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Quote (barley @ June 26 2010,14:27) Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2010,15:57) Quote (barley @ June 24 2010,11:03) Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2010,15:35) Barley, What do you mean when you state we fullfill the law without fullfiling all of the works of the Law?
I ask because you sound like your understanding is similar to mine on this issue but due to the nature of language I cannot be sure.
I agree that if you fulfill the command “love your neighbor as yourself” then you fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. I also agree that some legal requirements of the Law were addressed to the Hebrew people and not to the Gentiles. In addition some legal requirements were about symbolism and the reality is in living by the Spirit of Holiness. All of the Law is an Act of God's love and thus all the commands are good and righteous.
What I am asking is if you would expand on what you meant by giving an explanation in the same pattern as mine. Feel free to comment on mine and make any additions and subtractions you feel need to be made to be true to God's intent.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Romans 13:10 instructs us that “love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” We are no longer under the law, but that does not excuse us from doing what is right.To have a happy relationship with our Heavenly Father we must learn to do His will, not our own. That is a good thing. Our wills most often gets us in trouble.
Romans 15:4 states that whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning. The laws of Moses was given to Israel, not to the Christian church. Galatians speaks that the law was our schoolmaster until Christ.
God has given us righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21. We now have the right to go to the throne of God boldly without any sense of sin, guilt, or condemnation. See also Romans 5:1 and 8:1. Our salvation is not dependent on our works like it was in the old T. Jesus Christ's works made salvation a gift by God's grace. However, since God gave us this very expensive gift. It cost him the life of his son. John 3:16. It certainly behooves us to honor God, obey and love God. As we learn more about what God has done for us freely, it becomes easier, or maybe more reasonable to return the favor.
Let us learn to walk for God in loving response to his free gift to us.
barleyjust for your information this does not lign up with your quote;Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
Jas 2:15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
Jas 2:16 If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
Jas 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.Pierre
I do not think that I understand what you are trying to say.Have I not made myself clear enough? Are you reading into this something that is not there?
Could you explain how you see these verses in James contradicting what scripture teaches?
Sometimes people confuse salvation with good works. Salvation is not of works, See Ephesians 2:8,9 , but by the grace of God. However, Ephesians 2:10 teaches us that now that we have been given salvation we do have a job to do. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Salvation is not an all expense paid vacation, it is the start of a life that glorifies God by us doing the works that God ordained us to do.
Did you know you have been ordained by God? Let's get to work!
Barleyyou right i have misread your comment and will be more careful next time that is.
and yes i agree with you entirely
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2010,16:26) Quote (barley @ June 26 2010,14:27) Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2010,15:57) Quote (barley @ June 24 2010,11:03) Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2010,15:35) Barley, What do you mean when you state we fullfill the law without fullfiling all of the works of the Law?
I ask because you sound like your understanding is similar to mine on this issue but due to the nature of language I cannot be sure.
I agree that if you fulfill the command “love your neighbor as yourself” then you fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. I also agree that some legal requirements of the Law were addressed to the Hebrew people and not to the Gentiles. In addition some legal requirements were about symbolism and the reality is in living by the Spirit of Holiness. All of the Law is an Act of God's love and thus all the commands are good and righteous.
What I am asking is if you would expand on what you meant by giving an explanation in the same pattern as mine. Feel free to comment on mine and make any additions and subtractions you feel need to be made to be true to God's intent.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Romans 13:10 instructs us that “love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” We are no longer under the law, but that does not excuse us from doing what is right.To have a happy relationship with our Heavenly Father we must learn to do His will, not our own. That is a good thing. Our wills most often gets us in trouble.
Romans 15:4 states that whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning. The laws of Moses was given to Israel, not to the Christian church. Galatians speaks that the law was our schoolmaster until Christ.
God has given us righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21. We now have the right to go to the throne of God boldly without any sense of sin, guilt, or condemnation. See also Romans 5:1 and 8:1. Our salvation is not dependent on our works like it was in the old T. Jesus Christ's works made salvation a gift by God's grace. However, since God gave us this very expensive gift. It cost him the life of his son. John 3:16. It certainly behooves us to honor God, obey and love God. As we learn more about what God has done for us freely, it becomes easier, or maybe more reasonable to return the favor.
Let us learn to walk for God in loving response to his free gift to us.
barleyjust for your information this does not lign up with your quote;Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
Jas 2:15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
Jas 2:16 If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
Jas 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.Pierre
I do not think that I understand what you are trying to say.Have I not made myself clear enough? Are you reading into this something that is not there?
