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I almost entitled this thread 'whatever'. Because I have no clue what is going to come out or where it is going to go. I do not stay well within categorized topic's. Jesus said, “The wind blows where it list's (makes an impression), you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes, so are they that are born of the Spirit.
First a couple of broad strokes.
1. The event at Golgatha and subsequent resurrection, is an event that, although took place at a certain time and place in history, is really an all-inclusive Cosmological event.
2. God is a Spirit. As Spirit, is truth (of the highest form). I also think it appropiate to say that, although everything that is true is also truth..not everything that is true, is truth.
So when scripture tells us that God is above all, through all, and in you all. This is an All-inclusive statement.
Paul says in Ephesians that, 'he who ascended, what is it, but that he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth, that he might fill all things'.
Jesus Christ, as The Savior of the world, had undergone a sacrifice that is all-inclusive. Christ died for the ungodly. It is really the reason he died; to save from the coming impending judgement. He came into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
It is only pharisee types who think he is exclusive. “I thank thee Father that I am not like this sinner-man”..etc.
Now surely, one must accept his sacrifical deed in their hearts, which he undergone for us. But this in no way means that that sacrifice is an exclusive issue.
Now this sacrifice is a cosmological eternal event. Because he had gone down to the lowest of the low, spiritually speaking, there is no place left where he cannot remedy the situation. The cup he did not want to drink and the agonizing struggle he underwent in Gethsemane..to the point of sweating great drops of blood..was the beginning of his passion in my mind. The beginning of his descent.
Why such a great agonizing struggle? To sweat blood is like unheard of. What cause was going on here? And then to pray 'Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me'. If we fast-forward a bit, the last words Jesus said on the cross was, 'Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit'..and he gave up the ghost.
..while in Isaiah we read that 'he poured out his soul unto death' and 'he was cut off, out of the land of the living'. Jesus also said, “fear not him that can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell”.
Jesus did not fear him who could destroy his body. It wasn't about his physical death (as horrible as it was), that he want the cup to pass from him. He would drink into himself every kind of sin ever known to man. He descended within his soul, even to the point of 'soul-death'. The kind of death, of which those who do not accept this sacrifice on their behalf..will be visited upon them. It is a kind of eternal-death. Where every vestiage of glimmer of life, is vanquished.
Many want to relegate his death simply to his physical body. He did judge sin in his flesh as the escape goat. I would submit that, in that 'he poured his soul out unto death' and that 'he was cut off, out of the land of the living; he tasted on behalf of every man, that kind of death, man will have to experience for himself, if he doesn't catch hold of that redeeming life he came out of the grave with.
I would also dare say, that the struggle Jesus went through, was a division between his soul and spirit. He commend his spirit back to the Father, but his soul went down the other way.
In this way, the second Adam was made a life-quickening spirit.
side note: The blood of Christ, in terms of a spiritualized Being within the Godhead in the original sense, is and was, also the life and fire of God.
Man resembles this feature, although in our fallen state, the blood is more a warmth factor, but will one day be revealed as the life and fire of God again.
Scriptures to consider: 'When the tares are taken out of the way, then shall the righteous shine like the sun in his kingdom'. 'They shall be like the stars in the sky, shining forever and ever'……….and the portion in Rev. where there is no need of sun or moon, for the God who is all in all, lights up everything.
“The pathway of the just, shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day”.
“We are born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God whichs abides forever”
“We are redeemed, not by corruptible things such as silver and gold, but by the precious blood of Christ”.
Hi m,
You say
“I almost entitled this thread 'whatever'. Because I have no clue what is going to come out or where it is going to go. I do not stay well within categorized topic's. Jesus said, “The wind blows where it list's (makes an impression), you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes, so are they that are born of the Spirit”Being random is not actually evidence that we are guided by the Spirit. Some are random by nature and the Spirit is of order.
“Now surely, one must accept his sacrifical deed in their hearts, which he undergone for us. But this in no way means that that sacrifice is an exclusive issue.”
We must obey and be reborn from above, by water and the Spirit.
“He descended within his soul, even to the point of 'soul-death'. The kind of death, of which those who do not accept this sacrifice on their behalf..will be visited upon them. It is a kind of eternal-death. Where every vestiage of glimmer of life, is vanquished.
