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In my Debate with Mike we have comepelty streched this arguement to the max,
the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations?
My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,02:10) In my Debate with Mike we have comepelty streched this arguement to the max, the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations?
My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hello SF,From my previous studies on the “Alpha and Omega” I found out that these terms were not in the original manuscripts in Rev 1:8 & 11 and were added later by translators.
And if translators do this they usually do it for a purpose, such as promoting the Trinity.
So, discussions here could results in debates over something that probably isn't “Biblical”.
And as you notice they only occur in Revelation 3 times….4 times for your translation.
When you look at and remove A & O in parenthesis you will see that the rest of the sentence is identifying one of the three mentioned in verses 4 & 5 above:
Rev 1:8 “I am the (Alpha and the Omega),” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The term Alpha and Omega would negate the truth of God “exisitng” in the second part of the sentence, as well as the rest of Scripture that explains who God is.
If God = exists; He has no beginning nor end which “Alpha and Omega” are referring to. By the way, if you haven't noticed the KJV is also the only translation that has “the beginning and the ending” here and in Rev 1:11 and adds many things in other places to support a Trinity Doctrine.
Also look at the difference in your verse and the NASB: Nothing about Alpha/Omega, Beginning/End
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” NASB
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: (KJV)Beward of building a theology on ONE verse (in your case two verses). First, the words were added, Second, it is in direct conflict who God is, Third, If you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, THEN you will jump to the wrongful conclusion that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
Again, God = exists
Jesus = beginning (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15)So, if one wants to be deceived, even though told the words were added, God will allow it….to their own destruction. IMO
What is the purpose of the Thread? To promote the Trinity or the Truth?
If Jesus/Yahshua was Jewish wouldn't he be referred to as the Aleph and Tav? (1st and last letters of the alphabet). I can't imagine John writing to Jewish converted believers in this manner…IMO
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 06 2010,23:34) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,02:10) In my Debate with Mike we have comepelty streched this arguement to the max, the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations?
My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hello SF,From my previous studies on the “Alpha and Omega” I found out that these terms were not in the original manuscripts in Rev 1:8 & 11 and were added later by translators.
And if translators do this they usually do it for a purpose, such as promoting the Trinity.
So, discussions here could results in debates over something that probably isn't “Biblical”.
And as you notice they only occur in Revelation 3 times….4 times for your translation.
When you look at and remove A & O in parenthesis you will see that the rest of the sentence is identifying one of the three mentioned in verses 4 & 5 above:
Rev 1:8 “I am the (Alpha and the Omega),” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The term Alpha and Omega would negate the truth of God “exisitng” in the second part of the sentence, as well as the rest of Scripture that explains who God is.
If God = exists; He has no beginning nor end which “Alpha and Omega” are referring to. By the way, if you haven't noticed the KJV is also the only translation that has “the beginning and the ending” here and in Rev 1:11 and adds many things in other places to support a Trinity Doctrine.
Also look at the difference in your verse and the NASB: Nothing about Alpha/Omega, Beginning/End
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” NASB
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: (KJV)Beward of building a theology on ONE verse (in your case two verses). First, the words were added, Second, it is in direct conflict who God is, Third, If you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, THEN you will jump to the wrongful conclusion that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
Again, God = exists
Jesus = beginning (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15)So, if one wants to be deceived, even though told the words were added, God will allow it….to their own destruction. IMO
What is the purpose of the Thread? To promote the Trinity or the Truth?
If Jesus/Yahshua was Jewish wouldn't he be referred to as the Aleph and Tav? (1st and last letters of the alphabet). I can't imagine John writing to Jewish converted believers in this manner…IMO
The Professor
I already looked that up, that are MANY sources that say that they are, and others that the first two selections of the ALPHA and the OMEGA are not.but thats IRREVELANT,
becuase the last two verses were stated.
in ch 21 and 22. they are scriptural and not refutable.
Im not a Trinitarian Genuis,
MAybe you should just answer the thread and stop being so paranoid.
I never said JEsus was God.
but it makes it clear that since YOU SAID that IF it is Jesus speaking as the alpha and the Omega than he is God.
