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Quote (jahman @ Sep. 25 2006,02:23) nick, my understanding about being born of water as from below, is taken from what Jesus meant when saying in John 3:5 “Except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. 6) “That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. This answer sprung in accordance with Nicodemus' question, “can a man enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born.” We are born of water (oh no, my water's breaking:) that is, one of the requirements for entering the kingdom, is to be born into this flesh and blood life. This is suggestive of being born from below. Then we are to be born again a second time, and that of course, in Spirit.
Although corruptible flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, you still must be born into flesh and blood, to qualify for entering in through the door. “I am the door”. JC
Amen!Hi JM,
THen what does the kenosis of Phil 2 mean to you?
What did Jesus have that he had to empty himself of to become like us?
If he emptied himself and became like us what was he like before? Was he as seen on the mountain?Jn 1
“14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “2Peter 1
” 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
You say
“In the beginning was the Word. The beginning of what? Creation, right? What Word? The Word of Jesus?”The beginning is not that of creation but trhe epoch before creation. The Word is the Word of God and not of Jesus who is that Word, the Son of God who was with God in the beginning.
1Cor 8
” 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”
Our God is One.
Christ is our LordHi jm,
You say
“Here is where the doctrine of the trinity of 3-persons-in-One, set out to so-call rectify an understanding. It is perhaps an easier way to assimulate an understanding with the many indicators in scripture.”
God does not need help.
He does not need us to draw from extrabiblical sources to explain Him.Hi jm,
You say
“Concerning the Son Colossians 1:15 says “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature”.Epheasians 1:10 “That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”.
One thing that is clear from these verses is that the Father is not the Son.
Men deny the Son of God by making the Son just another part of God and that is dangerous ground.
So in the dispensation of the fulness of times, God the Father might gather together in one all things in Jesus, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in Jesus?
It is hard for me to imagine how all things in heaven and earth are going to get crammed inside Jesus, but if you insist:)
“One thing that is clear from these verses is that the Father is not the Son”.
And yet is “the brightness of the Father's glory and express image of the Father's person” and when “you seen me, you seen the Father..and so, how can you say show us the Father?”
How do you think of God the Father? How big is he? Does he have a form? Maybe a long white beard?
Hi jm,
God was fully reflected as Spirit in the vessel of His Son. His nature and powers were revealed to His creation through that Son and Thomas learned the lesson of Jn 14 well, that whoever saw and heard the overflowing vessel of Jesus could see the Father at work in him. God still lives in the Son and in those in the Son who live in Him.2Cor 5
” 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
Eph 3
” 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.”
Phil 2
” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ““God was fully reflected as Spirit in the vessel of His Son”.
He was the very image of the invisible God and express image of his Person, not a reflection. Your interpretation of the Son being 'with' God, violates this One God. “beside me (or with me as you've insisted) there is no other”.
God the Father has always remained in the Uncreated mode. The Son as the Word, came from the bosom of the Uncreated, and was manifested as the Creative Word, or first-born image of the Uncreated God.
Indeed all things are by the Word that proceeded out of the mouth of the All-Being. And all things are in that Omni-Being.
In reality, God is fully present right where you and I are, yet still veiled a dimension away. You can even “make your bed in hell, behold, I am there”.
Spiritual imagination transcends the carnal filters we tend to veiw things through.
Before going through the other scriptures you posted nick, I would think it more proper to offer an understanding between the natural man and spiritual man in Christ and of God.
Even when Paul was saying, “the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him” then to add, “but we have received the Spirit of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God” also says, 1 Corinth 2:13 “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual”.
This, my friend, is for carnal christians in christianity 101. As 1 Corinth 3:2 bears this out.
But the born-from-above spirit-man, here has a conceptual starting point. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual is this new creature in Christ (spiritual man) being able to properly discern what the Holy Spirit teaches.
In a word, everything the Holy Spirit can teach you, is already down-loaded in your spirit, if you are a joint-heir in Christ Jesus. The inheritance is already there.
But the truth of the matter, is that most christians including myself, do not practice the true meaning of dwelling in him who indwells us. Inward meditation. Abide in the true vine.
We are taught alot of things, we hardly know anything about this form of spiritual training, but our souls are conditioned in a carnal way, concerning the greatest and beauty of what could truly take place..in those scriptures you quoted.
He is able to do exceedingly abudantly, beyond all we could ask or think…ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKS IN THE MANY MEMBERED BODY (US) ..to him (within not without) be glory in the church, world without end. Amen.
Hi jm,
Is Christ just another manifestation of God and not His Son?What does the Son of God mean to you?
What is this word omnibeing and where is it in scripture?
Just because Christ is the image of God does not preclude his use as a vessel after his emptying. He was a divine being, but not our God who is his Father and our Father, his God and our God. He is still not our God but our Lord.
Heb 1
“1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:”
Hi jm,
An image is a reflection.And God was also in him and He worked through the vessel of Christ.
Col 1
” 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;”
Col 2
” 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”Hi jm,
You say
“But the born-from-above spirit-man, here has a conceptual starting point. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual is this new creature in Christ (spiritual man) being able to properly discern what the Holy Spirit teaches.”
But we know about the Spirit that He does not terach new things of His own initiative from outside of the teachings of Christ, the bible.Jn 14
” 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”Jn 16
“13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. “So whence do you derive your teachings about a triune God, an omnibeing ?