Could you explain how you see these verses in James contradicting what scripture teaches?
Sometimes people confuse salvation with good works. Salvation is not of works, See Ephesians 2:8,9 , but by the grace of God. However, Ephesians 2:10 teaches us that now that we have been given salvation we do have a job to do. We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Salvation is not an all expense paid vacation, it is the start of a life that glorifies God by us doing the works that God ordained us to do.
Did you know you have been ordained by God? Let's get to work!
Barleyyou right i have misread your comment and will be more careful next time that is.
and yes i agree with you entirely
Pierre
Thank you. I likewise must apologize if I seemed a little testy. One of the goals that I have is to make sure that I do not reply emotionally but from the scripture and a peaceful answer. It is not as easy to do all the time that it might seem to be. We are interested in learning and sharing truth, not emotions or opinions.Likewise, I have had to remind myself that we all have not the same background and understanding. I prefer not to assume anything about anybody at all. Conclusions come from the abundance of facts, not preconceived notions.
Thanks again. It is good to know that we are on the same page.
Hi B,
To clarify.
You say WE are given salvation and should walk in the newness of life.
Of course this only applies to those who have entered the gate of Jesus and been given the Spirit of life.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2010,14:44) Hi B,
To clarify.
You say WE are given salvation and should walk in the newness of life.
Of course this only applies to those who have entered the gate of Jesus and been given the Spirit of life.
Yes, of course, we receive the gift of salvation by believing and confessing the savior from sin, the Lord Jesus, Romans 10:9. Our own believing, (therefore we are believers) are not works capable of earning salvation. Even as Abraham could not of his own ability conceive Isaac with Sarah… But Abraham could believe that God's ability was able to make it happen. Abraham and Sarah, did of course, do what husband and wife do. That was a necessary ingredient. They did their part with expectation, believing, that God would do His. They did not have Moses' ten commandments, Abe and Sarah were not under the law of Moses. They believed the promise of God. God honored that.We, who have believed scripture, the promise of God, are the ones who have received salvation.
Hi B,
Romans is written to the SAVED not the unsaved. Read Romans chapter1.
It is not offering a different new way from Peter at pentecost.
Nothing has changed from that day to this.Telling Jesus he is lord does not make him our Lord.
We are baptised in Christ.[gal]
He is born into us.[gal]Barley,
What Nick states is correct though it is also correct that Acts itself was written to a believer by Luke. In Acts 2:38 though we have Peter speaking to the general masses and then instructing those who came to believe that Jesus is King what he taught them to do next and why they were to do that. They showed their belief by being cut to the heart and then obeying Jesus teachings just as Abraham showed his faith by what he did.
So if one truly confesses Jesus is the Lord of their life then they will do as he teaches and so become immersed in water having faith that a miracle will occur and they will recieve God's spirit of true righteousness which they can live by through faith.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi KW,
Immersion in water in the name of Jesus does not automatically bring about Baptism in the Spirit.
We must ask in faith.[Lk11]Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2010,10:28) Hi KW,
Immersion in water in the name of Jesus does not automatically bring about Baptism in the Spirit.
We must ask in faith.[Lk11]
I agree and was of the impression that I made that point by stating the people showed their faith by their actions.Hello! Let me give you my two cents. In Exodus 34:27-28 is the Covenant that God made with Israel, the ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:16-17 talks about the Sabbath being a sign between God and the Children of Israel. That is the Old Covenant…….
We are now in the New Covenant in
Luke 22:20 …. This cup is the new covenant in My blood which is shed for you. And in
Math. 22:37…”You shall love the LORD your God with all of your heart, with all of your Soul, and all of your mind.
verse 38 “This is the first and great commandment.
verse 39 “And the second is just like it “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
verse 40 “On these two commandments hang all of the Law and the Prophets.”
Jesus also magnified the Law and made it Spiritual. Even though sin is not imputed to us, that does not mean that we now have a license to sin…. It is more important to keep the Spirit of the Law then the Letter of the Law….If we walk in the Spirit we will not sin, but John also said that if we think we don't sin the truth is not in us…. Peace and Love IreneIrene,
John was not stating that we have to sin but rather was making the points that we are tempted to sin. I state this with cofindence because later on in the same letter he states “If” we sin which means one may or may not sin.
It is also important, and I believe John makes this point as well, that we do not deny it if we stumble as that makes a liar before God.