“Many want to relegate his death simply to his physical body.”
“side note: The blood of Christ, in terms of a spiritualized Being within the Godhead in the original sense, is and was, also the life and fire of God.”
“Man resembles this feature, although in our fallen state, the blood is more a warmth factor, but will one day be revealed as the life and fire of God again.”
Umm. Where is this stuff from in scripture, or gnosticism?
“Being random is not actually evidence that we are guided by the Spirit. Some are random by nature and the Spirit is of order”.
“Being random” is the interpretation of your own dna. The Spirit is of order, but of an orderly flow. If we speak of heaven above and earth below, there is orderly wisdom and representation of all things below; in a kind of reflective sense, and as having been created out of that which is from above. Man is a created whole. Wonderfully and fearfully made. Yet this wholeness is composed of many parts and functions. All these parts and functions are in some way inter-connected. We can isolate ..say.. the heart; and believe to say if we were to follow its flow and effects into other parts of the body, we are being random and out of order. But that just might be your own assumption, and not really so.
All things spiritual are also an inter-connected whole.
“We must obey and be reborn from above, by water and the Spirit”.
We are born from below, by water. We are born again by Spirit from above.
“Umm. Where is this stuff from in scripture, or gnosticism”?
Wll it is definitely beyond holding strictly to the foundation, without building anything thereupon.
It appears to me that the one and sole reason scripture is in defence of other religions, is based solely on the death, burial and resurrection. This is the christian imperative.
Please consider that statement in light of your studies.
I tend to veiw the jews as being God's choosen people, purely on the grounds that it was this race of people through whom God would unlock the future prophetic “to everlasting”, through Christ Jesus.
In other words, all peoples, of whatever race and belief systems, have their roots (origins) traced back to the mythological/spiritual. So all origins are rooted in the 'from everlasting'. But they run awol, when it comes to the 'to everlasting' part.
For instance, Logos is a Greek word, self-inherited through their language and origin of use. When Paul encountered their philosophers on Mars Hill in the book of Acts, he first passed an inscription that read “To an Unknown God”, of which he used as a lead to tell them who Christ Jesus is. Then he said, 'In him we live and move and have are being..EVEN AS ONE OF YOUR POET'S HAVE SAID'. He was borrowing this statement, it did not origin from him via the Holy Spirit. Although I doubt not that it was the Holy Spirit who conducted this discourse.
So whenever you hear a christian say, 'In him we live and move and have our being', know that it is not a 'christian' statement, but a Greek poet.
Likewise, the translation for Logos in the chinese bible, is Tao. It is their equivalent use of language.
What makes the bible unique, in comparision to these other religions, is that, not only does it have a prophetic sense running through its entirety..starting from 'thou shalt bruise his head and it your heel' (sorry about the paraphrase, its early) and going through Revelations..but is also strongly based on historicity in time and space.
I find that in studying across the board, it helps me understand the bible better. The bible has not disclosed everything. It actually seems to me that it is written in such a way as to provoke further study. It only hints at some things, of which provokes ones imagination. Even then, engages the imagination anyway. Not the kind of imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, but the imagination that is for the knowledge of God.
Of such is the blood of Christ and its meaning. It takes faith to believe that the blood of Christ is everywhere present. Literally speaking, how much blood is there to go around?
The ancient maxim, “As above, so below', is hinted at in, 'thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven', or even the building of the tabernacle which was shown after a pattern that originated in heaven.
btw, heaven, thought to be a far off distant place, is more biblically interpreted as an elevation. It is of that heavenly, holy higher. Just as God is everywhere present, he is still veiled a dimension away. Sometimes breaking through in greater degrees of presence and glory.
I was taught in bible school, that in accordance with our walk of faith, a process of osmosis takes place within our own blood and that of Christ's blood. Leviticus tells us, 'the life is in the blood'. Is this by accident? In anthroposophy, our ego (I-being).. the thing that gives us our individuality, is in our DNA. We are in the family of God by the incorruptible blood of Christ.
