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WJ, where is your faith in your Trinity Doctrine.
You cannot call your god by the grammatically correct terms, “THEM” & “THEY”. Instead you call God “HIM” & “HIS”, even though you are referring to 3 persons.
Shame on you for not practicing what you preach.
Shame on you for not even giving an answer as to why you do not call your Trinity God, “THEM”.
Shame on you for not being honest and saying that you cannot call God “THEM” even though your doctrine coupled with good English requires it.It appears that you prefer this debate to disappear but it will not. It will be a testimony as to the double standard that your doctrine invokes.
At this stage I prefer an answer as to whether you will continue the debate or whether you concede.
No answer will be taken as conceding.
Hi T8
They are my Savour, they are my Lord, they are my God, and they are my Light and Life, for they are “One”. I was also baptised in “Their” name. How about you?
They meaning the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
So you see t8 I have no problem refering to God as they!
In fact the scriptures say “let us” make man in “our' image and yet we say God created all things and we say we are made in “Gods” image, right? So the next time you say God created all things then you should say “they” created all things. Don't you believe “they” the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit took part in the creation of all things?
Where is your faith in your doctrine t8 since you do not say “they” created all things?
So your argument is a straw man because when you say “God” created all things you are including Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't you, or do you believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit had no part in the creation?
You are the expert at creating diversions. There is so much I could add to what you have said but let me ask you a few questions…
Can you have fellowship with God the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
When you go to fellowship with God, why don't you say I am going to fellowship with them?
When you say “I am going to pray to God” why don't you say I am going to pray to them?
When you say “I am going to worship God” why don't you say I am going to worship them?
Does God live in you t8? If So, why don't you say they live inside you?
This whole argument of yours is so silly t8 and it is beneath you, or is it?
WJ
Thanks for your reply WJ.
For me there is one God the Father.
I come to the Father in the name of Jesus, and I aim to do all in the name of Jesus.It is not about saying God is THEM, but that God is HIM and I talk to HIM and try to do HIS will in the name of HIS son.
Now as for you, your post reinforces that God to you is THEM.
So be true to yourself and your hearers, please call God THEM from now on. Don't use HIM or HIS, unless you are addressing one of the members of your Trinity. Otherwise by default, when addressing God, please use the correct English words of THEM, THOSE, and THEIRS, etc.
If you continue to use our language of HIM/HIS, then I and others have the right to remind you each time that you are supporting our view that there is one God the Father.
Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50)
Thanks for your reply WJ.
T8You are welcome and thanks for your reply.
Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50)
For me there is one God the Father.
I come to the Father in the name of Jesus, and I aim to do all in the name of Jesus.
So you have to have someone else (Jesus) to go to your one God or to serve your one God? I will ask again…Can you have fellowship with God the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Then why don’t you say you go to “THEM” to fellowship if you cannot have the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Our fellowship is with the Father, and the Son and we have access to “THEM” by the Holy Spirit, right?
Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50) It is not about saying God is THEM, but that God is HIM and I talk to HIM and try to do HIS will in the name of HIS son.
Once again how do you talk to the Father without including Jesus and the Holy Spirit?Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50)
Now as for you, your post reinforces that God to you is THEM.
My post reinforces that they are “One” and that you cannot have one without the other. Therefore I cannot have “God” without Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that my salvation depends on the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.So I can say that THEY” saved me, and “THEY” healed me and “THEY” filled me with the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that your confession t8, or is it?
Or another way of saying it is “God” saved me and healed me and filled me with the Holy Spirit.
Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50) So be true to yourself and your hearers, please call God THEM from now on.
Be true to yourself and say THEY” spoke to me, and THEY” healed me, and THEY” saved me the next time God speaks to you or moves in your life, since the Father only works and speaks by the Son in these last days.Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50) Don't use HIM or HIS, unless you are addressing one of the members of your Trinity.
So you don’t address Jesus when you go to the Father? What do you do just say “excuse me Jesus, could you move out of my way”; I want to speak to the Father through your name?Remember t8 Jesus said “…no man can come to the Father but by me”.
So you must have the “THEM” to have the him, right?
Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,17:50) Otherwise by default, when addressing God, please use the correct English words of THEM, THOSE, and THEIRS, etc. If you continue to use our language of HIM/HIS, then I and others have the right to remind you each time that you are supporting our view that there is one God the Father.
And whenever you say ”God is my Savour”, you should remember “THEY” are your Savour and be honest that you have no salvation or anything from “God” (him) without THEM”.Are you sure you want to continue this straw man argument of yours?
You didn’t answer any of the questions but at least you can answer one “honest” question t8…
Can you have fellowship with God without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Remember t8…
An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,08:50) So you have to have someone else (Jesus) to go to your one God or to serve your one God? I will ask again… Can you have fellowship with God the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Then why don’t you say you go to “THEM” to fellowship if you cannot have the Father without Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Our fellowship is with the Father, and the Son and we have access to “THEM” by the Holy Spirit, right?
