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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2005,18:09) Quote Hi Rudy,
These are a good collection of verses.
The angel told John not to worship him but to worship God. (Rev. 19:10) Why did Jesus accept the worship and not forbid it like the angel did? I think your conclusion has to be right.Greg
Greg, are you and Rudy prepared to accept David as God too? By your logic you must:
1 Chronicles 21:
“21So David came to Ornan, and Ornan looked and saw David. And he went out from the threshing floor, and bowed before David with his face to the ground.”1 Chronicles 29:
“20Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” So all the assembly blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the LORD and the king.”Just in case you are still confused by all of this, consider this verse:
Luke 1:
“32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.”Why did “Jesus” accept worship? For the same reason that David did: He was (and is) the king.
Hi What is true
Thankyou for your post.
It gives me something to think about.Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,19:25) [quote=Nick
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
Hi Rudy,
This is the unity between the Father and the Son as defined by the one you and I call “Master”.Jn 17 11
” Holy Father, keep them in Thy Name, the name which thou hast given me, that they may be ONE even as WE ARE ONE”
Jn 17.21
“..that they may all be ONE, even as thou are in me, and I in Thee, that they may also be in us;that the world may believe that Thou didst send me”So was the prayer of Jesus answered?
Would it not be?
So what unity did the apostles demonstrate with God and Jesus and each other that shows this evidence?It was not oneness in substance.
It was not oneness in style.
They did not always completely understand or totally agree with one another.But they were ONE
Quote (Guest @ April 26 2005,12:00) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2005,18:09) Quote Hi Rudy,
These are a good collection of verses.
The angel told John not to worship him but to worship God. (Rev. 19:10) Why did Jesus accept the worship and not forbid it like the angel did? I think your conclusion has to be right.Greg
Greg, are you and Rudy prepared to accept David as God too? By your logic you must:
1 Chronicles 21:
“21So David came to Ornan, and Ornan looked and saw David. And he went out from the threshing floor, and bowed before David with his face to the ground.”1 Chronicles 29:
“20Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” So all the assembly blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the LORD and the king.”Just in case you are still confused by all of this, consider this verse:
Luke 1:
“32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.”Why did “Jesus” accept worship? For the same reason that David did: He was (and is) the king.
Hi What is true
Thankyou for your post.
It gives me something to think about.
Hi Greg, I hope you are well.
My take of 1 Chron 21 & 29 scriptures. First let me there are two ways to translate the word used for worship in the verses; deference and reverence. If that latter was given in these verses then that would be be blasphemy. God is unimbigious in His condemnation of this 'reserved for God' worship:Deut 8:19
If you ever forget the LORD your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you shall surely perish.It is forbidden to reverently worship anyone but God alone.
In the case of 1 Chron 29:20, If this type of reverential worship was given to the king then David has sinned for commanding it, the king has sinned by recieving it and the assembly has sinned by giving it. A cursory review of the the Torah will very quickly reveal that the behaviour of the patriachs was reported 'warts and all'. There is a important distinction to be drawn between what the Bible reports and what God condones.
The other possibilty was that that this was an act of deference or respect to an authority and if that was the case then it is quite appropriate. It is not blasphemy to politely bow to a king. The 1 Chron verses prove absolutely nothing Greg.
Did/Does Jesus recieve the deference or the reverent 'reserved for God' type? Did he rebuke it? Its a no brainer for me, but i'll let you judge for yourself.
Matthew 28
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”Revelation 5
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
or ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.Zechariah 14
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.Hi Is,
I do not think we are in any position to judge David. Do you? Human judgement belongs to the ways of the unforgiven and unsaved who are yet to understand their own weakness.Is falling at the feet of someone how you understand worship? Surely it is a very primitive and inadequate means of worship. Even pagans make a greater effort with their idols. Surely this would not be the worship God would accept?
The Son of God is greater than any being under God. He deserves all the praise and honour and glory and power that his proud Father commands. But it does not state in Rev 5 that the elders fell down and worshipped him does it? It is presumptive to read what is not written.