You said it, i didnt.
Thank you
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,16:25) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 06 2010,23:34) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,02:10) In my Debate with Mike we have comepelty streched this arguement to the max, the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations?
My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hello SF,From my previous studies on the “Alpha and Omega” I found out that these terms were not in the original manuscripts in Rev 1:8 & 11 and were added later by translators.
And if translators do this they usually do it for a purpose, such as promoting the Trinity.
So, discussions here could results in debates over something that probably isn't “Biblical”.
And as you notice they only occur in Revelation 3 times….4 times for your translation.
When you look at and remove A & O in parenthesis you will see that the rest of the sentence is identifying one of the three mentioned in verses 4 & 5 above:
Rev 1:8 “I am the (Alpha and the Omega),” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The term Alpha and Omega would negate the truth of God “exisitng” in the second part of the sentence, as well as the rest of Scripture that explains who God is.
If God = exists; He has no beginning nor end which “Alpha and Omega” are referring to. By the way, if you haven't noticed the KJV is also the only translation that has “the beginning and the ending” here and in Rev 1:11 and adds many things in other places to support a Trinity Doctrine.
Also look at the difference in your verse and the NASB: Nothing about Alpha/Omega, Beginning/End
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” NASB
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: (KJV)Beward of building a theology on ONE verse (in your case two verses). First, the words were added, Second, it is in direct conflict who God is, Third, If you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, THEN you will jump to the wrongful conclusion that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
Again, God = exists
Jesus = beginning (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15)So, if one wants to be deceived, even though told the words were added, God will allow it….to their own destruction. IMO
What is the purpose of the Thread? To promote the Trinity or the Truth?
If Jesus/Yahshua was Jewish wouldn't he be referred to as the Aleph and Tav? (1st and last letters of the alphabet). I can't imagine John writing to Jewish converted believers in this manner…IMO
The Professor
I already looked that up, that are MANY sources that say that they are, and others that the first two selections of the ALPHA and the OMEGA are not.but thats IRREVELANT,
becuase the last two verses were stated.
in ch 21 and 22. they are scriptural and not refutable.
Im not a Trinitarian Genuis,
MAybe you should just answer the thread and stop being so paranoid.
I never said JEsus was God.
but it makes it clear that since YOU SAID that IF it is Jesus speaking as the alpha and the Omega than he is God.
You said it, i didnt.
Thank you
Hello SF,I thought I answered the post well.
If you read my post I said Rev 1:8, 11 were added. They also contradict themselves in the same sentence as I pointed out. God has no beginning nor end. If YOU want to believe God has a beginning that is your right.
Many “sources” say many things….what do other Bibles say about this? Every religion has a Bible or “other sources” that they use to push their ideas.
Chapter 21 & 22 would only apply to Jesus, but not as God.
Here is my direct quote:
Third, “IF” you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, “THEN” you will jump to the “wrongful conclusion” that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
I didn't say that Jesus was God….only those that want to deceive themselves and deceive others would say it…. And would try to confuse others with fraudulent insertions.
I noticed you didn't respond for the reason of trying to put Alpha and Omega into 1:8 and 11. Without them there is no way to confuse people into thinking that Jesus is God….therefore no reason to bring up a dispute. IMO
The Professor
The only translated authority we can truly look to is the King James bible.
When I read Rev 1:8 I read….
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
——–
Many argue that YHVH is The Almighty God and Jesus is The Mighty God….
but here we have Jesus calling himself The Almighty…
Either he is God or he is a blasphemer and christianity is a false religion.
I've been so flip flop about it, but evidence just keeps pointing in either direction…but I think the fault with the understanding is that he was fully god AND fully man…with some verses pointing to his humanistic form and others to his godly being.
————-
If you do not agree in the king james version, then you better start learning Greek and begin reading the bible in that language only.
Apparently in the original hebrew/greek bible the word Jesus attributed to himself at the end of Rev 1:8 is pantokratōr
Strong's Number G3841
pantokratōr translates to these english meanings:
1) he who holds sway over all things
2) the ruler of all
3) almighty: God
———–
Revelations is also the only book in The Bible that had a penalty attached to it, if anyone were to add or take away from the origianl text.
