- This topic is empty.
- Posts
WJ, I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
Get over it.
Also, worship is the same as honour and I worship/honour God as God and Jesus as the son of God.
There is nothing evading about it. It is the truth.
Accept that this is how I talk to God (the Father) and move on with the debate please.Back to the question which BTW preceded your question:
“Are you going to show faith in your own doctrine from now on and refer to God as THEM/THEIR instead of HIM/HIS?”
WJ, are you going to call God “Them” instead of “Him” in order to show faith in your own doctrine and to speak English correctly?
If not, why not?WJ, I noticed that you are saying that I should also call God “THEM” in at least one other topic because I believe that God works through Jesus. I wish you would put your effort into this debate first, otherwise you are making statements that are based on an incomplete understanding and that is not fair nor reasonable.
The outcome of this debate will determine what you can say with confidence about me but for now, there are outstanding questions here that you need to address.
Until then, you should be in a state of indecision because you have not won your argument or answered my points. IN fact if anything, I think you are stumped.
Thus there is no reason to say what you say in other topics until you put this to rest first.
I have told you that I do all in the NAME of Jesus to the one true God, the Father. So far you have no come back and what I have said is exactly how Jesus taught us to pray to.
As I said in the other topic, yes God works through agencies, and primarily his son, but that gives us no license to make his agency YHWH too.
So far, God to you is “THEM” and to me is “HIM”. You have not proved or argued otherwise, and so you should call your God “THEM” because that is what you teach.
This debate can end when you admit that you should call your God “THEM” unless you decide to address one of the persons/deities in your God substance or God committee.
Quote (t8 @ May 09 2011,19:38)
Also, worship is the same as honour and I worship/honour God as God and Jesus as the son of God.
Hi t8Okay so you give the same honour/worship to Jesus as you do to the Father?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ May 16 2011,20:41) WJ, are you going to call God “Them” instead of “Him” in order to show faith in your own doctrine and to speak English correctly?
If not, why not?
t8Are you going to be like Mike and ignore my post and answer to your questions only so that you can ask me the same question again?
You ask me questions and I answer but you do not answer hardly any of the questions that I have asked you on this thread.
Here is my answer again…
They are my Savour, they are my Lord, they are my God, and they are my Light and Life, for they are “One”. I was also baptised in “Their” name. How about you?
They meaning the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
So you see t8 I have no problem refering to God as they!
But if you insist that I must refer to God always as “they or them” then you must be fair when you refer to a group or unit as they or them.
For instance when you refer to the “body” of Christ you should clarify that the Body is made up of “them or they”.
But everyone knows the “Body” is one yet many so there is no need to clarify unless you are speaking in reference to a particular member of the Body.
The problem is you assume God is a singular one though you have not proven that, but in fact your life and testimony contradicts that because when God speaks through you (if he does) it is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that speaks.
If you can prove that is not the case then you might have a point, otherwise you have created a strawman argument that clearly is on fire and burning to the ground.
Blessings Keith
Bump for t8 for clarification…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2011,16:50)
Now as for you, your post reinforces that God to you is THEM.
My post reinforces that they are “One” and that you cannot have one without the other. Therefore I cannot have “God” without Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that my salvation depends on the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.So I can say that THEY” saved me, and “THEY” healed me and “THEY” filled me with the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that your confession t8, or is it?
Or another way of saying it is “God” saved me and healed me and filled me with the Holy Spirit.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,03:58) Hi t8 Okay so you give the same honour/worship to Jesus as you do to the Father?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
WJ
No.I honour/worship God as God, Jesus as the son of God and the Lamb of God, and Moses as a prophet of God.
Obviously the honour and worship is different as worship and honour toward God would be far greater than any other honour simply because God is greater than all.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,04:13) Here is my answer again… They are my Savour, they are my Lord, they are my God, and they are my Light and Life, for they are “One”. I was also baptised in “Their” name. How about you?
They meaning the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
So you see t8 I have no problem refering to God as they!
