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Quote (Rudy @ April 21 2005,00:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2005,22:33) There are beings, however, who are greater than man and the Son of God is the greatest of these. But God is greater than he and he worships and serves Him. If deities or gods are those who are greater than man then the Son of God is the greatest of them. But if deities are those we should worship there is only the Father that should be worshipped.
Can you please explain why we should not worship Jesus in light of the following:Matthew 2:11 – And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
Matthew 8:2 – And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Matthew 9:18 – While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 14:33 – Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 15:25 – Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Matthew 28:9 – And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Matthew 28:17 – And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mark 5:6 – But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Luke 24:52 – And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
John 9:38 – And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Man refused worship and exorted not to do it:
Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.The anti-christ & Satan desires worship:
Matthew 4:9 – And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.2 Thessalonians 2:4 – Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Angels refuse worship:
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.Why is it if we are to worship God ONLY that Yeshua allowed it every time and NEVER admonished anyone for it?
Matthew 4:10 – Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mark 7:7 – Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hi Rudy,
These are a good collection of verses.
The angel told John not to worship him but to worship God. (Rev. 19:10) Why did Jesus accept the worship and not forbid it like the angel did? I think your conclusion has to be right.Greg
Quote Hi Rudy,
These are a good collection of verses.
The angel told John not to worship him but to worship God. (Rev. 19:10) Why did Jesus accept the worship and not forbid it like the angel did? I think your conclusion has to be right.Greg
Greg, are you and Rudy prepared to accept David as God too? By your logic you must:
1 Chronicles 21:
“21So David came to Ornan, and Ornan looked and saw David. And he went out from the threshing floor, and bowed before David with his face to the ground.”1 Chronicles 29:
“20Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” So all the assembly blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the LORD and the king.”Just in case you are still confused by all of this, consider this verse:
Luke 1:
“32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.”Why did “Jesus” accept worship? For the same reason that David did: He was (and is) the king.
Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,11:37) Let's take T8's only source for foundation that he has laid, other than misinterpretation of scripture, Proverbs 8: 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
T8 would have you believe that this is the Incarnate Christ, how foolish a thing to suggest. The first verse says it is WISDOM:
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Here is wisdom:
Isaiah 11:2 – And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…
It is one of the seven “spirits of God”:
Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
These are the Spirit of God upon Christ which were without measure, that is in whole, not in part.
John 1:32 – And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
All who read: We are told to come to Him as a child. A child believes with simple faith, T8 would have you question the truth, Listen:
If Jesus says before Abraham was I AM, He means it, all the messianic Jews knew exactly what He meant and did not doubt as you do!
If Jesus says He and His Father (since the incarnation) are one, the Father in Him and HE IN THE FATHER (one God), believe it!
The Pharisees are the ones who doubted and reasoned away what He said due to the hardness of their heart, Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you will in no way enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
The Love, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost to all who believe in God the Son!
Rudy
PS, W.E. Vines dictionary on “Prize”
http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0002222
(2) The Passive sense gives a different meaning to the passage: 'Who though He was subsisting in the essential form of God, yet did not regard His being on an equality of glory and majesty with God as a prize and a treasure to be held fast, but emptied himself thereof.”
Hi Rudy,
We agree scripture saysGod is in Jesus
Jesus is in God.Those statements seem to read to you
God is Jesus
Jesus is God.But look again . That is not what they say and in fact they say the reverse. It I am IN something , like a room or a being ,for example, then clearly I AM NOT that place or being.
Satan entered into Judas. Did Satan “become “Judas?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2005,02:29) Quote (Rudy @ April 21 2005,23:39) Yesua and Yahweh are ONE:
Thanks Rudy. The article was very perceptive and informative and I highly recommend it to all.
Deal, Is 1:18.But you must admit that the scales aren't balanced quite fairly here….you should read about twenty posts in exchange!
I am almost halfway through right now.
Quote (liljon @ April 25 2005,15:26) The Fathers believed that jesus was true god.
Hi liljon,That is a true statement. You are also true liljon. And I am true Cubes as usernames go.
Hope you see the problem with that. God created no two things quite the same. Each is unique even in a myriad like grains of sand. Some are exclusive, like Mount Everest.