So the chances that anything in Revelations were manipulated in any translation, would be more unlikely than any other book of The Bible.
It would make sense that translations of that book were more careful than any other book.
So again
Either Jesus is YHVH himself in flesh, or Jesus was blasphemer and christianity is a false religion.
There's no more room to believe he was simply a man, mediator, messeneger of God…
he in fact, according to his own claims…was God himself.
So
per
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.c….8Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 07 2010,05:34) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,02:10) In my Debate with Mike we have comepelty streched this arguement to the max, the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations?
My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hello SF,From my previous studies on the “Alpha and Omega” I found out that these terms were not in the original manuscripts in Rev 1:8 & 11 and were added later by translators.
And if translators do this they usually do it for a purpose, such as promoting the Trinity.
So, discussions here could results in debates over something that probably isn't “Biblical”.
And as you notice they only occur in Revelation 3 times….4 times for your translation.
When you look at and remove A & O in parenthesis you will see that the rest of the sentence is identifying one of the three mentioned in verses 4 & 5 above:
Rev 1:8 “I am the (Alpha and the Omega),” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The term Alpha and Omega would negate the truth of God “exisitng” in the second part of the sentence, as well as the rest of Scripture that explains who God is.
If God = exists; He has no beginning nor end which “Alpha and Omega” are referring to. By the way, if you haven't noticed the KJV is also the only translation that has “the beginning and the ending” here and in Rev 1:11 and adds many things in other places to support a Trinity Doctrine.
Also look at the difference in your verse and the NASB: Nothing about Alpha/Omega, Beginning/End
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” NASB
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: (KJV)Beward of building a theology on ONE verse (in your case two verses). First, the words were added, Second, it is in direct conflict who God is, Third, If you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, THEN you will jump to the wrongful conclusion that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
Again, God = exists
Jesus = beginning (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15)So, if one wants to be deceived, even though told the words were added, God will allow it….to their own destruction. IMO
What is the purpose of the Thread? To promote the Trinity or the Truth?
If Jesus/Yahshua was Jewish wouldn't he be referred to as the Aleph and Tav? (1st and last letters of the alphabet). I can't imagine John writing to Jewish converted believers in this manner…IMO
The Professor
First off, if you're going to claim the oiginal hebrew and greek text did not include Alpha and Omega…you should actually post your information because the greek/hebrew versions i've checked on 4 different websites, all include Alpha and Omega.So apparently, you're lying, or you're highly mistaken.
———
Second off, in my above post…Revelations would be the last book to be manipulated by anyone…it is the only book in the bible that held a penalty for manipulating the original text, by adding or removing anything…
So for you to say it was manipulated is highly unlikely.
Apparently in the original hebrew/greek bible the word Jesus attributed to himself at the end of Rev 1:8 is pantokratōr
Strong's Number G3841
pantokratōr translates to these english meanings:
1) he who holds sway over all things
2) the ruler of all
3) almighty: God
———–
Revelations is also the only book in The Bible that had a penalty attached to it, if anyone were to add or take away from the origianl text.
So the chances that anything in Revelations were manipulated in any translation, would be more unlikely than any other book of The Bible.
It would make sense that translations of that book were more careful than any other book.
So again
Either Jesus is YHVH himself in flesh, or Jesus was blasphemer and christianity is a false religion.
There's no more room to believe he was simply a man, mediator, messeneger of God…
he in fact, according to his own claims…was God himself.
So
per
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.c….8Here is what i stated to mike in our Debate.
about the words being omitted in.Quote Hi Mike, I see why they have the death grip on you,
because you hold anything as truth, and you try to squeeze out any way you can when someone makes a point that you disagree with or when you feel cornered.I will use also Reina Valera as another translation text.
11Que decía: Yo soy el Alpha y Omega, el primero y el último. Escribe en un libro lo que ves, y envía lo á las siete iglesias que están en Asia; á Efeso, y á Smirna, y á Pérgamo, y á Tiatira, y á Sardis, y á Filadelfia, y á Laodicea.
here is Youngs literal translation the one that Karmarie likes.
