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Translation A:
Psalm 104:4World English Bible (WEB)
4 He makes his messengers[a] winds;
his servants flames of fire.
Footnotes:Psalm 104:4 or, angels
Translation B:
Psalm 104:4New English Translation (NET Bible)
4 He makes the winds his messengers,
and the flaming fire his attendant.Translation C:
Psalm 104:4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
4 who maketh his angels spirits;
his ministers a flaming fire:The first test:
Hebrews 1:7World English Bible (WEB)
7 Of the angels he says,
“Who makes his angels winds,
and his servants a flame of fire.”[a]
Footnotes:Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:7New English Translation (NET Bible)
7 And he says of the angels, “He makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire,”
Hebrews 1:7Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
All three clearly take the traditional translation when they quote it but only the AV version of the King James is consistent in its translation when doing so.
So does the traditional translation, Translation C, actually fit the context. The answer is no as both the clauses maketh “his angels spirits” and maketh “his ministers a flame of fire” are referring to angels as the writer was not quoting verses since they did not exist at that time.
Translation B seems to be even a weaker possibility as it does not even seem to speaking of angels at all.
Translation A tests true as when in the context of Hebrews 1:7 both sides are speaking of angels though one sides is speaking of angel messengers and the other side is speaking of angel servants.
Test 2:
the words spirits vs winds.
Since “flames of fire” symbolizes zeal
winds also are known to symbolize speed as in the simile “as fast as the wind”
spirit symbolizes spirited as “full of energy, enthusiasm, and determination” which is the definition of that word found at Google search on October 25, 2014.Either works in this case though I favor the first as speed is desirous in a messenger. Isaiah 31:3 uses the word that can be either translated spirit or wind in regard to horses and I believe that it should also be translated to wind there though I have not found a translation that agrees with me. My reasoning is speed is desired in horses.
Test 3
Hebrews 1:8World English Bible (WEB)
8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.Since he is speaking of a position then it seems to follow he was speaking of positions held by angels as well. In Psalms 104:4 those positions are messengers and servants. Angels is not a position.
Feel free to test what I wrote and the various translations. Try to make it clear what your reasoning is and present your work.
Hi KW,
Mt 13.52
Every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household who brings out of his treasure things new and old.
The new interprets the old.
Old is often preferred
Nick and Gene,
see my post about messengers being as fast as the wind and servants being being on fire.
Hi KW,
Have you any scriptural support for your interpretations of flames of fire and wind or are they just your own logic expressing itself again?
Hi KW,
The way of testing scripture is not by common English usage or apparent inference or human logic.
Scripture proves scripture.
Nick,
In this case I am testing an obviously flawed interpretation of Scripture. Only people who choose embrace foolishness and so choose to blind themselves to the truth hold on the flawed teaching that this passage from Hebrews supports the idea that angels are composed of spirit. They hear what they want on the passage and blind themselves to words in the passage that do not fit what they want to hear.
Even the Pharisees kept their mouths shut when they had nothing worthwhile to say instead of letting nonsense gush forth from their mouth.
You have yet to point to one passage of Scripture that condemns logic and yet you keep preaching its condemnation as your doctrine. Scripture condemns the godless wisdom and philosophies based on the principles of sinful man. It does not condemn godly wisdom or philosophies based on the principles of God. Stop using the words of unbelievers and instead embrace the words of godly men.
Jesus teaches us to be “hot” as in “flames of fire” and the angels of God are hot and not cold or even lukewarm.
Hi KW,
So you define your own position as sound while condemning all others?
You cannot produce any scriptural support and when challenged start attacking folk?
Nick,
I condemn the choice to adhere to position based on the desire of the flesh.
I condemn the choice to condemn reason even though the person knows that Scripture does not condemn it.
I condemn the choice to pick words out of a sentence that agree with an unsound and ignore those that do not.
Why would any of that offend you?
Nick,
I already use Scripture.
Psalm 104:4World English Bible (WEB)
4 He makes his messengers[a] winds;
his servants flames of fire.