OK great. As far as I am concerned this discussion got the result I was after.This debate is pretty much over for me unless you want to continue.
From now on, when I see you refer to God as HIM, I will remind you to correct that as it doesn't reflect your doctrine and meaning of God.
I of course will call God “HIM” as that reflects my doctrine and understanding of God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,04:13) But if you insist that I must refer to God always as “they or them” then you must be fair when you refer to a group or unit as they or them. For instance when you refer to the “body” of Christ you should clarify that the Body is made up of “them or they”.
Sure I understand that the body has many members/persons.The Body of Christ is not a single person/identity like God, so no problem there WJ. There is no scripture that says or teaches that there is “one body the Peter” like there is “One God the Father” for example even though Peter was part of the body. In addition, there is no one person in the body that is 100% the body as each member of the Trinity is 100% God. No we are members of one body and each of us is a him/her. And as you said yourself, SHE as in wisdom is not a person anyway.
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2011,20:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,03:58) Hi t8 Okay so you give the same honour/worship to Jesus as you do to the Father?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
WJ
No.I honour/worship God as God, Jesus as the son of God and the Lamb of God, and Moses as a prophet of God.
Obviously the honour and worship is different as worship and honour toward God would be far greater than any other honour simply because God is greater than all.
t8So you don't give the “same” honour to Jesus as you do the Father?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 07 2011,20:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 08 2011,04:13) But if you insist that I must refer to God always as “they or them” then you must be fair when you refer to a group or unit as they or them. For instance when you refer to the “body” of Christ you should clarify that the Body is made up of “them or they”.
Sure I understand that the body has many members/persons.The Body of Christ is not a single person/identity like God, so no problem there WJ. There is no scripture that says or teaches that there is “one body the Peter” like there is “One God the Father” for example even though Peter was part of the body. In addition, there is no one person in the body that is 100% the body as each member of the Trinity is 100% God. No we are members of one body and each of us is a him/her. And as you said yourself, SHE as in wisdom is not a person anyway.
OK t8Since you continue to evade my point then lets do it another way.
How many Savours do you have?
How many Lords do you have?
How many Spirits have you received?
So when you say “God is my Savour” then be sure to include Jesus and say “they are my Savour”.
So when you say “the Lord is God” then be sure to include Jesus and say “they are my Lord”.
So when you say “I have recieved the Spirit of God” you should say “I have recieved the Spirit of the Father and the Son”.
Is it finally making sense to you t8? You created this straw man point and it is obvious it is fallacious.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2011,03:29) t8 So you don't give the “same” honour to Jesus as you do the Father?
WJ
I don't lump them together into a blob and then honour that blob substance Trinity thing.I honour the Father as God and the Jesus as the son of God, lamb of God, and the messiah.
Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, AND to the Lamb.”I honour both for who and what they are.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2011,04:14) How many Savours do you have? How many Lords do you have?
How many Spirits have you received?
God is my saviour. But God uses others to do that work including angels for salvation from disasters, Christ for salvation of my soul, and other people who might have saved my life that I may not know about. Think about it, if someone saved your life, they would be your saviour. But that wouldn't make them God of course.There is ultimately one lord whom God made lord of all. I use to rent and I had a landlord. In royalty there were and are lords that have different dominions. But Jesus is lord of all except God of course.
I have received the Holy Spirit. I have also received the pneuma or spirit/breath of God that makes me a living soul. In addition to that, it is possible that I had received some bad spirits when I was an godless atheist.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2011,04:14) Is it finally making sense to you t8? You created this straw man point and it is obvious it is fallacious.
Makes perfect sense.I am not presenting a straw man, but am destroying the straw god that the Trinity Doctrine is trying to sell.The truth is that there is one God the Father. And eternal life is to believe in that one true God AND Jesus Christ who HE has sent. I know that you do not believe this, but this is scripture, so I think it unwise to instead believe what you are teaching.