But fake antique furniture is sometimes made to look like the real thing…
Yeshua is not a fake reproduction of any thing. He is Truth. But he is not the One True God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2005,18:24) Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,11:37) Let's take T8's only source for foundation that he has laid, other than misinterpretation of scripture, Proverbs 8: 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
T8 would have you believe that this is the Incarnate Christ, how foolish a thing to suggest. The first verse says it is WISDOM:
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Here is wisdom:
Isaiah 11:2 – And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…
It is one of the seven “spirits of God”:
Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
These are the Spirit of God upon Christ which were without measure, that is in whole, not in part.
John 1:32 – And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
All who read: We are told to come to Him as a child. A child believes with simple faith, T8 would have you question the truth, Listen:
If Jesus says before Abraham was I AM, He means it, all the messianic Jews knew exactly what He meant and did not doubt as you do!
If Jesus says He and His Father (since the incarnation) are one, the Father in Him and HE IN THE FATHER (one God), believe it!
The Pharisees are the ones who doubted and reasoned away what He said due to the hardness of their heart, Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you will in no way enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
The Love, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost to all who believe in God the Son!
Rudy
PS, W.E. Vines dictionary on “Prize”
http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0002222
(2) The Passive sense gives a different meaning to the passage: 'Who though He was subsisting in the essential form of God, yet did not regard His being on an equality of glory and majesty with God as a prize and a treasure to be held fast, but emptied himself thereof.”
Hi Rudy,
We agree scripture saysGod is is Jesus
Jesus is in God.Those statements seem to read to you
God is Jesus
Jesus is God.But look again . That is not what they say and in fact they say the reverse. It I am IN something , like a room or a being ,for example, then clearly I AM NOT that place or being.
Satan entered into Judas. Did Satan “become “Judas?
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,11:37) Let's take T8's only source for foundation that he has laid, other than misinterpretation of scripture, Proverbs 8: 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
T8 would have you believe that this is the Incarnate Christ, how foolish a thing to suggest. The first verse says it is WISDOM:
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Here is wisdom:
Isaiah 11:2 – And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…
It is one of the seven “spirits of God”:
Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
These are the Spirit of God upon Christ which were without measure, that is in whole, not in part.
John 1:32 – And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
All who read: We are told to come to Him as a child. A child believes with simple faith, T8 would have you question the truth, Listen:
If Jesus says before Abraham was I AM, He means it, all the messianic Jews knew exactly what He meant and did not doubt as you do!
If Jesus says He and His Father (since the incarnation) are one, the Father in Him and HE IN THE FATHER (one God), believe it!
The Pharisees are the ones who doubted and reasoned away what He said due to the hardness of their heart, Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you will in no way enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
The Love, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost to all who believe in God the Son!
Rudy
PS, W.E. Vines dictionary on “Prize”
http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0002222
(2) The Passive sense gives a different meaning to the passage: 'Who though He was subsisting in the essential form of God, yet did not regard His being on an equality of glory and majesty with God as a prize and a treasure to be held fast, but emptied himself thereof.”
Hi Rudy,
We agree scripture saysGod is is Jesus
Jesus is in God.Those statements seem to read to you
God is Jesus
Jesus is God.But look again . That is not what they say and in fact they say the reverse. It I am IN something , like a room or a being ,for example, then clearly I AM NOT that place or being.
Satan entered into Judas. Did Satan “become “Judas?
Hi Rudy,
The scripture you quote speaks ofThe Father's hand
and Jesus's hand.TWO sets of HANDS
it says also the Father is greater than Jesus
TWO BEINGS
How is it that you are able to see a single unit instead of unity of two?
Take off your selective glasses Rudy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2005,20:12) Hi Rudy,
The scripture you quote speaks ofThe Father's hand
and Jesus's hand.TWO sets of HANDS
it says also the Father is greater than Jesus
TWO BEINGS
How is it that you are able to see a single unit instead of unity of two?
Take off your selective glasses Rudy.
I never said they were the same individual, they are one, but not one and the same.They make up the One God Yahweh!
Hi Is 1:18 and Rudy:
I read the article by Silver and started to make notes but it got to be too long, so I abandoned that route.
I agree in parts.
I disagreed in parts.
I found some parts confusing and felt the writer was confused at times.
I also did not feel that he actually proved that Yeshua is Yahweh.Here is an example of a confusing quote that I agree with in part:
Quote Yahweh is the One who forgives sin. Only He can forgive sin so when Yeshua took it upon Himself to forgive sin He was only doing that which His Father allowed Him to do as He was God as the Father is God. My response to this is that If Yeshua is “God as the Father is God” in the fullest scope of the word, then he should be not dependent or submitting on the Father to give him authority to forgive sin. The very fact that “he was only doing that which his Father ALLOWED him to do” is the point we make that his Father is the Most High God. He agrees with us.