Footnotes:Psalm 104:4 or, angels
I also point out the only way that both sides of Paul’s quote of Hebrews 104:4 refer to spiritual beings.
I even gave context for “flames of fire” being zeal.
Revelation 3:16Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
God’s angelic servants are hot as in flames of fire.
Those that want to hear angels are composed of spirit blank out the words “his servants flames of fire” because they are not what they want to hear. The also take the phrase out of context as it is written in Hebrews. Those translators that choose to do the same just introduce an obstacle before those individuals that read their translation that God did not put in the way. It is an obstacle that the Spiritual will get by.
Nick,
What I hear is that you do not want to give up your traditions or cherished ideas no matter what Scripture says.
Among Gill’s first word in his commentaries about Psalms 104:4 are:
The angels are spirits, or spiritual substances, yet created ones; and so differ from God, who is a spirit, and from the Holy Spirit of God, who are Creators and not creatures; angels are spirits without bodies, and so differ from the souls or spirits of men, and are immaterial, and so die not;
On the other hand, in order to prove he was not a spirit, which to say immaterial, chose to first allow his disciples to touch him and then when that did not convince them he ate food in front of them.
Those that believe Jesus proposed honest tests also believe that any being that can be touched and eats is not a spirit. When the two angels were in Lot’s they ate with his household and one of them reached and touched Lot in order to pull him back from the door.
Those that believe the tests Jesus proposed and the account of the angels in Lot’s do not believe Gill’s claim that angels are spirits.
Gill is blind to the evidence of his own disbelief.
Hi KW,
The similarities between the HEAT of Rev 3 and the FLAMES of Ps 104 are close but not parallel.
The moon is similar to the sun as they both give light and are round heavenly bodies but they are nowhere near the same.
You can have heat without flames.
But if you had chosen Rev 11.5 you would have been closer
“And if anyone wants to harm them fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies..”
Heb1.7 shows that ps 104 refers to angels and heb 1.14 shows they are spirits.
Of course though angels have appeared in fleshlike form and eaten with men few would claim that was their normal form.
Nick,
Hebrews 1:14Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
This is not evidence that angels are spirits as it can be interpreted more than one way in English.
In another place it is written:
Proverbs 11:13 International Standard Version
Whoever spreads gossip betrays secrets, but the trustworthy person keeps a confidence.
The word person is translated from the Hebrew rū·aḥ, the short definition of which is spirit.
The meaning of spirit in Hebrews 1:14 is unclear if it is taken out of context.
The teaching that angels are made of spirit is a teaching based on such passages. It is like a house built on shifting sands.
Nick,
Of course though angels have appeared in fleshlike form and eaten with men few would claim that was their normal form.
There are spiritual creatures that do not bear the likeness of men but as far as I know messenger angels do bear the likeness of men in most if not all cases. There are some case where Scripture is unclear because messenger angels are often called simply messenger and the context tells you if it is and angel or not. In other cases angels are not described.
What we know is that the angels with Lot are shown not be made of spirit because like Jesus they revealed they could both be touched and eat. Jesus did not present the option that he was the spirit that changed into the form of a flesh and bone human being. The tests he proposed would have been a lie as he still would have been a spirit, though shape changed into the appearance of a man.
Scripture does not either say or deny angels have the power to change their shape. It does teach us they are usually hidden from our sight and reveal to us when God chooses. We are also taught they have a tangible presence that can be avoided. There is some evidence they have a static form since there likeness was modeled and placed in the temple. The temple angels were not messenger angels.
Hi KW,
Somehow you think your opinions are more sure than the shifting sands you apportion to others.
Where did you gain such faith in yourself?
Ought you not find deeper foundations?
Hi KW,
Messenger angels?
Does not angel mean messenger?
You think the scriptures reveal that angels are NOT OF SPIRIT because they are sometimes shown eating and being able to be touched?
Thin evidence based on very few examples and a lot of opinion.
Even satan can APPEAR as an angel of light.
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