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Thank you,
These are trinitarians. One obvious fact to me about the trinity doctrine as I have yet to meet the person who worships or prays to a trinity. And attendance at their services further shows their confusion as they pray to, worship and call on The Father, the Son and the Spirit-all mixed in and confused-but no one addresses a trinity in prayer.Jesus came to restore worship and prayer to the Father who is God.
I don't disagree, but what they are pointing out is a movement I and my wife were sucked into at an early christian age, the “word of Faith” movement, and it is absolutely destroying the body of Christ.
They're main teaching is to enjoy the “good life” through positive confession and covetousness (which is idolatry) propagated through scripture.
To trettep,
Quote (trettep @ Mar. 31 2005,18:28) Yes T8!!! We are basically saved so long as we have the Spirit of God but we can lose the Spirit of God by disobedience because disobedience is a spirit also. T8 you might be ready for a bit more substance in your diet. I want to ask you now what you believe the Gospel is?
The good news is that Yeshua is the messiah of God.In context and from understanding scripture, we know that we need a messiah because we have all sinned and are in need of redemption.
The price for sin is death and even God said to Adam that when you eat that fruit, you will die. So we are all heading for death. But God sent the messiah to save us (to give us life eternal). The Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) died for us and went to hades and took the keys of death off the Devil and rose victorious, back to earth. He was then resurrected to the highest place in heaven, where he is seated at the right hand of the Father, ruling creation. Our messiah has the keys of death in his possession and can raise us up on the last day.
We who wish to be one with God must believe that Yeshua is the messiah from God and turn from our sins and serve Yeshua's God. To accept God's gift of salvation, we are baptised in Yeshua's name and we are able to receive the Spirit of God which means that we are born from above. When we receive the Spirit of God, we are not only one with God and with Christ, but we can be one with those who also have the Spirit. This Spirit is our deposit and guarantee that we have eternal life. We only need to keep being filled with God's Spirit and to serve him in love for the rest of our lives.
This may seem long-winded, but the message of the gospel is simple. That “Yeshua is the messiah”. But in order to understand what a messiah is or why we even need a messiah, I have also included the context of which not all know about.
However many of the Jews were aware of the context or some of the context having being brought up with the scriptures. But for many Gentiles they are not aware of it at all. So sometimes a longer explanation is needed. It depends on how much light one has received.
However all men (mankind), if they are honest will admit that they have fear and they know that they have sinned and that they face death. The message of the gospel is a message of hope and a good message. It is not burdensome like some gospels you hear that have all these strings attached.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2005,20:20) Thank you,
These are trinitarians. One obvious fact to me about the trinity doctrine as I have yet to meet the person who worships or prays to a trinity. And attendance at their services further shows their confusion as they pray to, worship and call on The Father, the Son and the Spirit-all mixed in and confused-but no one addresses a trinity in prayer.Jesus came to restore worship and prayer to the Father who is God.
That is true. No one says dear Trinity from my experience anyway.It is also interesting when you replace the word 'God' in the scriptures for 'Trinity'. It shows that the Trinity doctrine is not sound scripturally. It is antichrist because it is against Christ. Yeshua taught the truth, not the Trinity doctrine.
Many people who call themselves disciples of Christ need to repent. They need to turn away from man-made fables and toward the truth.
Quote (trettep @ Mar. 31 2005,13:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2005,23:37) Hi Paul,
Certainly we are told not to quench the Spirit and not to grieve the Spirit. David pleaded that the Spirit not be taken from him. But does the NT ever say we can lose the Spirit?
If one is disobedient to God's laws willfully they take on the spirit of disobedience. A spirit is a state of character. You are what your character dictates.Paul
Hi trettep,
Which Law is this? The Old Law or the Law of Christ? Does not the Holy Spirit lead us to fulfill the Law of Christ without our human striving? Surely we do need to cooperate too.I was “Born of the Spirit” in a trinitarian church, Baptised with the Holy Spirit in a bible study, sought to be Christ like and manifest all the fruit of the Spirit unto all good works.