Young's Literal Translation
1:11 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'Noah Webster Bible
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
legoushV egw eimi to a kai to w o prwtos kai o escatos kai o blepeiV grayon eiV biblion kai pemyon taiV ekklhsiaiV tais en asia eiV efeson kai eiV smurnan kai eiV pergamon kai eiV quateira kai eiV sardeiV kai eiV filadelfeian kai eiV laodikeianScrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
legoushV egw eimi to a kai to w o prwtos kai o escatos kai o blepeiV grayon eiV biblion kai pemyon taiV epta ekklhsiaiV tais en asia eiV efeson kai eiV smurnan kai eiV pergamon kai eiV quateira kai eiV sardeiV kai eiV filadelfeian kai eiV laodikeianit seems that even in a different language they reached the same conclusion.
the differences in English translations mean nothing to me, and shouldnt be used as proof.
So if you feel like thats proof than your fooling yourself.
Point being is that Jesus spoke of himself being the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
you know what makes me more upset, that i took your word for it thinking the chance that it might not say that. guess what your wrong. I looked it up on greek, i even took out my greek bible, its clear as day. my fastest record of translating something,
The letters of Alpha and Omega are present. With my own eyes have i seen it.
So all your jibber and gabber means nothing on me.
Just because other translations in english do not agree means nothing.
this is what your trying to do.
Well everyone agrees that 2+2=5, and since everyone agrees thats truth,
Abosolute truth is not based on everyones opinion. because truth is no matter who says other wise, that 2+2=4Either way Jesus reaffrims he is the first and he is the last.
on verse 17, and 18 living forever and ever.anyways mike, i could careless on how, who, or what happen as the english KJV bible was being translated. Its a simple fact that these words were present, if others wanted to delete them thats fine, thats others.
but it is so wrong for you to accuse me of being false.
let me tell you why, the fact that its written in the KJV, and the fact that i read this same verse in different languages (not that you would know) should have given you some benefit of the doubt of what im saying.In other words you should be more understanding, instead of being a heretic.
Note: The greek from west cott i wouldnt take to be truth, it literaly cuts the scripture in half.
Hort and Westcott
legoushV o blepeiV grayon eiV biblion kai pemyon taiV epta ekklhsiaiV eiV efeson kai eiV smurnan kai eiV pergamon kai eiV quateira kai eiV sardeiV kai eiV filadelfeian kai eiV laodikeianlast note to your recent post.
Im not one of them. Im myself.
I just see why they get frustated.in my point of view is that both of ya are wrong. more them than you. but still i get why they atagonize you.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 07 2010,06:42) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,16:25) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 06 2010,23:34) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 07 2010,02:10) In my Debate with Mike we have comepelty streched this arguement to the max, the question is Who is the Alpha and Omega mentioned In Revelations?
My stand is that The Alpha and the Omega is claimed to be Lord Jesus according to his words in revelations.
1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.2.Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.3.Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.4.Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Hello SF,From my previous studies on the “Alpha and Omega” I found out that these terms were not in the original manuscripts in Rev 1:8 & 11 and were added later by translators.
And if translators do this they usually do it for a purpose, such as promoting the Trinity.
So, discussions here could results in debates over something that probably isn't “Biblical”.
And as you notice they only occur in Revelation 3 times….4 times for your translation.
When you look at and remove A & O in parenthesis you will see that the rest of the sentence is identifying one of the three mentioned in verses 4 & 5 above:
Rev 1:8 “I am the (Alpha and the Omega),” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The term Alpha and Omega would negate the truth of God “exisitng” in the second part of the sentence, as well as the rest of Scripture that explains who God is.
If God = exists; He has no beginning nor end which “Alpha and Omega” are referring to. By the way, if you haven't noticed the KJV is also the only translation that has “the beginning and the ending” here and in Rev 1:11 and adds many things in other places to support a Trinity Doctrine.
