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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,18:39) Hi Stu,
You say it cannot be based on the shifting winds of science as your evidence?
You are not the judge of truth according to your myopic view.
Others see further and deeper.
You know, I really think they don't. I see painfully dull arguments about the trinity, lists of suffering people whose friends think prayer actually makes more of a difference than a placebo (why not just say 'I am thinking of you', it has exactly the same effect), piles of pure ignorance about science. You would think such 'deep seers' would find all this pretty simple, but none can even accurately describe evolution, whether they 'believe' it to be true or not.The 'philosophy' that people stick and paste here is usually just self-indulgent ranting against all they see as evil. I think myopic is a word to be truely understood when the religious fundamentalist admires his own righteousness in the mirror.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,19:04) Hi Stu,
Since your foundation of science you have admitted to be shaky and unreliable
why would your offer it as more useful to us than the precious words of our creator God?
I didn't say it is shaky and unreliable. Have you never benefitted from an antibiotic? Science works. It's strength lies in its uncertainty. The weakness of religion is its certainty. Faith has never been shown to be able to do anything that cannot be equally accomplished without it. I'm not sure where that leaves your precious deity's words. Inspiring precious intolerance is the obvious response.Stuart
Hi stu,
You try but you cannot analyse faith.
Sheep are led by shepherds without being necessarily aware of where or why.Stu, you do not understand because you are perishing.
2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.I am sure that you will agree that you are perishing and that you have no current hope of avoiding that.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2007,21:44) Stu, you do not understand because you are perishing. 2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.I am sure that you will agree that you are perishing and that you have no current hope of avoiding that.
I'm sorry? Are you a medical specialist t8?I know the motivation that comes from an awareness of a limited lifespan. What I find astonishing is the delusion some have that they can cash in their points and somehow cheat death. Well I hope you are living an enjoyable and productive life full of the meaning you yourself have given it, because objectively that's all there is, and it's a good thing too.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,19:34) Hi stu,
You try but you cannot analyse faith.
Sheep are led by shepherds without being necessarily aware of where or why.
I started a thread in which I invited believers to explain their faith to me, and it demonstrates that not even the faithful can analyse faith coherently, leading me to the conclusion that faith is special pleading for something that doesn't really exist.The sheep very often get fleeced by the shepherd.
Televangelists are particularly good at this.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
We do not claim to be clever or intellectually superior.
We have just found writings which we are convinced are from a great and awesome God.
The claims in these books are so extreme that they demand either to be accepted or rejected.
We have accepted them and found obedience to them produces blessings now which indicate the promises also offered will also be true.Quote (Stu @ Dec. 18 2007,22:01) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2007,21:44) Stu, you do not understand because you are perishing. 2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.I am sure that you will agree that you are perishing and that you have no current hope of avoiding that.
I'm sorry? Are you a medical specialist t8?
No. It is common knowledge that we die and the older we become the closer it is.
As we head toward the day of our death, our bodies age more and more until they cannot sustain us any longer.
The skin loses it's elasticity causing wrinkles, our hearts eventually become weaker, and other things in the body eventually stop working.
Like a car, the older it gets the greater the wear and tear and the more money you need to spend to fix up the parts. Eventually the car ends up in the scrap heap.Why do I need to be a medical specialist to say such things?
Do I need to be a mechanic to drive a car?
Do I need to a professional cook to make a vegemite sandwich?Your belief obviously assumes that you die and you will be no longer.
Therefore you admit that you are perishing and have no hope of life eternal.
But we have hope.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 18 2007,02:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,19:04) Hi Stu,
Since your foundation of science you have admitted to be shaky and unreliable
why would your offer it as more useful to us than the precious words of our creator God?
I didn't say it is shaky and unreliable. Have you never benefitted from an antibiotic? Science works. It's strength lies in its uncertainty. The weakness of religion is its certainty. Faith has never been shown to be able to do anything that cannot be equally accomplished without it. I'm not sure where that leaves your precious deity's words. Inspiring precious intolerance is the obvious response.Stuart
Stu,I'm not positive, but somewhere I read that faith-based recovery (from drugs and alcohol) seemed to be much more effective than secular forms of the same. I will see what I can dig up.
Hi Tow,
Did you not know medicine is an aspect of the mercy of God for all men.
Those who are sick still need a physician.Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2007,09:48) Your belief obviously assumes that you die and you will be no longer. Therefore you admit that you are perishing and have no hope of life eternal.