Then came the “Believers Convention” of 1981 in Dallas, Texas, teaching a doctrine of wealth is good and to be desired, after all it is our inheritance and we should lay hold of it and claim it as our own. We only need have faith and a positive confession and “sow more to reap more”.
Thus began a spiraling into covetousness that has the “christian” world seeking the gift rather than the giver of the gift. They seek God's Blessings as promised to the heirs of salvation rather than seeking holiness and godliness, performing works meet for repentance.
This idolatry is plastered all over TBN and, but to a lesser degree, Daystar Television. It maintains a “cloak” of righteousness, but, inwardly is using the Gospel as a means of material gain.
This, in my opinion, is far worse than the trinitarian or oneness doctrine because people actually come to Christ through those means but once in, are diverted down a perverted path that leads to destruction.
Matthew 23:13 – But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Hebrews 13:5 – Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Quote (Rudy @ April 17 2005,14:29) This, in my opinion, is far worse than the trinitarian or oneness doctrine because people actually come to Christ through those means but once in, are diverted down a perverted path that leads to destruction. Matthew 23:13 – But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Hebrews 13:5 – Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Finally some balance and perspective! Thank you Rudy.Quote (Guest @ April 17 2005,20:30) Quote (Rudy @ April 17 2005,14:29) This, in my opinion, is far worse than the trinitarian or oneness doctrine because people actually come to Christ through those means but once in, are diverted down a perverted path that leads to destruction. Matthew 23:13 – But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Hebrews 13:5 – Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Finally some balance and perspective! Thank you Rudy.Hello MM,
Two wrongs don't make a right, as they say.
Trinitarian/Oneness is unbiblical and so is the Prosperity Message and a bunch of other false doctrines that have crept in blatantly to try and corrupt the truth of Christ.We should become courageous in recognizing and denouncing whatsoever is not of Christ.
I speak more often about the Trinity because my own questions/search led me to study it more. What'smore, I feel it is all for nothing if we don't know who our God is and what his will is.
Those who know their God shall do great exploits, I think the scripture says in Daniel.
But Rudy, I can't even begin to tell you how right you are on this so called prosperity message. And some are worse than others.
Quote (Rudy @ April 18 2005,09:29) This, in my opinion, is far worse than the trinitarian or oneness doctrine because people actually come to Christ through those means but once in, are diverted down a perverted path that leads to destruction.
Maybe?Philippians 1:15-18
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice….Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!But which is worse. A false gospel or the true gospel with a false motive?
I came to Christ by the efforts of a fellowship who is based on a Trinitarian creed. But I cannot remember once where they actually preached the Trinity to me. It certainly wasn't part of the gospel they gave me anyway. I respect these people not because of their denomination, but because of who they were and what God had done in their lives.
However they baptized me in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit as most denominations do. Apart from that, they gave me the true gospel message and even baptism in the Holy Spirit. I also believe that they did it not out of selfish ambition, but in service to God.
I know of noone purposefully trying to deceive men from the Gospel of Christ through the doctrine of trinitarianism or modalism. The churches I have been to are teaching Christ, the son of God, crucified for our sins, risen from the dead, and us justified before God by His blood and death on the cross. It is not hard to understand the confusion people get into concerning Christ, since, the Father has chosen to place all things under His subjection, God excepted, and that He is God's son, the Word, from whom all things exist, God (Yahweh) excepted.
Man's limited ability to even comprehend the majesty of the Almighty required Yeshua to come and reveal the Father to us. If you've seen Yeshua, you've seen the Father. If you receive Yeshua, you have received Yahweh. No one can come to Yahweh but by Yeshua, “I and my Father are one”
2 Corinthians 5:19 – To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
On the contrary, the ministers preaching the “Word of Faith” doctrine are leading people directly away from the Father into idolatry and the love of riches. That will seperate you from the Father having replaced him as your object of worship with riches and material gain.
Matthew 6:24 – No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Hi Rudy,
No one is suggesting that there is malice involved. But false Jesus's are preached. False gospels are preached that deny the need to accept the free gift of salvation.
The proof of the pudding is that if these things are done then men are not taught the way by which we are saved and so they are given false directions and may be lost. Thus their teachers are false teachers with these lost souls on their consciences.I was in a trinitarian church and received the “true” Jesus as my Lord and Savior & recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I received the True Christ by faith in His completed work.