Also look at the difference in your verse and the NASB: Nothing about Alpha/Omega, Beginning/End
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” NASB
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: (KJV)Beward of building a theology on ONE verse (in your case two verses). First, the words were added, Second, it is in direct conflict who God is, Third, If you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, THEN you will jump to the wrongful conclusion that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
Again, God = exists
Jesus = beginning (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15)So, if one wants to be deceived, even though told the words were added, God will allow it….to their own destruction. IMO
What is the purpose of the Thread? To promote the Trinity or the Truth?
If Jesus/Yahshua was Jewish wouldn't he be referred to as the Aleph and Tav? (1st and last letters of the alphabet). I can't imagine John writing to Jewish converted believers in this manner…IMO
The Professor
I already looked that up, that are MANY sources that say that they are, and others that the first two selections of the ALPHA and the OMEGA are not.but thats IRREVELANT,
becuase the last two verses were stated.
in ch 21 and 22. they are scriptural and not refutable.
Im not a Trinitarian Genuis,
MAybe you should just answer the thread and stop being so paranoid.
I never said JEsus was God.
but it makes it clear that since YOU SAID that IF it is Jesus speaking as the alpha and the Omega than he is God.
You said it, i didnt.
Thank you
Hello SF,I thought I answered the post well.
If you read my post I said Rev 1:8, 11 were added. They also contradict themselves in the same sentence as I pointed out. God has no beginning nor end. If YOU want to believe God has a beginning that is your right.
Many “sources” say many things….what do other Bibles say about this? Every religion has a Bible or “other sources” that they use to push their ideas.
Chapter 21 & 22 would only apply to Jesus, but not as God.
Here is my direct quote:
Third, “IF” you attribute Alpha and Omega to God in this verse, “THEN” you will jump to the “wrongful conclusion” that Jesus, being given this Title too, is God (which is the deception desired by the addition of the words in the first place).
I didn't say that Jesus was God….only those that want to deceive themselves and deceive others would say it…. And would try to confuse others with fraudulent insertions.
I noticed you didn't respond for the reason of trying to put Alpha and Omega into 1:8 and 11. Without them there is no way to confuse people into thinking that Jesus is God….therefore no reason to bring up a dispute. IMO
The Professor
Davidb,Take a look at this scriptures.
Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Actually the Alpha and omega relates to being the first and the last as well.
Thats why they are put togethor.
In other words as well God calls him self the first and the last.
It doesnt say that that God has a beginning nor that Jesus had one, it says that JEsus IS THE BEGINNING, AND THE END, the literal end. it doesnt say there is an end to his existance, it says he is the END.
We already know what he is the end of.Again the point of this thread. Was it Jesus speaking yes or no?
Yes it was Jesus Speaking.
Unless the original hebrew/greek bible, ADDED the verse to a book that was striclty forbidden to be manipulated…
It was definately Jesus speaking.
Therefore, making him God.
because if God is The Source of All things…
logically…he has to be The true beginning and the end.For Jesus to call himself that, he is calling himself God… is he not?
RK,
Be careful of claiming that Jesus is calling himself God.
Jesus went to pains to explain that he is NOT God, he is the SON of God.
Why would he go to all this trouble on earth and then claim the position when he went back to heaven…RK,
[a] GOD is not created…
[a] GOD Cannot CHANGE…
[a] God is ALWAYS [a] GOD!
if [a] God could change then [he] could not possibly have be [a] God in the first place.
God is the OWNER of ALL THINGS – The owner of ALL Things (Power, Authority, Wisdom, Might, Occupies the TOP seat (only one and only big enough for one – “for God does not share his glory with anyone!”), etc.) by definition in a world where NO ONE CAN DIE, is ALWAYS and Was always and Will Always be THE OWNER of EVERYTHING.He gives (read LOANs) as much or as little of that everything to whom he will knowing that he can take it back or must be given it back, in other words, even as he hands it out he STILL OWNS it – he is still WHOLE – even as he apportions that which is HIS to others.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,09:44) RK, Be careful of claiming that Jesus is calling himself God.
Jesus went to pains to explain that he is NOT God, he is the SON of God.
Why would he go to all this trouble on earth and then claim the position when he went back to heaven…RK,
[a] GOD is not created…
[a] GOD Cannot CHANGE…
[a] God is ALWAYS [a] GOD!
if [a] God could change then [he] could not possibly have be [a] God in the first place.