It is the redeeming power in mediating heaven into earth. The Day of the Lord, is an eternal day of holy fire. Preparedness for this day, will not happen from outside in, but from inside-out. I do not think it is by accident that our blood is what supply's bodily heat. Of the 4 elements that make up man, the blood is most conducive to the element of fire.
“I come to cast fire upon the earth”. I imagine it to be that the blood of Christ, in its redemptive powers, will raise the earth into bringing on the Day of fire.
Hi jm,
You say
“We are born from below, by water.”
Do you have any scriptural basis for this statement?“He was borrowing this statement, it did not origin from him via the Holy Spirit.”
Is anything written by Paul without the unction of the Spirit?“What makes the bible unique, in comparision to these other religions, is that, not only does it have a prophetic sense running through its entirety..starting from 'thou shalt bruise his head and it your heel' (sorry about the paraphrase, its early) and going through Revelations..but is also strongly based on historicity in time and space.”
We should not treat the bible like a collection of interesting philosophical and cultural sayings but as the Words of the Spirit of God to men. Every word is tested and pure and we should not fall into the trap of theology that we are greater than those words but need to submit to them in fear of the Awesome Creator Who is their source.
hey Nick, I'm going to fore-go commenting on your last statement, nothing personal of course. I feel impressed to uplift the name of Love, as scripture impresses.
The fruit of the Spirit, is Love. Under her umberella, comes the joy and peace in knowing. Angelic spirituality, the effects of that world, is to meditate upon the things that are true and lovely. Her wisdom is first pure..then peaceable, gentle and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without hypocrisy, without partiality..And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
I would my heart make peace. Blessed are the peacemakers, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
The Holy Spirit is righteousness, peace and joy. We are told to follow after the things which make for peace, and esteem our brother as better than ourselves. In honor, preferring one another, and not to doubtful distributions.
The Power of Spirit, in Love, is ever rising one anothers spirits. Heavy is the call to edification. The glories of heaven await. All of creation groans. We are a royal-priesthood. As preists of Spirit..are to get to know ourselves, in the ways of God's (Jehovah for some, if not in one way of naming God for others).
I praise with thee my Lord, my brother. My beloved of God. I sit with you in the heavenlies. Loving, and casting out fear. The name of the Lord is a strong tower. The righteous run into it, and they are safe.
Come Lord, even so come. The dark is getting dark and so your light you come. Redeem our fallen tendencies. Restore our souls beside your still waters. Create a space of grace within us. Heal our hurt and pain. You are most beautiful.
My hart is panting after your water brooks.
Hi jm,
“I was taught in bible school, that in accordance with our walk of faith, a process of osmosis takes place within our own blood and that of Christ's blood.”
Does the heavenly body have blood?
1 cor 15
” 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. “
Will we not rather be like the angels?
Lk 20
” 34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. “
Nick, I am surely not advocating that the blood of corruptible man will inherit the kingdom. But that it is through the incorrutible blood of Christ, that we inherit the kingdom.
Read Hebrews 9&10.
I'll only quote 9:23 “It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purged with these; (blood) but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these”. Speaking of Christ's sacrifice and his flesh and blood.
Again, its another kind of hint that the incorruptible blood which shall cause us to bear the image of the heavenly, is of holy fire. “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus…by a new and living way..
It seemingly is that agent which transforms the corruptible into the incorruptible, the earthly into heavenly, or angel-like. “Are they (angels) not all flaming spirits?”.
An indicator from the fire side.
Mark 9:49 “For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost its saltness, wherewith will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another”.
The key word here, in terms with being 'salted with salt', is sacrifice. Therefore sacrifice is good, as salt is good. “commit your bodies a living sacrifice” for “our light affliction, which is but for a moment, works for us, a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory”(holy fire) “always bearing about in the body, the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also might be revealed in us”.
Is it not interesting that Jesus Christ, just prior to his sacrifice, said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee”??
The Father's glory is in his will, even if it means physical death. Gotta go.
Hi jm,
Matt 27.51
“51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;”
Heb 10
“19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;”
Heb 6.19
” 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;”
Heb 10
” 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”Heb 10
” 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. “By the sacrifice of the Lamb, Jesus, the priest, Jesus, brought his own blood into the temple as an offering for all men. His flesh was torn tearing the barrier between God and man and now men whose souls are cleansed with that blood and with their bodies cleased through baptism can approach the throne of the Awesome God.