John teaches us that in the case we do sin that we confess that sin and have cofidence that God will cleanse us of the desire to give into temptation. I believe that means we should also ask God to cleanse us of unrighteousness and so change us so next time we resist the devil and he runs away.
This process may be slow as we stumple, confess, ask to be changed, and then stumble again but even then we must persever in our faith and thus our pursuit of a righteousness that is like God's.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2010,16:47) Irene, John was not stating that we have to sin but rather was making the points that we are tempted to sin. I state this with cofindence because later on in the same letter he states “If” we sin which means one may or may not sin.
It is also important, and I believe John makes this point as well, that we do not deny it if we stumble as that makes a liar before God.
John teaches us that in the case we do sin that we confess that sin and have cofidence that God will cleanse us of the desire to give into temptation. I believe that means we should also ask God to cleanse us of unrighteousness and so change us so next time we resist the devil and he runs away.
This process may be slow as we stumple, confess, ask to be changed, and then stumble again but even then we must persever in our faith and thus our pursuit of a righteousness that is like God's.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
kerwin I do believe that in this flesh we will Sin….. We do have a Mediator to go to God and ask Him for the forgiveness of that Sin….No other Sacrifice needed… I also believe that some Sin's we are not even aware of… In case of pride, or Anger or lust… Jesus taught us on the Sermon on the Mount, that if we are angry with our Brother, we have commited Murder in our Hearts…. Tell me that you have never been angry with anyone?
? But like that Song goes,God is quick to forgive us, when we confess……I guess we kind of agree………
Peace and Love Irene….Irene,
To teach that we must sin because we are in the flesh of this world is not what scriptre is telling us. If you look at Jesus who was in the flesh of this world for thirty odd years and yet never sinned even though tempted by sin even as you and I are then you can see that one is not condemned to sin because they are human. You can also look at Satan who despite not being in the flesh of this world still sinned.
It is certainly possible that some temptations are linked to the flesh of this world but it does not make us sin. Sin is what we choose because of an impure heart and spirit.
Jesus taught and provided us with the only way to get a new pure spirit that purifies our heart so we completely turn away from sin.
If one lives according to the ways of the Holy Spirit then one does not even commit a sin they are unaware of because sin has nothing to do with the spirit of righteousness.
It is true that God is quick to forgive us when we confess but God is not limited to just forgiving us but instead he will change us so that we will no longer choose to do the sin in the first place though he may take time to do so like a sculpture working on a masterpiece.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
The Seven Noahide Laws:
To the Jewish people G-d gave the entire Torah [teaching] as their Law. They therefore have a special responsibility—with special commandments—to be the priesthood of the world, a “light unto the nations.”
What about the rest of the world? What is G-d's will for them?
G-d gave Noah and all his descendants (B'nei Noach or “children of Noah”) seven commandments to obey. These seven universal laws (known as the “Seven Noahide Laws”) were reaffirmed with Moses and the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai in what is now known as the Oral Torah, establishing modern observance of these laws. These seven commandments (mitzvos), actually seven categories of hundreds of specific laws, are G-d's will for all non-Jews.
Non-Jews who (1) reject all idolatrous ideas and accept the kingship of the One G-d, (2) accept the priesthood of the Jewish people as the guardians and teachers of Torah, and (3) commit to following the Seven Noahide Laws as revealed in the Oral Torah from Mt. Sinai are “Hasidic Gentiles” or “Noahides.” The term “Hasidic Gentile” is derived from a classic commentary by the Rambam, Rav Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides), in The Laws of Kings 8:11:
“Anyone who accepts upon himself the fulfillment of these Seven Mitzvos [commandments] and is precise in their observance is considered one of the hasidei umos ha'olam [“Hasidim of the nations of the world”] and will merit a share in the World to Come.”
The Seven Noahide Laws are the minimal observance for non-Jews. The source of these laws and the basis of their understanding is the Oral Torah, which G-d gave to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai along with His Written Law. By learning from the Jews and performing the mitzvos, non-Jews have a crucial role in G-d's Creation.The Seven Noahide Laws actually encompass numerous details and applications within hundreds of laws, each with specific applications. One should also keep in mind that these laws are only the minimal basis for a Hasidic gentile's service to G-d, since there are many Jewish mitzvos that non-Jews are encouraged to adopt to accomplish more. Through these laws a gentile refines himself and the Creation as a whole, fulfilling his purpose for existence.