You shall know them by the fruit. He that loves is born of God, he that does not is not. He who walks in darkness (sin) and claims to know God is a liar and the truth is not in him. He that walks in the Spirit does not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Set your mind and affection on heavenly things above, not on things of the flesh.
Love God and your neighbor, in this the Law is fullfilled.
The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Him who is weak in faith receive, but not to doubtful arguments.
He who seeks diligently finds.
Let him who is wicked and loves unrighteousness be wicked still.
Even Thomas called Jesus Lord and God and was not rebuked.
Jesus made himself equal with God but made himself of no reputation, the form of a servant:Phill 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So to think Jesus to be God is not a sin, nor is it a false Christ.
To deny his payment of your sin and that He came from God in the flesh, God in Him reconciling the world to himself, is a sin.
To deny the Son is to deny the Father. To receive the Son is to receive the Father.
To be born again is to have the Spirit of God, through Christ, transform you into loving God, not this world. To deny the works of the flesh and live unto God through Christ being formed in you is to be Born of God (born again).
Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Hi Rudy,
To think Jesus is the one true God is wrong. Trinity teaches Jesus is not separate from the Father but they are one in substance. So it makes it impossible that he be sent and filled with the Father's Spirit as he IS that Father by their false reasoning. It does deny that Jesus came in the flesh because Jesus IS NOT separate from the Father by the same dogma.Yes he had godly form and was in the beginning with the Father, begotten from the father. How can he be begotten from the Father if he still is of the SAME substance as the Father? How can he have been WITH the Father if he still was of the same combined substance?
So the trinity Jesus is a false Jesus.2Cor 11.3
” But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be lead astray from the SIMPLICITY and PURITY of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached;or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully”The mind is the trap. The Word is the safe path.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2005,20:40) 2Cor 11.3
” But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be lead astray from the SIMPLICITY and PURITY of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached;or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully”
Nick, funny you should quote that scripture. It refers back to Eden.The word of God emphatically teaches us:
Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
But the Trinity says God is three in one.“Has God Said….”
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?”
Has God really said he is One and only one? It's subtle. Just like the serpent. In love, I encourage Trinitarians to really seek God on this critical and obvious discrepancy.
Genesis 3:1
Trinity 3 in 1.2 Corinthians 1: 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Luke 11:13 – If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
2 Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
1 John 2:29 – If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1 John 3:7 – Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
John 1:13 – Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The father knows those that are his, we all see through a glass darkly. We are all at different mile markers in the race. We all are changed from glory to glory. Have faith in God. Don't be doubting, trust in Him who is able to deliver us and keep that which we have committed to Him against that day. For without faith it is impossible to please Him, Even if your doctrine is right. You and I cannot make someone “born again”, it is a work of God. Noone can come to God unless the spirit draw him, and noone new to Chist has all their doctrine perfect.
The work is the Lord's, that is why a servant is required to be obedient, they're His works we walk in, not our own.
Being born of the Spirit is NOT a mental thing, it is Spiritual!
Hi Rudy,
You said: “to deny his payment of your sin… is a sin”No one argues that the work done by Jesus is sufficient for all to be saved.
But are you suggesting all ARE saved by that work?
Or are you suggesting that all who believe in Jesus are saved?
Or are you suggesting the Spirit is the only witness we need of salvation??? Jn 3.5, 1Jn 5.7-8
Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.
You shall know them by their fruits! He that confesses Christ and bears fruit is in the Vine!
Hi Rudy,
We tell you what is written. It is not judging to do that but helping avoid judgement by one who does judge. It is not to pull down but to build up. Do we make ourselves your enemies by showing you the instructions of God or friends for eternity?I'm not saying you are judging, but your faith is in your doctrine, not in the Living God! I only disagree that unless an individuals doctrine is perfect he cannot be born-again. That is absolute false. A child is no less a child, he must grow, and that takes time and perseverance.
There is only one savior and Mediator between God and man, the Man Jesus Christ. An individual wishing to come to the father will not be turned away, even if his understanding is not perfect, we all see through the glass darkly!
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