point out that this is certainly an opinion and I certainly do think that Christ was and is Wisdom. The New Testament calls him Wisdom and the Old Testament talks about wisdom in a conceptual sense (as an attribute of God), but then it says that Wisdom was given birth (begotten). At this point we see that Wisdom rejoiced when God created the worlds etc.

Many christians (Trinitarians included) actually believe this too. So it is not really that strange a teaching. In fact many of the 2nd century fathers taught it, just as they taught that the Father is the only God. People like Tertullian, Justin Martyr and Theophilus of Antioch for example. To investigate that further you can go to the following URL:

https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-6.htm

But like I said before. This is an opinion I hold and if I am wrong it doesn't affect my belief that the Father of Jesus is the Almighty God. It doesn't disrupt the foundation of true faith whatsoever if Christ is or isn't Wisdom. For there is regardless of that outcome one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ who is God's son and image.

But on the matter of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, that certainly is something to be concerned about. You say that God came in the flesh. But scripture says that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and that the spirit of antichrist denies this.

This is the real concern Rudy.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Rudy,

Quote (Rudy @ April 26 2005,06:37)

Let's take T8's only source for foundation that he has laid, other than misinterpretation of scripture, Proverbs 8:

But how have I misinterpretted scripture by saying that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty God and only him.

Let's start with this one then.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Can you show me how this verse teaches a Trinity or at least show me that it isn't saying that the Father is God and the son is subject to him. I truly look foward to your reply.

[Rudy]

Quote (t8 @ April 18 2005,07:09)

Quote (Rudy @ April 18 2005,09:29) This, in my opinion, is far worse than the trinitarian or oneness doctrine because people actually come to Christ through those means but once in, are diverted down a perverted path that leads to destruction. Maybe? Philippians 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice…. Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! But which is worse. A false gospel or the true gospel with a false motive? I came to Christ by the efforts of a fellowship who is based on a Trinitarian creed. But I cannot remember once where they actually preached the Trinity to me. It certainly wasn't part of the gospel they gave me anyway. I respect these people not because of their denomination, but because of who they were and what God had done in their lives. However they baptized me in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit as most denominations do. Apart from that, they gave me the true gospel message and even baptism in the Holy Spirit. I also believe that they did it not out of selfish ambition, but in service to God.

T8

This is your post that started this. 'Till then I had not seen your spirit, this post made it apparent that you are setting your own “private” interpretation as “The Gospel”. That has been the position of all false teachers.

Actually T8, I'm not desperate at all!

The repentant heart will do works mete for repentance, being transformed into the image of Christ, that is obedience! To lay aside all sin (the weight that so easily besets us) and love those around him/her and build them up, not tear them down (that is the race we have to run). 'Till we become a mature “man” in Christ!

Rudy

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