God is the OWNER of ALL THINGS – The owner of ALL Things (Power, Authority, Wisdom, Might, Occupies the TOP seat (only one and only big enough for one – “for God does not share his glory with anyone!”), etc.) by definition in a world where NO ONE CAN DIE, is ALWAYS and Was always and Will Always be THE OWNER of EVERYTHING.He gives (read LOANs) as much or as little of that everything to whom he will knowing that he can take it back or must be given it back, in other words, even as he hands it out he STILL OWNS it – he is still WHOLE – even as he apportions that which is HIS to others.
You say that, but I want you to scripturally prove that he went through pains to show he wasn't God.Secondly…
All your [a] points are nice…and they are true…
but if Jesus is The Same as YHVH then he isn't sharing his glory with another.
because he is the same.
If I said Jesus was a different God equal to YHVH then those points would mean something.
but I am claiming that Jesus is calling himself The Same God as YHVH himself.
Therefore his glory isn't being shared with “another” such as an Idol or made up God…
he is in fact, one and the same…and all glory is justly due.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 08 2010,17:57) Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,09:44) RK, Be careful of claiming that Jesus is calling himself God.
Jesus went to pains to explain that he is NOT God, he is the SON of God.
Why would he go to all this trouble on earth and then claim the position when he went back to heaven…RK,
[a] GOD is not created…
[a] GOD Cannot CHANGE…
[a] God is ALWAYS [a] GOD!
if [a] God could change then [he] could not possibly have be [a] God in the first place.
God is the OWNER of ALL THINGS – The owner of ALL Things (Power, Authority, Wisdom, Might, Occupies the TOP seat (only one and only big enough for one – “for God does not share his glory with anyone!”), etc.) by definition in a world where NO ONE CAN DIE, is ALWAYS and Was always and Will Always be THE OWNER of EVERYTHING.He gives (read LOANs) as much or as little of that everything to whom he will knowing that he can take it back or must be given it back, in other words, even as he hands it out he STILL OWNS it – he is still WHOLE – even as he apportions that which is HIS to others.
You say that, but I want you to scripturally prove that he went through pains to show he wasn't God.Secondly…
All your [a] points are nice…and they are true…
but if Jesus is The Same as YHVH then he isn't sharing his glory with another.
because he is the same.
If I said Jesus was a different God equal to YHVH then those points would mean something.
but I am claiming that Jesus is calling himself The Same God as YHVH himself.
Therefore his glory isn't being shared with “another” such as an Idol or made up God…
he is in fact, one and the same…and all glory is justly due.
Hello RM,Can you help me out? I've recently seen where people are saying that Jesus is YHWH….can you give me some Scriptures that actually say this?
JA is right, the entire “Walk” and “Talk” of Jesus pointed out that he wasn't God….beginning with Satan in the desert when he directs Satan to worship God and Him only, as WRITTEN….to the time he died on the cross and put his spirit into the hands of God, his Father.
Thanks in advance for the verses,
The Professor
The Professor
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 08 2010,17:57) Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,09:44) RK, Be careful of claiming that Jesus is calling himself God.
Jesus went to pains to explain that he is NOT God, he is the SON of God.
Why would he go to all this trouble on earth and then claim the position when he went back to heaven…RK,
[a] GOD is not created…
[a] GOD Cannot CHANGE…
[a] God is ALWAYS [a] GOD!
if [a] God could change then [he] could not possibly have be [a] God in the first place.
God is the OWNER of ALL THINGS – The owner of ALL Things (Power, Authority, Wisdom, Might, Occupies the TOP seat (only one and only big enough for one – “for God does not share his glory with anyone!”), etc.) by definition in a world where NO ONE CAN DIE, is ALWAYS and Was always and Will Always be THE OWNER of EVERYTHING.He gives (read LOANs) as much or as little of that everything to whom he will knowing that he can take it back or must be given it back, in other words, even as he hands it out he STILL OWNS it – he is still WHOLE – even as he apportions that which is HIS to others.