Quote If that concept sounds pagan to you because I am referring to Yeshua and Yahweh as opposed to Yahweh alone I am only following the way the Scripture puts forth who God is. God is One and everything that comes forth from God is God given. If He chooses to do it through the Ruach so be it. If He chooses to do it through His Son, so be it. As God He can do whatever He wants to. If we cannot understand how God presents Himself to us that’s our problem and the reason that everything is so mixed up. My point exactly.
God is One. Everything that comes forth from God is God-given, including Yeshua himself, who is most definitely God-given (John 3:16).No, Jesus is not just a man.
Neither is he the Father or equal to his Father.
The Bible's answer lies somewhere on that continuum at the end that is closer to the Father because he is the only begotten of the Father and is glorified by his Father, and he is the only one who has that distinction, as far as we know.Quote (Rudy @ April 25 2005,20:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2005,20:12) Hi Rudy,
The scripture you quote speaks ofThe Father's hand
and Jesus's hand.TWO sets of HANDS
it says also the Father is greater than Jesus
TWO BEINGS
How is it that you are able to see a single unit instead of unity of two?
Take off your selective glasses Rudy.
I never said they were the same individual, they are one, but not one and the same.They make up the One God Yahweh!
Hi Rudy,
The trinity theory started off as just two and a third was added later. Is this what you profess? Two as one, never separate, never individual beings. Are they of the one substance but with separate personalities and complete equality from eternity?Quote (Cubes @ April 25 2005,20:41) Hi Is 1:18 and Rudy: I read the article by Silver and started to make notes but it got to be too long, so I abandoned that route.
I agree in parts.
I disagreed in parts.
I found some parts confusing and felt the writer was confused at times.
I also did not feel that he actually proved that Yeshua is Yahweh.Here is an example of a confusing quote that I agree with in part:
Quote Yahweh is the One who forgives sin. Only He can forgive sin so when Yeshua took it upon Himself to forgive sin He was only doing that which His Father allowed Him to do as He was God as the Father is God. My response to this is that If Yeshua is “God as the Father is God” in the fullest scope of the word, then he should be not dependent or submitting on the Father to give him authority to forgive sin. The very fact that “he was only doing that which his Father ALLOWED him to do” is the point we make that his Father is the Most High God. He agrees with us.
Quote If that concept sounds pagan to you because I am referring to Yeshua and Yahweh as opposed to Yahweh alone I am only following the way the Scripture puts forth who God is. God is One and everything that comes forth from God is God given. If He chooses to do it through the Ruach so be it. If He chooses to do it through His Son, so be it. As God He can do whatever He wants to. If we cannot understand how God presents Himself to us that’s our problem and the reason that everything is so mixed up. My point exactly.
God is One. Everything that comes forth from God is God-given, including Yeshua himself, who is most definitely God-given (John 3:16).No, Jesus is not just a man.
Neither is he the Father or equal to his Father.
The Bible's answer lies somewhere on that continuum at the end that is closer to the Father because he is the only begotten of the Father and is glorified by his Father, and he is the only one who has that distinction, as far as we know.
Hi cubes,
The article purports to show among other things, that Jesus is Yahweh because he can forgive sin.
Jn 20.22
“Receive the holy Spirit .If YOU forgive the sins of any, their sins are forgiven them;if you retain the sins of any ,they have been retained”
So we too can be Yahweh??The author thinks that because God is Saviour, and scripture is clear that He is, Jesus cannot be the servant sent to do the work as saviour. Those who cannot accept the delegating nature of the Father can always fall into this error.
He says on the first page that a scripture strongly infers that all are in Israel and then teaches it as fact! He says that God is 'in' Jesus [quite so-Coll 2.9 ]but then says that God is Jesus. He needs to think that through as the words are mutually exclusive.
He says that we are all blood relatives of Jesus because we were made through him. That is a nonsequitor. Just because Jesus was involved in our creation does not mean we are his sons does it?
He quotes Jn 14 to suggest that Jesus was referring to the OT commandments as his, but they are not. He has his own NEW commandments-such as “love one another as I have loved you”
He speaks from an OT perspective, as one would expect, trying to justify legal observance again and tries to put the new wine into the old wineskin. There are many more deceptions hidden in this teacher's message.
