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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2005,03:18) Hi,
The Father is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last andUnder God
Yeshua is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
…so there are actually two firsts and two lasts? Hmmm.Quote (Rudy @ April 20 2005,03:46) Who is he “who is, who was, and who is to come”?
That is Yeshua , of course, and the beast who was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss is Satan.Hi NH,
I think Rudy was referring to this verse:Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, ” who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”Most definately not the beast. This spoken passage is recorded in red letters in the red letter Bibles.
Quote (Rudy @ April 19 2005,20:33) Speak the truth, just make sure it is in love.
Rudy, I agree with you. Using phrases like: “antichrist spirit”, “come out of her”, and “useless to God” against a trinitarian, or anyone holding a different doctrine to your own, will always be detrimental to winning them over to the truth (if indeed it is the truth). Ask any salesperson how to make a sale and they will tell you that you have to engage someone on a personal and friendly level. That is why the good ones will remember your name and use it frequently in conversation (a name, the sweetest sound to peoples ears!).I think the best result you will get from using the above phrases is that you will offend them, and instantly lose their respect (and hence your own credibility). No one was ever fully convinced of a truth by someone they don't like. The worst case senario from using a phrase like “useless to God” is that they might believe you and start thinking that because they aren't doctrinally perfect, then they don't matter to God. If you tell someone they, or what they do, are useless to God – remember you are actually speaking on God's behalf.
Question: How many trinitarians have been “turned around” in this forum?
Answer: ZERO
You will probably put this down to their delusion, hardness of heart, unwillingness to leave tradition and accept a minority-held doctrine…….
I think that is unlikely to be true. The law of averages would suggest at least some would come around, surely. Especially given the time frame and sheer number of exchanges. There are other explanations however:
1. your MO isn't working, or.
2. Your argument doesn't withstand scrutiny.Rudy has made some good points regarding pt 1. Maybe you should consider them? Any way my thoughts on the matter, for what they're worth.
Blessings to all.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2005,08:34) Hi NH,
I think Rudy was referring to this verse:Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, ” who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”Most definately not the beast. This spoken passage is recorded in red letters in the red letter Bibles.
Hi Is,
You have not read my post properly.I had moved on to another simile.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2005,06:55) Quote (Rudy @ April 20 2005,03:46) Who is he “who is, who was, and who is to come”?
That is Yeshua , of course, and the beast who was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss is Satan.
Quite right NH, my mistake. If this is Jesus though, He declares Himself “the Almighty”.So Nick,
According to your answer Yeshua is the “who was and is and is to come”, then Yeshua is the Almighty in Rev. 1:8 as mentioned above?
Quote (Rudy @ April 20 2005,11:03) So Nick, According to your answer Yeshua is the “who was and is and is to come”, then Yeshua is the Almighty in Rev. 1:8 as mentioned above?
Hi ,
Rev 1.4
” John to the seven churches that are in Asia. Grace to you and peace from Him who is, who was and who is to come , and from the seven spirits who are before His throne, AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth”Hey guys. I did not do my homework and shot from the hip. I am wrong and I thank you for kindly pointing that out.
Ok guys, I think it is enough!
When I was a child 7-8 yrs. old, we lived in the country and owned horses. I saw them “doing it” and asked momma what they were doing. She said they were just playing. Why did she not tell me the truth? Because I wouldn't understand. I was too young to grasp the concept. When I asked where babies come from, I got the same answer. I was too young to understand.
The first time I saw (as a child) a woman nursing her baby I again asked momma what she was doing. She said feeding her baby. That freaked me out. Until this time I had only seen dogs nursing their pups. I thought, “Are we no different than the dogs?”.
The point is this. You and I are finite created beings. We can try as much as we want to understand an Infinite God, but, as much as you try you will always fail. The finite cannot understand completely the Infinite and Holy Almighty God. For we see through a glass darkly. We cannot see clearly, so we trust in Him to, as he did, reveal himself through Jesus. We are told to come to Him by faith and He explained the work he did to remove our sin, we must accept that by faith.