But honour to the Son is not at the expense of worship to the Father. God does not teach that Jesus came to be worshipped but to lead men to worship the Father. That is the teaching of men who would lead others away from truth.
Yes the Almighty king and God will be worshipped by the nations in Jerusalem or they will suffer the consequences. But Jesus will not be receiving that worship as he is not the God who is to be worshipped. He rules on behalf of his Father. Psalm 2 speaks of this time and Jesus is the one given homage but it is Father who is worshipped.
v10
“Now therefore ,O Kings, show discernment; take warning O judges of the earth.Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling.
Do homage to the Son, that he not become angry, and you perish in the way”
God is the Lord.
Hi Is 1:18
Very quickly on the whole worship thing, it's interesting that the only word used of Jesus receiving worship – proskuneo – is also used in Revelation 3:9.
Quote Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship (proskuneo) before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
If Jesus himself says that the church would receive worship, then this suggests to me that there's no implied divinity/blasphemy about proskuneo. “Latruo”, however, seems to be a different story, but this is only used of the Father, and never of Jesus.Apologies for posting this link twice, but here's a great article on this subject here.
God be with you, have a good day.
Quote (Guest @ April 28 2005,20:44) If Jesus himself says that the church would receive worship, then this suggests to me that there's no implied divinity/blasphemy about proskuneo. “Latruo”, however, seems to be a different story, but this is only used of the Father, and never of Jesus.
Hi Sammo,
How do you explain this verse?Quote Rev 22:8, 9
And I John saw these things, and heard I them. And when I had heard and seen,991 I fell down to worship (proskuneo 4352) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.Proskuneo was given by John to an angel and was prompty rebuked. If “there's no implied divinity/blasphemy” why was he redressed and told to do it to God instead?
Hi Is I:18
This is the definition of proskuneo that my online Bible gives me:
Quote 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons
I guess if you only 'proskuneod' beings of superior rank, then the angel rejecting worship would be explained by his words in v9: “I am a fellow servant”.Sammo, do you agree that there is a Proskuneo that is appropriate for a person, and a Proskuneo that must be reserved for God?
Hi Sammo and Is,
I guess there is worship and worship too. We would fall prostrate before any superior being but formal worship of God as defined by Jesus in Mt 6.6f is different. Likewise the acceptable sacrifice of praise in our temples as mentioned by Peter and Jn 4 is different too.Hi Is, Nick, and Sammo,
Thankyou for these views on worship. This will be my study this weekend when I have more time.
Have a great weekend!
Greg
Hi Greg,
Here is a section of a post I made several months ago (pg 64, Trinity thread). FYI.Quote OK, lets look at this word 'proskuneo' – because, as you rightly say, it can mean several things. It can mean to pay homage to – an act of courtesy and respect. It can also mean to subserviently and reverently worship. Clearly there is a type of proskuneo that is reserved for God alone and a kind that is allowable for others (unless its a demon). How can we tell the difference? I guess you would have to look at all the usages of this word in the NT and find a commonality for the overtly condemned type. Here are four instances where proskuneo was performed and promptly rebuked: 1. “8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9″All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” 10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only”” Mat 4:8-10
2. “24 The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”” Acts 10:24,25
3. “10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Rev 19:10
4. “8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” ” Rev 22:8
The common feature is obviously falling (pipto was used in the Mat 4 verse, it means to fall down also) because on each occasion the worshiper fell down before worshipping the worshippee. This act of total subservience is obviously a pointer to the fact that it was more than just a show of courteous respect.
So I guess the issue is, was this type of worship ever given to Jesus and what were the consequences?
On one occasion in Matthew 2:11 the magi bowed (pipto) down and worshipped Him. I guess you could argue that he was a new born and could hardly castigate them for this act of blasphemy, that would be fair I guess. But what about in Jesus' adult life?