Are we so insecure in our faith as easily disturbed from our place of safety that we cannot see through these deceptions and would immediately head off to follow another blind man into a ditch??
Quote (Cubes @ April 25 2005,18:34) Deal, Is 1:18. But you must admit that the scales aren't balanced quite fairly here….you should read about twenty posts in exchange!
He he. I like your humour Cubes, you're cool. Thanks for keeping your part of the deal. I will keep mine, as promised, too but it might take a little time, I have some other committments and I want to give you a considered reply.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 26 2005,01:29) He he. I like your humour Cubes, you're cool. Thanks for keeping your part of the deal. I will keep mine, as promised, too but it might take a little time, I have some other committments and I want to give you a considered reply.
That's ok, Is. 1:18: I know how it gets… take your time.Hi Nick,
Also that God had to be the one to die for our sins as a perfect man could not have done it. By God, he meant the Most High God and not his son because his son is in fact him since Yeshua is Yahweh.
This line of thinking leads me to ask: Why would God want to present two or three selves to do what he alone can do and has done, when all along he wants us to know it was he only all along? Makes the mind go 'round in circles –> dizziness.
Whereas if we take the parable of Mark 12:1-11 that Jesus gave concerning the order of things, it's quite straightforward and reasonable.
Quite so dear cubes,
Men prefer the exotic to the simple. It flatters their vanity to seem to figure out stuff. However it is all written and we are meant to find it and not create new 'truth's.We should not be primarily going to the Israelites to learn about Salvation in Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2005,13:24) Hi Rudy,
We agree scripture saysGod is in Jesus
Jesus is in God.Those statements seem to read to you
God is Jesus
Jesus is God.But look again . That is not what they say and in fact they say the reverse. It I am IN something , like a room or a being ,for example, then clearly I AM NOT that place or being.
Satan entered into Judas. Did Satan “become “Judas?
Good post Nick. You ask good questions and your reasoning is clear.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2005,21:45) Quite so dear cubes,
Men prefer the exotic to the simple. It flatters their vanity to seem to figure out stuff. However it is all written and we are meant to find it and not create new 'truth's.We should not be primarily going to the Israelites to learn about Salvation in Jesus.
Yes it appears that what God reveals is not good enough for some. They want to create something in their own image.I use to wonder why men would gravitate to creating idols (whether by their hands or in their mind. I could never see the purpose or reason. I can see it now. They want to be the one's in control. They want to be able to manipulate. Surrender is too scary for them and they are too selfish to die to their desires.
To Rudy
Quote (Rudy @ April 26 2005,08:21) T8 This is your post that started this. 'Till then I had not seen your spirit, this post made it apparent that you are setting your own “private” interpretation as “The Gospel”. That has been the position of all false teachers.
Actually T8, I'm not desperate at all!
The repentant heart will do works mete for repentance, being transformed into the image of Christ, that is obedience! To lay aside all sin (the weight that so easily besets us) and love those around him/her and build them up, not tear them down (that is the race we have to run). 'Till we become a mature “man” in Christ!
Rudy
Jesus rebuked the pharisees did he not. He rebuked them for good reason too. Scripture is used to rebuke when necessary.But Rudy it looks like you are trying to avoid the issue. It will not go away you know. We will all give accounts for what we have taught and said.
Again, the antichrist spirit denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Why do you say that God came in the flesh?
Here are 3 quotes from you:
Quote The reason Christ is THE ONLY “Door” is that God took on flesh, in human form Quote If you reject who He says He IS,the God that took on flesh to save you, the Father in Him and He in the Father, which was and is and is to come, you are in Peril! Quote The God that made you left glory to save you. He,Yahweh the Redeemer, took on flesh to die for the remission of your sins. <!–QuoteEnd]The reason Christ is THE ONLY “Door” is that God took on flesh, in human form (for He was not of the sinful nature of satan, but of God), You said that God took on human flesh 3 times. It is sure that you are teaching this. This can be no mistake or slip up.
Scripture says in 2 John 1:7:
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.Also what is my so-called false gospel? You can only judge that which you know. What is this false gospel and why is it false?
I await your answers, but let me tell you in the mean time what is false. That God came in the flesh. That is false. It was Jesus Christ (the son of God) who came in the flesh.
Jesus Christ came in the flesh and then died for mankind and was raised from the dead. He was then taken up to be with God, seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high. In the manner that Jesus Christ left is the manner that he will return.
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