If they are not in scripture they are not of the teaching of the Spirit are they?Hi jm,
You say
“And yet is “the brightness of the Father's glory and express image of the Father's person” and when “you seen me, you seen the Father..and so, how can you say show us the Father?”Thomas learned
Jn 14
“5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
Jn 20
” 28And Thomas answered and said unto him,
'My LORD
AND
my God.' “You ask
“How do you think of God the Father? How big is he? Does he have a form? Maybe a long white beard?”Acts 17
” 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
God's Spirit still infuses His creation that men might recognise him and repent.
The final question requires no comment..
“Is Christ just another manifestation of God and not His Son”?
His Sonship is in the manifestive image of God. Not other than.
“What does the Son of God mean to you?”
The manifested Word of the One God, by whom are all things, and by whom all things consist..being upheld by the power of that Word, or word of his Power. “All things” include the angelic kingdom, the mineral kingdom, the plant kingdom, the animal kingdom, all of creation (the cosmos) and the human kingdom. As the very Power in this Creative Word, all elements are given existence.
In Strong's Concordance, the word “Christ” is said to be an epiteth (used adjectively) of Jesus.
In Rev. where it says, “The kingdoms of this world, have become the kingdoms of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever”. In my opinon, is not talking about the Perian kingdom or even monetery kingdom (the world's system based on mammon) ..but where the lion can lay down with the lamb, war is no more, a new heaven and new earth wherein righteousness (or true being) dwells. The fullness of salvation, wholeness restored. Who knows, maybe even the flowers will sings unforgettable mysteries to you:)
This all, is the acheivement of the lamb who sits upon the throne.
“What is this word omnibeing and where is it in scripture?”
It is in “YHWY”. This is called something like a tetragram? A 4 letter name of God, of which man has translated as Yah-way. Jewish scholars basically say this name means 'world without end'. Now meditate on that til your head explodes..heh.
Some theologian, perhaps Augustine, for what its worth, had said, God is a Being “whose circumference is no where and his center is everywhere”.
If your open-minded enough to consider the basic building blocks from which all things exist within the empirical world; from atoms to molecules, cells..interesting enough these all work from inside its nucleus outward. Everythings a whole within a whole. Designership perhaps?
Hey nick, can you give me a lead to a site, so I don't have to type out scriptures all the time? Thanks-later dude
Hi jm,
The Bible Gateway is on this site. Go to “heaven.net” top rhs of page and you can access it. [bible look up under tools.] CheersHi jm,
God Himself put it more simply saying Jesus actually was His son.2 Peter 1
” 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
I believe him.
Do you not?Hi jm,
You say
“His Sonship is in the manifestive image of God. Not other than”The Word who was with God in the beginning was surely separate from God just as a word is expressed from and does not remain within a being who speaks.
Did Christ come in the flesh having emptied himself?
If he emptied himself what godly powers did he use on earth and when were these first expressed?
Were they his own or did God anoint him with His Spirit and power in the Jordan?
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “Hi jm,
You say
“This all, is the acheivement of the lamb who sits upon the throne.”This is the throne of Rev 22 for God and the Lamb
” 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: ““THen what does the kenosis of Phil 2 mean to you?”
nick, which verse and word are you referring to?
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus” and then proceeds…
This may sound technical, but it was perhaps by no accident that the verse here, which says 'in Christ Jesus' rather than 'in Jesus Christ', is written in such a manner as to bear in mind chronological meaning.
That is, 'Christ Jesus' is hinged upon the meaning of the Word becoming flesh. While Jesus Christ is hinged upon the meaning of the man (heavenly man) becoming God. Post-resurrection. Sounds wild, but in Hebrews 1:8 he says..
“8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
Chronologically set in post-resurrection/ascension terms.
2Peter 1
” 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
This passage which the Apostle Peter records, of course is not the first time a voice came from heaven and said this. Peter and the other disciples/apostles were not present at the Baptism in Jordan. Jesus as the Christ (Anointed One)was yet to began his ministry in power.
When Christ “was found in the fashion of a man” (not necessarily a babe) I imagine it the have been that the “I AM” of Christ fully immersed the 'I'-being of Jesus of Nazereth. Then Jesus fully immersed in the Anointed One, did and spoke out of the “I AM” of Christ.
Jesus had a will of his own, but it was eclipsed by this immersion. Christ's will, is the will of the Father. As far as I can tell, Christ has no will apart from the Father. Which is partially indicative on how my theology forms itself.
So when Jesus says things like Father glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began..while holding true to the monothesim of Jewish beliefs..is how I tend to see it. I do not try to handle the Word of God deceitfully, but of sincerity. So help me God.
“He does not need us to draw from extrabiblical sources to explain Him.”
Nick, it is often said that everything in the N.T. has its origins in the O.T. If that is so, show me where the idea of baptism originated? Where did baptism come from?
Hi JM,
You say
“Jesus had a will of his own, but it was eclipsed by this immersion. Christ's will, is the will of the Father. As far as I can tell, Christ has no will apart from the Father. Which is partially indicative on how my theology forms itself.”The will of Jesus was still present towards the day of his death.
Matt 26
“39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”God is not the anointed one as He has no need to be anointed and none greater to anoint Him. Jesus is the one who was anointed.
Acts 10.38
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Phil 2, Hebrews and Is 53 tells us Jesus left behind all the superhuman abilities he had with God to be just a weak vulnerable man like us, a son of man.
Hi jm,
The baptism of repentance of John was of the Old Testament.Lk 7
” 24And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?25But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. “
Lk 16
” 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. “Hi jm,
Man became God??
Surely a divine being who was with God as an image of God, emptied himself, and partook of our dust.
Jesus was not “appointed God” but acted and acts in God's power and authority.The Father may call whomever He wishes “god” but FOR US there is one God and one Lord Jesus.
1Cor 8
” 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “
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