So, because I am a child and do not fully understand the Infinite, Loving, Redeeming Father and His only Begotten Son, makes me no less a child. I am a child by faith in the Atonement He provided and obedience to flee immorality and sin. For whoever you submit yourself servant to obey, they are your master, whether sin unto death, or righteousness which is by faith in Christ Jesus unto everlasting life.
Our Father does not reveal himself completely and all at once. We can't handle it. So please don't judge a brother/sister in Christ because they don't fully grasp the Infinite Creator.
Eternal Life is by faith in the work that God did in Christ to redeem us to himself. Our faith is that the blood He shed is able to atone for ALL of our sin. That blood is applyed to us when we accept His Grace (for it is not by works) and submit ourselves to Him to obey and live godly and holy lives. For without the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sin.
So if you place your faith in Him and the work He did on the cross and not your knowledge, or church membership, or doctrine, or your own “goodness”, and seek to love Him and righteousness with all your heart, then you are “born of the Spirit” and my brother/sister in Christ!
I honor you, I pray for you, I thank God for you, I speak kindly to you and of you, I respect you! But mostly I respect the Lord of heaven and earth who bought you with His blood, you are His child through Christ Jesus!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2005,04:07) Question: How many trinitarians have been “turned around” in this forum? Answer: ZERO
To Is 1:18,You are wrong with that assumption. Try reading the following discussion for a start.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=1;t=12I have also personally recieved many emails from people who believe what the Trinity writing (on this site) says. You see there are many people out there that actually doubt that doctrine. It's just that they feel they are on their own in a world of deception. When they see others and read good solid teaching regarding the deception of the Trinity doctrine, they are then more confident to speak that which was in their heart.
At the same time though, I do not expect every Trinitarian and his dog to come this forum and say “oh I see that, I have changed my mind now”. Why is that? Simply because if most christians were hot, then the Trinity Doctrine wouldn't have a majority following to begin with. The reason why many do not turn to the truth when it is shown them is not because of the soundness that God is one, not three, but that they are not hot for God. Many are luke warm and follow the traditions of men. Many have a form of godliness but deny the power. The power is only in the truth.
Jesus even said that MANY will say that they served him. But he will tell those who commit iniquity to go away from him.
Just because you personally haven't seen many Trinitarians let go of their false doctrine, doesn't mean that your assumption is right. There are many reasons why you haven't seen this yourself. If you really loved the truth you might see what God is doing, but perhaps you do not love truth that much? Why should God reveal it to you if you do not? Do you need to see multitudes turn before you will? Do you follow men or God?
If Jesus said to you (when he had few followers in the beginning) follow me, would you have followed him. Or would you have waited for the multitudes to turn? Again are you a follower of man or God?
T8,
I have one question, you probably have covered this somewhere, but, what is you position on the Deity of Christ?
Quote (Rudy @ April 20 2005,11:47) Ok guys, I think it is enough! When I was a child 7-8 yrs. old, we lived in the country and owned horses. I saw them “doing it” and asked momma what they were doing. She said they were just playing. Why did she not tell me the truth? Because I wouldn't understand. I was too young to grasp the concept. When I asked where babies come from, I got the same answer. I was too young to understand.
The first time I saw (as a child) a woman nursing her baby I again asked momma what she was doing. She said feeding her baby. That freaked me out. Until this time I had only seen dogs nursing their pups. I thought, “Are we no different than the dogs?”.
The point is this. You and I are finite created beings. We can try as much as we want to understand an Infinite God, but, as much as you try you will always fail. The finite cannot understand completely the Infinite and Holy Almighty God. For we see through a glass darkly. We cannot see clearly, so we trust in Him to, as he did, reveal himself through Jesus. We are told to come to Him by faith and He explained the work he did to remove our sin, we must accept that by faith.
So, because I am a child and do not fully understand the Infinite, Loving, Redeeming Father and His only Begotten Son, makes me no less a child. I am a child by faith in the Atonement He provided and obedience to flee immorality and sin. For whoever you submit yourself servant to obey, they are your master, whether sin unto death, or righteousness which is by faith in Christ Jesus unto everlasting life.