But we have hope.
Hi t8OK, I get you now. I thought you might have been telling me I was perishing in the metaphorical / spiritual sense you have used other similar words before.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,07:43) Hi Stu,
We do not claim to be clever or intellectually superior.
We have just found writings which we are convinced are from a great and awesome God.
The claims in these books are so extreme that they demand either to be accepted or rejected.
We have accepted them and found obedience to them produces blessings now which indicate the promises also offered will also be true.
So you would be infavour of keeping a strictly secular society, in which all have the freedom to find their own direction in the way that you have found yours, and no-one is compelled to conform to the requirements anyone else's faith?Stuart
Hi Stu,
Of course-all kinds.
The removal of the false religious domination over secular society would be most welcome.
Having recently spent time in Europe it is amazing to see how the spires of catholicism and the other religions still tower over and intimidate.
Faith does not needs large buildings and fancy dress and fine music.
Neither is self perfectionism and empty works that relevant.
It works better simply and one to one.Quote (Stu @ Dec. 19 2007,17:40) Hi t8 OK, I get you now. I thought you might have been telling me I was perishing in the metaphorical / spiritual sense you have used other similar words before.
Stuart
Even regarding that Stu.If you do not believe in spiritual senses, then you obviously do not have any.
The conclusion is that it has perished or you never had it.
If you had it, you would believe in it. Simple as that.
If you saw a Martian for example, then you would believe in Martians. If you never saw a Martian, then you wouldn't necessarily believe. I take it that you have never had a spiritual experience or had hands experience regarding anything that was not carnal.
That would seem obvious from what you are teaching.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,13:39) Hi T8,
He has never seen a microbe or a molecule
Yet he believes in them.
Faith.
I have seen a microbe, and I have seen a scanning tunneling microscope picture of atoms (from which you make molecules, obviously). I have also read (parts of) Lord Rutherford's paper in which he demonstrates experimentally the structure of the atom. I have, as a student, performed experiments with measured results that would not be possible if matter was not atomic. It is not a matter of faith at all. These are demonstrable facts.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,11:25) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 19 2007,17:40) Hi t8 OK, I get you now. I thought you might have been telling me I was perishing in the metaphorical / spiritual sense you have used other similar words before.
Stuart
Even regarding that Stu.If you do not believe in spiritual senses, then you obviously do not have any.
The conclusion is that it has perished or you never had it.
If you had it, you would believe in it. Simple as that.
If you saw a Martian for example, then you would believe in Martians. If you never saw a Martian, then you wouldn't necessarily believe. I take it that you have never had a spiritual experience or had hands experience regarding anything that was not carnal.
That would seem obvious from what you are teaching.
This is all sophistry, t8. Since you cannot know for sure what the experiences I have had felt like, (and vice versa), you can't claim that you have exclusive access to what you call 'spiritual' things. We would have to ask a believer who used to be atheist, or a non-believer who used to have religious faith to compare the two experiences for us, and even then there are two many uncontrolled variables for a reliable answer to be gained. Given the likely similarity of human experience, I would say you are talking rubbish to claim that you have particularly special spiritual feelings because of your religion, and that others cannot have a non-religious equivalent.There is nothing special about your magic club.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 20 2007,17:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,13:39) Hi T8,
He has never seen a microbe or a molecule
Yet he believes in them.
Faith.
I have seen a microbe, and I have seen a scanning tunneling microscope picture of atoms (from which you make molecules, obviously). I have also read (parts of) Lord Rutherford's paper in which he demonstrates experimentally the structure of the atom. I have, as a student, performed experiments with measured results that would not be possible if matter was not atomic. It is not a matter of faith at all. These are demonstrable facts.Stuart
Hi Stu,
So you have faith in the instruments, the scientists and the results they produce?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,18:26) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 20 2007,17:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,13:39) Hi T8,
He has never seen a microbe or a molecule
Yet he believes in them.
Faith.
I have seen a microbe, and I have seen a scanning tunneling microscope picture of atoms (from which you make molecules, obviously). I have also read (parts of) Lord Rutherford's paper in which he demonstrates experimentally the structure of the atom. I have, as a student, performed experiments with measured results that would not be possible if matter was not atomic. It is not a matter of faith at all. These are demonstrable facts.Stuart
Hi Stu,
So you have faith in the instruments, the scientists and the results they produce?
No.Stuart
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