Jesus was given proskuneo in Matt 14:33 by those in the boat when Peter walked (temporarily) on water:
32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
This clearly appears to be much more than a simple act of courtesy or deference. I think AWE might be a more appropriate description of their reaction. Were they rebuked? No.
But in Matthew 28:9 it certainly appear that he was given the 'reserved for God' proskuneo.
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
Its difficult to clasp someones feet without first bowing or falling down. Assuming that he was standing upright I suppose and I doubt that matters anyway, its still much more than just deference. Were they rebuked? No. Similarly, this kind of worship occurs in the passage you cited:
” 12In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. Rev 5:12-14 (emph. mine).Again, no rebuke
This ministered to me today.
The Law and the Testimony also bring to mind the Song of Moses and the Lamb concerning the Father in Revelation 15.
May you be established in the knowledge of God through his Son who fulfilled the requirement of the law on our behalf and whom God made a testimony to us.Isaiah 8:11 For the LORD spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying:
12 “Do not say, 'A conspiracy,'
Concerning all that this people call a conspiracy,
Nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.
13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.
14 He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.”16 Bind up the testimony,
Seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait on the LORD,
Who hides His face from the house of Jacob;
And I will hope in Him.
18 Here am I and the children whom the LORD has given me!
We are for signs and wonders in Israel
From the LORD of Hosts,
Who dwells in Mount Zion.19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
I John 1:1-4That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life– 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us– 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that *your joy may be full.
Amen Cubes.
Eternal life is in the son and if we are in the son, then we have his life. We are the branches and he is the true vine.
It really fills me with joy to know that if we are in the son we have eternal life. It is a gift beyond comprehension. I praise God for this.
Isaiah 64:4
Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”Hi cubes and t8,
Rev 15.2f” And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. And they sang the song of Moses, the bondservant of God, and THE SONG OF THE LAMB, saying
' Great and marvellous are your works,O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are your ways, King of the Nations!
Who will not fear,O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For you alone are holy.
For all the nations will come and worship before you
For your righteous acts have been revealed”Who sings the song? The victors.
Whose song is it? That of Moses and Yeshua.
Why? Because they represent the New and Old Testaments as one.Who is the song directed to? The Father.
Who is the Lord God almighty? The Father
Who is the King of the nations? The Father
Who is being worshipped by Moses and Yeshua in this song? The Father
Who will be worshipped by the nations? The Father.So too the worship by the nations in Jerusalem as in Zechariah is that of the Father.
So are Yeshua and his Father the same?
No Yeshua worships his Father as He is greater that him.Marvelous feeling and assurance to know and worship the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nick, I love the break down of Rev 15 as you have it…I hope it helps others to understand too that there is only One True God whom Jesus has called us to worship.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 30 2005,05:24) Hi Greg,
Here is a section of a post I made several months ago (pg 64, Trinity thread). FYI.
Hi Is.1:18:Here's what I am getting: it's a back trail kind of view but hopefully, it should leave the scriptures unbroken.
- Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
- Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
- Neh 9:5 And the Levites, Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said:
“Stand up and bless the Lord your God
Forever and ever!“Blessed be Your glorious name,
Which is exalted above all blessing and praise!
6 You alone are the Lord;
You have made heaven,
The heaven of heavens, with all their host,
The earth and everything on it,
The seas and all that is in them,
And You preserve them all.
The host of heaven worships You- Exodus 32: 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.
Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!”
5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD.” 6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.- Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
- Isa 44:17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, [even] his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth [it], and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou [art] my god.
- Hebrew 5:7 who, in the days of His (CHRIST) flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
- Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
In a strange kind of way, Isaiah 44:17 defines worship:
praying to and regarding someone or thing as your deliverer/Redeemer. And offering oblations and praise or whatever to that end as seen elsewhere in scripture.So the scriptures cited show examples of acceptable and unacceptable worship and who should or should not be worshipped.
1) Joshua worshipped the Commander of the LORD'S army because he acknowledged YHWH in him. Notice that it was only after he identified himself did Joshua worship. I am sure he looked fierce from the start, which prompted Joshua to ask him: are you for or against us?