You say that, but I want you to scripturally prove that he went through pains to show he wasn't God.Secondly…
All your [a] points are nice…and they are true…
but if Jesus is The Same as YHVH then he isn't sharing his glory with another.
because he is the same.
If I said Jesus was a different God equal to YHVH then those points would mean something.
but I am claiming that Jesus is calling himself The Same God as YHVH himself.
Therefore his glory isn't being shared with “another” such as an Idol or made up God…
he is in fact, one and the same…and all glory is justly due.
Hello RM,I forgot to put some quotes for you:
Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
(If Jesus were God…) Why did God “exalt” Jesus? He is supposed to be God….who is already exalted.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
How does one GIVE God “authority”? It is already His!
I'd like to sit down with you Scripture by Scripture of what you think “proves” that Jesus is God if possible.
The Professor
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 08 2010,17:57) Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,09:44) RK, Be careful of claiming that Jesus is calling himself God.
Jesus went to pains to explain that he is NOT God, he is the SON of God.
Why would he go to all this trouble on earth and then claim the position when he went back to heaven…RK,
[a] GOD is not created…
[a] GOD Cannot CHANGE…
[a] God is ALWAYS [a] GOD!
if [a] God could change then [he] could not possibly have be [a] God in the first place.
God is the OWNER of ALL THINGS – The owner of ALL Things (Power, Authority, Wisdom, Might, Occupies the TOP seat (only one and only big enough for one – “for God does not share his glory with anyone!”), etc.) by definition in a world where NO ONE CAN DIE, is ALWAYS and Was always and Will Always be THE OWNER of EVERYTHING.He gives (read LOANs) as much or as little of that everything to whom he will knowing that he can take it back or must be given it back, in other words, even as he hands it out he STILL OWNS it – he is still WHOLE – even as he apportions that which is HIS to others.
You say that, but I want you to scripturally prove that he went through pains to show he wasn't God.Secondly…
All your [a] points are nice…and they are true…
but if Jesus is The Same as YHVH then he isn't sharing his glory with another.
because he is the same.
If I said Jesus was a different God equal to YHVH then those points would mean something.
but I am claiming that Jesus is calling himself The Same God as YHVH himself.
Therefore his glory isn't being shared with “another” such as an Idol or made up God…
he is in fact, one and the same…and all glory is justly due.
Hello again RM,I usually write directly and frankly so I preface this post so as NOT to come across in a negative vein.
I see there appears to be a bit of bantering going on that doesn't seem to need be.
I really try to help others as I am a retired teacher.
I'd like to know if you sincerely want to “see” how Jesus is not God, or YHWH?
It is fairly easy:
1- Look at all of JESUS' statements about himself and no one else's. Who does Jesus say he is?
2- Is Jesus the “Son”… of God as Jesus claims to be? If you say “Yes” to this then Jesus cannot be God or YHWH whom he comes from. He is the SON from God. It doesn't matter if you argue the words “born or begotten” because by definition a son is the male offspring of parents and has a beginning point in time different than his parents. In Jesus' case his Father has no beginning, however His son does have a beginning…proving that he cannot be God.
3-What does the rest of the NT say about Jesus?
4- Are you going to allow ONE statement by a man who didn't even believe that Jesus rose from the dead to build a theology making Jesus to be God?? outweigh the other hundreds of factors?
5- What “proof” is needed to make you believe the Bible?
Which is more important in evaluating evidence? Direct or circumstantial? Bible or Opinions?
The Professor
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 10 2010,03:31) bump for david
Hi SF,I'm confused…what does “bump for David” mean? Do I get points?
Hi:
The following scripture is not speaking of Jesus but is speaking of God:
Quote 1.Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.The basis for saying that it refers to God is that it refers back to the following scripture:
Quote Revelation 1:4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
NOTICE VERSE 4 STATES FROM “HIM WHICH IS, WHICH WAS AND WHICH IS TO COME, (VERSE 5) AND FROM JESUS CHRIST”.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi:
The following verse of scripture that uses the term Alpha and Omega is also referring to God and not Jesus:
Quote Rev 21:6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
It refers to God and not Jesus because verse 7 states: “AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON”
Love in Christ,
Marty
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