This whole thing about God being a divine substance made up of 3 persons with each being 100% God is just ridiculous WJ.
But you bought into it, not me.
Quote (t8 @ June 09 2011,21:31) The truth is that there is one God the Father.
Hi t8That is not all the truth, because the truth is you or no one can have the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It is a straw man to argue that because I pray to “God as my Savour” that I have to say “them” or “they” since God the Father is not “exclusively” my Savour.
If I refer to Gods image I do not have to say “I am created after the image of the Father and Jesus.
In fact the scriptures say “let us make man” and then it says “so God created”.
Your argument was weak from the beginning and still is since our fellowship is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and you cannot have one without the other.
WJ
It is not a straw man to say that all (good) originates in the one true God and he has agency of which Christ his son is the primary person in which he communicates and is made visible.
Your attempt to coax me into a multiple/triune God is the strawman because God is invisible and has agency.
Do you think that everything the president of the USA says and does is actually sourced from himself?
Jesus said, why call me good, only God is good. He also said, “I only do what I see the Father doing and speak what I hear him saying”.
That is not the Trinity, but the truth from Jesus himself as to a true comparison between himself and God.I comply. You do not.
My God is a HIM, and yours is THEM.
So long as we understand that, we can co-exist by reason of each being honest and addressing God in the way that we understand God to be as revealed through scripture. This way we can easily detect who has the misunderstanding and hence teaches incorrectly, and from this we can judge accordingly.
Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.
Quote (t8 @ June 13 2011,19:48) My God is a HIM, and yours is THEM.
Really? Is your God “exclussively” your Savour?Your point is invalid because once again you cannot have “GOD” without having the three!
You cannot have “FELLOWSHIP” with “GOD” without having the three!
My “Savour” is “GOD” how about yours?
How many Savours do you have?
My Savour includes the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, how about yours?
It is a straw man to argue that because I pray to “God as my Savour” that I have to say “them” or “they” since God the Father is not “exclusively” my Savour.
So the next time you say “God is my Savour” don't forget to say “They” are my Savour!
You can try and force your “Henotheistic” and “Arian” views on me all you want but I reject the Heresy that you teach.
Jesus said he and the Father are one. But you teach they are not “One”.
When I Pray to God my Savour I am praying to them.
When I have fellowship with God I have fellowship with them.
How about you?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 15 2011,02:18) Your point is invalid because once again you cannot have “GOD” without having the three!
Yes I cannot have God without the mediator that is true. But not everyone that God uses is God too WJ. How is it that you cannot fathom this?Jesus brings me into union with God so that I can receive the Holy Spirit and thus eternal life through redemption.
Just as Moses brought God to the people, so Jesus does in a much greater way.
Jesus and Moses are not God WJ.
The Father is. Jesus, Paul, and myself teach this.When you try to change this, you are not only arguing against me, but those whom I repeat and promote, namely Jesus and his apostles. It is them who you have a problem with. I am but the messenger (angel). As the saying goes, “don't shoot the messenger”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 15 2011,02:18) My Savour includes the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, how about yours?
Please no deceptive language WJ.Correct usage of words for your sentence is “My Saviors” since you reference 3 persons.
I trust that you will say 'saviors' from now on when talking about multiple persons.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 15 2011,02:18) Jesus said he and the Father are one. But you teach they are not “One”.
Wrong. I teach that they are one just as all of us can be one.It is the same oneness. Your oneness it seems has multiple meanings when it suits you.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.See how your doctrine blinds you from understanding this truth? Well it is not just this truth but many others.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 15 2011,02:18) When I have fellowship with God I have fellowship with them. How about you?
I also have fellowship with them, when I have fellowship with God's people. Fellowship can be had among many. But fellowship with God is fellowship with the Father. Fellowship with the son is fellowship with Jesus. Fellowship with an apostle is fellowship with another other than God.Of course we should all be one. Us, Jesus, and ultimately God. All of us can be one in fellowship.
Amen.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