Some thoughts.
Whereupon once we walked as of Adam in the cool of the Day, under an innocence sky; now walk to know the Rock that is higher than I.
When Adam chomped into the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, he stepped into the fruit of this dualistic world. Within his own being, that act can be said to be, 'the-error-of-the-I'.
Perhaps it could be said that only two Wills exist in the sea of humanity. And of either of these wills, does man partake and participate.
“Love not the world, neither the things of the world..for all that is of the world..the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life…is not of the Father, but is of this world..and the world passes away and the lust thereof; but he that does the Will of the Father abides forever”.
Secularism is said to be the will of man. The bible indeed speaks of the will of man, for man indeed has a will. But the will of man, subjectively experiences its existence, in a world permeated by two other existing wills.
The will of God kicked everything off. Even to the ordaining of the blood shed sacrifice of his son before the foundations of the world. “He works all things after the counsel of his own will”.
Of the skimpy amount of scripture we have on the origin of evil and the will that initiated it, takes for its diving board..the, “I will ascend above of the stars of the Most High” speech even somewhere in Isaiah I believe. Commonly known as the rebellion in heaven.
This 'will' then dressed in the mythological language of a serpent..cast its form of words..of which Eve yeilded, and in turn Adam, that subsequently caused a split in his own being; thus perceiving himself naked and ashamed and the hiding of himself. The will of sin had entered the will of man. Now no longer abiding under an innocent age.
Guilt and the guilty would now haunt the world of the will of man. On this same tenure, rings the longing in man. The longing for wholeness. Like a faint rememberance from deep within, we long for our rightful higher origin. The longing for innocence, unscathed by any world below. To be fully restored. In a word, the true meaning of salvation.
But there is so much to say about the Logos, the various origins of religions and intent of God through out it all. It all spawned from an idea within the will of God.
Heresy, or heretic, from the way I understand it, was of that polar depiction that represented itself opposite of that which represents itself as universal. I believe Strong's gives the clue words of 'a party, or sect'..as far as heretic is concerned. I do not believe that the Universal Origin (Logos) which serves as a kind of backdrop for all origins, is necessarily of the select notions of any one party or peoples of heritage.
You might say, all streams have originated from the Supreme Original (Logos) and flow to The Logos of the Cross.
It's really quite ridiculous to try to get so much in one post, and time and energy is of the essence. When Paul said, “The preaching of the cross is to the greeks foolishness”..etc. That particular word for 'preaching' there, is in the greek original, 'Logos'. Strong's Concordance gives many-sided words to define and coin what logos comprises.
Anyone care to want to define this word in your own understanding?
nick, my understanding about being born of water as from below, is taken from what Jesus meant when saying in John 3:5 “Except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. 6) “That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.
This answer sprung in accordance with Nicodemus' question, “can a man enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born.” We are born of water (oh no, my water's breaking:) that is, one of the requirements for entering the kingdom, is to be born into this flesh and blood life. This is suggestive of being born from below. Then we are to be born again a second time, and that of course, in Spirit.
Although corruptible flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, you still must be born into flesh and blood, to qualify for entering in through the door. “I am the door”. JC
Hi jm,
It has been touted many times that birth is being born of water but I see several problems and some are as follows.To no audience would being born of water be a new demand.
There is no scriptural support for the concept-no other birth in scripture is said to be of water and for a truth to be established there needs to be two or three witnesses[2Cor 13]
Hi jm,
Did Adam have his own will?
I believe so.So there is God's will and his will.
God taught Adam His will
but Adam preferred to follow the will of his wife
who had followed the will of Satan, the serpent.Scripture tends to divide men then by the will of God and the will of Satan from then on.
There are two kingdoms and two kings.
We must come out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
Natural Men are ruled by the spirit of the air, the god of this world and all who are not in Christ will follow the beast.
Jesus chose instead to follow absolutely the will of God and we can be found in him for eternity if we come out of Satan's control and are reborn into the Son by water and the Spirit.
Hi jm,
You say
“You might say, all streams have originated from the Supreme Original (Logos) and flow to The Logos of the Cross. “
Do you believe the Logos is the Father??No I do not believe the Logos is the Father, any more than I believe my word is my will.