The 7 Noachide Laws:
The Jewish idea is that the Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. The Torah (as explained in the Talmud – Sanhedrin 58b) presents seven mitzvot for non-Jews to observe. These seven laws are the pillars of human civilization, and are named the “Seven Laws of Noah,” since all humans are descended from Noah. They are:
Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not worship false gods.
Do not be sexually immoral.
Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
Do not curse God.
Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.Martian,
That is a good question and I hope Adam considers what you are asking then answers it in his own words as sometimes he seems fearful of airing his thoughts on matters but instead puts up someone else's.
I do know this if one lives according to the Spirit that can only be achieved though adherence to all of Jesus' teachings then they will obey the all the righteous requirements of the law. The coming of this miraculous spirit of righteousness was testified in scripture by the prophets when they spoke of a new covenant. I would like to know the answer why there are those that believe the old covenant was sufficient since God spoke of a new and better covenant that is now available to those that are convinced that Jesus is the Anointed.
The Noahide rules are an attempt to apply the royal law of love your neighbor as yourself to situations that arise in the world, Since it does not mention every situation it is not all inclusive of obedience to the righteous requirements of the law which is obedience to the command to Love. In addition I am assuming those who came up with them applied that godly law correctly.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (gollamudi @ May 25 2010,20:31) In all of the political and cultural debates over the Ten Commandments, one question that receives far too little attention is whether anyone should be expected to adhere to the Ten Commandments in the first place. They are, after all, Jewish laws, so why should any non-Jews bother with them? If people regard the Ten Commandments as simply basic behavioral rules that God expects of everyone, then of course they will expect everyone to follow them. What these people tend to miss, however, is that this is not how the Jews originally understood the Ten Commandments. Instead, the Ten Commandments were regarded as behavioral rules for Jews — the chosen people. They weren’t commandments for everyone else.
Indeed, this was the status of all the 623 commandments in ancient Hebrew law. They were God’s laws for God’s chosen people, not laws that applied to gentiles. So what were gentiles supposed to do? Jewish scholars came up with a set of laws that all of humanity should follow, especially those traveling through or living in areas controlled by Jews.
The lists vary to some degree, but most accepted the truth of seven basic rules known as the Noahide Laws. The name refers to the idea that all humans share a common descent from Noah after the Great Flood. Jews describe any group of gentiles following the Noahide Laws as B’nai Noach, or “Descendants of Noah,” and individuals are considered “Righteous Gentiles.” Adherence to these laws are the means by which non-Jews can best have a meaningful relationship with God. Neither following the Ten Commandments nor the rest of the halakha is necessary.
Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not worship false gods.
Do not engage in sexual immorality (usually incest, sodomy, adultery, homosexuality).
Do not eat any part of an animal not slaughtered according to ritual requirements.
Do not blaspheme.
Establish courts of justice.
About half of the Noahide Laws are the same as what appears in the Ten Commandments — but not all of them. There are also some additions we find here that don’t appear in the Decalogue.Although one might follow these laws for almost any reason, including many reasons unconnected with Judaism, it is commonly believed that only those gentiles who follow the laws specifically because of their divine origin will share in the fruits of the World to Come. Following the laws for this reason as opposed to some other reason demonstrates both a knowledge of God and a willingness to submit to God’s wishes.
Through the centuries various Jewish scholars have added other regulations they considered important, like forbidding castration or paying tithes, but the above laws have been retained in all lists and are regarded as generally authoritative in all schools of thought.
Most Americans who work for the posting of the Ten Commandments in public buildings or creating Ten Commandments monuments are not Jews and thus not technically bound to follow the Ten Commandments. Even if one accepts the authoritative nature of the Bible (which is not something that the government can endorse), all that gentiles are obligated to follow are probably the Noahide Laws, but I haven’t seen anyone try to create a monument for them.
Should people follow the Ten Commandments? If one is a believing Jew, then it seems reasonable to conclude that one should indeed follow them — it wouldn’t make much sense to ignore them. If one is not a believing Jew, then it isn’t necessary to follow all of them. If one accepts the Old Testament as authoritative, then one should simply adhere to the Noahide Laws and that should be sufficient.
Even if we ignore all of this, it is unclear how adherence to the Ten Commandments could ever be anything more than a personal choice. Four of the commandments are religious in nature and there is no good reason to think that a civil government has the authority to tell people what god to worship, not to take a specific god’s name in vain, not to have idols, etc.