Our Father does not reveal himself completely and all at once. We can't handle it. So please don't judge a brother/sister in Christ because they don't fully grasp the Infinite Creator.
Eternal Life is by faith in the work that God did in Christ to redeem us to himself. Our faith is that the blood He shed is able to atone for ALL of our sin. That blood is applyed to us when we accept His Grace (for it is not by works) and submit ourselves to Him to obey and live godly and holy lives. For without the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sin.
So if you place your faith in Him and the work He did on the cross and not your knowledge, or church membership, or doctrine, or your own “goodness”, and seek to love Him and righteousness with all your heart, then you are “born of the Spirit” and my brother/sister in Christ!
I honor you, I pray for you, I thank God for you, I speak kindly to you and of you, I respect you! But mostly I respect the Lord of heaven and earth who bought you with His blood, you are His child through Christ Jesus!
Hi Rudy,
Are you saying that realising what Jesus has done for us
and believing in him allows us to then accept the free gift of salvation?Is that your understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Is it just a case of understanding the gospel saves us?
A moment of intellectual insight gives us eternal life?
Did Peter or Paul or Jesus teach this?
The bible teaches that all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God.
The bible teaches that the angels rejoice when one sinner repents and that we must all repent lest we perish.
The bible teaches we should repent, believe and be baptised in the name of Jesus and we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The bible teaches we must be born again of water and the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom.Please Rudy only teach what is written.
Hi Rudy,
Yeshua is the Son of God. He was begotten of God and was with God in the beginning. Though he had divine nature he did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.There is only one true God. God is one.There are beings, however, who are greater than man and the Son of God is the greatest of these. But God is greater than he and he worships and serves Him.
If deities or gods are those who are greater than man then the Son of God is the greatest of them. But if deities are those we should worship there is only the Father that should be worshipped.
Some men worship Jesus or Mary or men such as popes. Some worship angels. Some worship bits of wood and stone. We should only worship the Father as Jesus taught us.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2005,22:33) There are beings, however, who are greater than man and the Son of God is the greatest of these. But God is greater than he and he worships and serves Him. If deities or gods are those who are greater than man then the Son of God is the greatest of them. But if deities are those we should worship there is only the Father that should be worshipped.
Can you please explain why we should not worship Jesus in light of the following:Matthew 2:11 – And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
Matthew 8:2 – And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Matthew 9:18 – While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 14:33 – Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 15:25 – Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Matthew 28:9 – And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Matthew 28:17 – And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mark 5:6 – But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Luke 24:52 – And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
John 9:38 – And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Man refused worship and exorted not to do it:
Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.The anti-christ & Satan desires worship:
Matthew 4:9 – And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.2 Thessalonians 2:4 – Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Angels refuse worship:
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.Why is it if we are to worship God ONLY that Yeshua allowed it every time and NEVER admonished anyone for it?
Matthew 4:10 – Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mark 7:7 – Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hi Rudy,
Are you taught by the behaviour of men or the teaching of God?As you quoted
” Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God ,and Him alone shalt thou serve”
And as Jesus quoted the Father as saying through Isaiah
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men”Jesus worshipped the Father. We are meant to follow him. He said
“when you pray, go into your inner room , and when you have shut your door, PRAY TO YOUR FATHER..”Many have been confused into believing Jesus is the Father because He accepted worship. You need to understand the word used for worship in a lot of these scriptures also means simple deference to one who is your lord. But he is the Son of God who was filled with the Spirit of His Father. He taught us not to worship him but His father and I think we should respect his teaching do you not?
Nick,
All other cultic teachings deny the deity of Christ. Christ did not reject worship because He IS God manifest in the flesh, The Son of the Living God. God manifested in the flesh and died for us. Yeshua and the Father ARE ONE! Like begets like kind.
After careful examination of your doctrine I pray the Lord of Heaven and Earth will grant you eyes to see and ears to hear, for you WILL bow to the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God to the Glory of God the Father!
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