The Logos is the Word of the Father. The Father (in N.T. doctrine) is the Will of God. Again, although these be an indivisible whole, there is a distinction in operation.
So what about the Logos? Have you any thoughts as to what the Logos is or comprises?
Hi jm,
You say
“The Father (in N.T. doctrine) is the Will of God.”
Sorry but the Father is God not just an aspect or an ability of God.Jn 8.54
” 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:'And Jesus is the Son of that God.
It is because of Jesus, the Son of Man, ..then to be anointed by the Anointed One, as becoming flesh, whereby “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” was inaugurated, giving the Father-Son relationship and place.
The Jesus found in the temple and about his Father's business, fell under the same banner as the children of Isreal as being the son's and daughter's of God. I still contend that it wasn't until the Spirit of God lighted upon him, that the voice of heaven endorsed his (Jesus') Sonship as the Christ of the living God.
Then after, the relationship between the Father and Son was an inside-out relationship. “The Father in me, he does the works”.
There is one scripture that says, because he had spoken the words of God, therefore God had given him the Spirit without measure. It hardly makes sense to believe he is a Spirit without measure already, and then have it given to him, does it not?
Jesus also said, “I of my own self can do nothing”. While The Word had created and sustains existance for angels and all physical reality, including the souls of man. That is something.
Hi jm,
Who is the anointed One?
An anointing is done by a greater being to a lesser.
Is there a greater being than God Himself?Hi jm,
Is Jn 3.34 the verse you mean?
” 31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.”
So it not because he spoke the words of God that he was given the Spirit without measure but speaking those words is surely further evidence that he was the promised Messiah.
Quote (jahman @ Sep. 25 2006,07:43) It is because of Jesus, the Son of Man, ..then to be anointed by the Anointed One, as becoming flesh, whereby “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased” was inaugurated, giving the Father-Son relationship and place. The Jesus found in the temple and about his Father's business, fell under the same banner as the children of Isreal as being the son's and daughter's of God. I still contend that it wasn't until the Spirit of God lighted upon him, that the voice of heaven endorsed his (Jesus') Sonship as the Christ of the living God.
Then after, the relationship between the Father and Son was an inside-out relationship. “The Father in me, he does the works”.
There is one scripture that says, because he had spoken the words of God, therefore God had given him the Spirit without measure. It hardly makes sense to believe he is a Spirit without measure already, and then have it given to him, does it not?
Jesus also said, “I of my own self can do nothing”. While The Word had created and sustains existance for angels and all physical reality, including the souls of man. That is something.
Hi jm,.
What then do you make of 1 Jn 4.9?“8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
Surely the one who was sent into the world was already a son when he was sent?
Did Jesus accept that the children of Israel were sons of God?
Jn 8
” 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”
No he told them they must be reborn to become adopted sons along with us gentiles.
nick, sometimes it is not profitable to carry on about such matters, but now, on the table (the boards) is much to answer for. And not much of it is of anything already gone over. The way I've come to my present understanding, is in keeping with what I see as a chronological unfoldment.
That unfoldment, in the discussion at hand, may well begin with John1:1. I suppose our interpretations here are already in disagreement. That's okay in my book. But when Jesus as the Anointed Word said, Hear Oh Isreal, the Lord our God is One” did not mutter under his breath, 'oh yeah, and let's not forget his Son'.
Here is where the doctrine of the trinity of 3-persons-in-One, set out to so-call rectify an understanding. It is perhaps an easier way to assimulate an understanding with the many indicators in scripture.
Concerning the Son Colossians 1:15 says “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature”.
Epheasians 1:10 “That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”.
In the beginning was the Word. The beginning of what? Creation, right? What Word? The Word of Jesus? If you do not follow a chronolocial order and sequence of events, you can throw the Rev. scripture back at me, where his name is the Word of God. But I think it is here where confusion is created.
So much to carry on about here, and I got to get my day going. So I'll leave you with this thought. Notice how Jsus was speaking of himself in the third person. Notice also that God had 'given' him not the Spirit by measure. Notice that it was not something he already was, but was something given to him.
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