Even the less religious commandments have problems. Although honoring one’s parents is normally a good idea, many have been abused by their parents and it would not be reasonable to tell them to “honor” such people. The tenth commandment not only condones slavery, something modern society abandoned long ago, but can also be read as supportive of women having a second-class status. Once again it would not be reasonable for the government to even endorse such positions, much less impose it upon people.
Source: http://atheism.about.com/od/tencommandments/a/noahidelaws.htm
What do Christians say on this?
Please share your views
Adam
You bring in some carefully thought out ideas.One of them that I found intriguing is your thinking on the idea of the ten being “behavioral rules.” Sadly, based on the amount of times that Israel erred, and walked away from God, they clearly did not reap the benefits of obeying God.
What most intrigues me is that it would seem that for most, the ten were nothing but behavioral rules. Would not God be more pleased if Israel's desire was to obey them from the heart and not just outwardly?
Jesus Christ was able to sum up all the law into just two commandments because he looked at them from the heart and not just outward behavior.
Is that not why David, for one example, was so tight with God? He loved God from the heart. He wanted to please God with his life, not just go through the motions of obedience. That love for God gave him great courage, even as a young man, when he took on Goliath, when all the men of war were scared in their tents. Love gave him courage. What a lesson for us!
When we love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, will idolatry ever be an issue in our lives? No. There will be no room for it in our lives, not even in the most subtle of forms. Heart, soul, mind and strength, is there any thing left out?
When you love your neighbor as yourself, would you ever wrong your neighbor? No, you would never want to be wronged, so you would never wrong anyone else.
The law was given to Moses to give to Israel. We can learn from the law, but Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law, so that subsequent generations would not have to be under the burden of the law, but under grace. Does that mean that we can sin? Romans 6 covers that question. No, God forbid. As we live in God's love and grace, we fulfill the law.Romans 13:10. We are not technically bound by the law, (Galatians 5:5-6,14; 3:10-14; 3:2-5; 2:16) but we are to live up to the standards given to Christians in Romans through Thessalonians. Those epistles, tell us what we need to know about what Jesus Christ accomplished for us, and then what we have been enabled to do with those accomplishments. Ie, Romans 12:9 says we are to love without dissimulation, or hypocrisy. Evidently, it is possible to love with hypocrisy. But, we are told that we can love without hypocrisy. Wow. That is pure love!
Quote (martian @ July 09 2010,00:27) What does commandment, keep and break mean?
Unless you are having some strange ideas it is not too difficult to answer your query brother Martian. Keep and break the commandment depends on how you obey and disobey such commandment.Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ July 15 2010,16:07) Quote (martian @ July 09 2010,00:27) What does commandment, keep and break mean?
Unless you are having some strange ideas it is not too difficult to answer your query brother Martian. Keep and break the commandment depends on how you obey and disobey such commandment.Peace to you
Adam
Actually it does not mean obey or disobey.The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.
Many times I have heard it said that no one can keep all of the commands but, this is not true. From an Hebraic perspective of the word shamar behind the English word keep, it is possible to keep all of the commands. The problem lies in our understanding of keep as meaning obedience, but this is not the meaning of shamar. It should first be recognized that not all of the commands of the torah are for all people. Some are only for the priests, some are only for men and some are only for women. Some are only for children and some are for leaders. But, it should also be understood that even if a command is not for you, you can still keep it. The original picture painted by the Hebrew word shamar is a sheepfold. When a shepherd was out in the wilderness with his flock, he would gather thorn bushes to erect a corral to place his flock in at night. The thorns would deter predators and thereby protect and guard the sheep from harm. The word shamiyr derived from this root means a thorn. The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh bless you and keep (guard and protect) you. One keeps the commands of God by guarding and protecting them.
This word is carried into the English in the “Castle Keep” the most guarded place in the castle and in the old English prayer. “Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep.” These are talking about guarding and protecting the commandments.
While the word keep, as in “keep the commands of God” does not mean obedience but guarding and protecting, the meaning of “break the commands of God” does not mean disobedience. The Hebrew word parar, translated as break, is the treading of grain on the threshing floor by oxen to open up the hulls to remove the seeds. To the Ancient Hebrews, breaking the commands of God was equated with throwing it on the ground and trampling on it. In both cases, keeping and breaking are related to ones attitude toward the commands. A child who disobeys his parents and is genuinely apologetic shows honor and respect to his parents. But a child who willfully disobeys with no sign of remorse has trampled on his parents teachings and deserves punishment.
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