2) I believe Cornelius' worship of Peter and John of the angel follow this pattern because Cornelius was a God fearing man who could only have wanted to honor Peter as God's emissary and not worship him as YHWH. But this is my speculation.
3) The worship of Christ follows this context but more intensely because he is one appointed to deliver the world. Moreover he has life in himself and can give it to whomever he desires according to the Father's will…since he delights to do his father's will. BUT we know that the authority and life in him was given him by his father. To know that and acknowledge that is to Worship the God of Christ. To deny that knowingly, is to not worship God. The women who clasped his feet and worshipped him knew that he is the Son of God to the glory of the Father.
4) Revelation 5 follows #3. He is the Lamb of God who was slain for our sake, who is worthy, who redeem us to God. God is always acknowledged in him and through him…. that is acceptable worship as the Father is ultimately glorified.
5) Notice that one prays to GOD, not to some other person or thing. And in light of this, we should consider Stephen's statement and other statements to Jesus: Did the people who implored him acknowledge him as GOD Almighty, or GOD Almighty's? I haven't done this study but I would expect it to prove that they acknowledged him as GOD's.
6) Christ while among us, prayed to God. We have no example of the Father praying to Christ. Also the Prayers of the saints in the vials are brought before the very throne of God himself. Now it is to God that the smoke of the incense of their prayers ascended to. Since Christ is at the right hand, we could reason that he smells the fragrance thereof. But since we who love him sit with him in heavenly places and will at the end of the age ..we could smell that sweet aroma too by that sort of reasoning and proximity–as God wills.
But it is to GOD alone that the prayers are directed through Christ (Rev 5:8).So by this back trail method, a little light is shed on the subject for me and I hope it helps others too.
Also, God is glorified, who will not give his glory to another.
Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2005,18:40) Marvelous feeling and assurance to know and worship the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Nick, I love the break down of Rev 15 as you have it…I hope it helps others to understand too that there is only One True God whom Jesus has called us to worship.
Hi cubes,
Many years ago I was much helped by a little book called “Prison to praise”. It taught me how important it is to use our own little temple to praise God whenever we can and in all circumstances.
The last 40 odd psalms are full of the praises of God. We are to enter His gates with thanksgiving in our hearts and enter his courts with praise. That is why the “our Father ” starts with the praise of God.
If only men would spend more time praising their God instead of just using their minds to accumulate knowledge.
It is the acceptable sacrifice we should offer our God. And it lets the Spirit teach us and keeps our focus on above,and on God instead of the misunderstandings between one another we suffer here below.
[1Peter 1.5-9]Yes, Nick. It is a an exquisite privilege we have to praise the holy ones. It helps the heart regain its bearing even in times of adversity and keep the right focus. Then God imparts his oil of gladness to lubricate what would otherwise become a rusty, creaky and hardened heart…keeps us overcoming while we await the glorious appearing of our Lord.
Hi,
The Pharisees were said by Jesus to be sitting in the Judgement seat of Moses. They had authority from God. And yet he called them blind guides and a brood of vipers. He warned the disciples to beware their leaven. They used their authority, as the vine-growers, to mistreat and kill the Son of God. They were classic antichrist. They were religious and perfectionist in their observance but forgot the Spirit of the Law and the Law of Love. They did not recognise the Messiah and judged him a sinner, and hated him for no reason except for the antichrist spirit that was in them.
Nothing has changed. Those that have not received the truth but chosen to follow other doctrines such as oneness or trinity cannot abide the truth. They even do not even know who God is anymore.Hi,
Lk 7.29
” And when all the people and the tax gatherers heard this they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptised with the baptism of John.
But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves , not having been baptised by John”Those who obeyed God's righteous demands were seemingly freed from the influence of the antichrist spirit and were able to feed on the food of the words of Jesus. The baptism of repentance in the name of Jesus does the same today.
Those who refused opposed and hated him unto murder.
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