I will explain it again in more simple terms for you.The destination is God, the path is Jesus, the power is God's Spirit. There is one God the Father here WJ.
If my friend teaches me about God and I thank him or praise him for his effort, am I compelled to roll him into the Trinity to form a Quadrinity?
No.
For us there is one God the Father.
For you there is not.God is a HIM because he is the Father.
God is THEM to you because there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit.Scripture aligns with my view, or rather, I align myself with the scriptural view.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,08:50) Once again how do you talk to the Father without including Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Let me reword your question withjout changing the meaning. This will provide the answer to your question if you care to look.“Once again how do you talk to God without including his son Jesus or his spirit.”
Now I will further explain that I do not address the Holy Spirit, and I do not address Jesus Christ.
Rather, I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.This is the way Jesus taught us to pray. If you do not want to listen to Jesus own words on how to pray, then that is up to you.
… when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 “This, then, is how you should pray: ” 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,08:50) So I can say that THEY” saved me, and “THEY” healed me and “THEY” filled me with the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that your confession t8, or is it?
WJ, to the person that led me to Christ, I could say, they when addressing God's salvation work proclaimed through his servant, (the one who brought the gospel to me).No problem with THEY in that context. The problem lies in your inclusion as them all being God. If I included the servant of God as God too (i.e., I called them both God), then that would be the same problem you have.
'THEM' has legitimate uses that is not what is being debated here WJ. It is your illegitimate use of God as 3 persons, and then deceptively calling THEM, “HIM” in order to look the same in appearance to scripture.
I am calling you out on this one and asking that you be honest with your own doctrine and call God “THEM”.
I call God “HIM” because he is the Father. Jesus is the son and is another. So trying to pin my own argument to myself is not going to work WJ.
God is a HIM to me because he is the Father.
God is THEM to you because THEY are the Father, Son, Spirit to you.I am just asking for honest speech.
I am being honest with my speech and doctrine, how about you?t8
Why don't you answer the questions or question? Am I the only one required to answer questions?
You just reworded the question I give you and then post a bunch of spin!
WJ
I have answered the question about three times.
It is God that I talk to in prayer as Jesus taught me too.
I do that through Jesus name and by the power of God's spirit.Whereas I guess you pray or converse with all 3 interchangeably, I do not.
Why is this not an answer for you? It is my answer and it is the truth.
What more do you want?Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ May 04 2011,18:04) I have answered the question about three times. It is God that I talk to in prayer as Jesus taught me too.
I do that through Jesus name and by the power of God's spirit.
In other words you cannot approach God without the three. This is my point. If the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are so “One” that we cannot have God without having the three, then they are equally God.Quote (t8 @ May 04 2011,18:04) Whereas I guess you pray or converse with all 3 interchangeably, I do not.
So you do not fellowship with or worship Jesus?If Jesus is in the throne of God ruling with all authority and power then how do you go to that throne without conversing with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords that sits in the throne?
Quote (t8 @ May 04 2011,18:04) Why is this not an answer for you? It is my answer and it is the truth. What more do you want?
Why is my explanation not an answer to you?Do you have fellowship with both the Father and the Son and if so how do you do that?
It sounds like you only pray to the Father and sort of pass Jesus up by reciting his name to go to the Father.
Please help me understand how do you have fellowship with the Father and Jesus without praying to them? Didn’t Jesus say “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden?”
Can you fellowship with the Father without fellowshiping with Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
WJ
Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ May 02 2011,19:18) I am just asking for honest speech.
I am being honest with my speech and doctrine, how about you?
Are you being honest?If you are then why don't you say “THEY spoke to me” when you say God spoke to you?
If you are honest why don't you say “THEY healed me” when you say God healed me?
If you are honest why don't you say “THEY saved me” when you say God saved you?
Get the point? When are you going to concede?
WJ
WJ, I have given you the answer.
I speak to God in the name of Jesus.That means I speak to the Father as Jesus taught.
The fact that you cannot fathom this is probably why you cannot see that the Trinity Doctrine is false.
If you can't work out what I am saying, then what chance do you have with such matters as who is God.
Think of it in the same way that God created all things through Christ. In return, I pray to God (the Father) through Christ.
If you continue to show your lack of understanding in this matter, I will have no choice but to declare that you lost this debate.
My answer is clear. Move on please.
Quote (t8 @ May 06 2011,00:05)
If you continue to show your lack of understanding in this matter, I will have no choice but to declare that you lost this debate.
t8Is this what it will come to? That you just claim victory without addressing my points and questions?
You started this thread to belittle the Trinitarian view but it is clear to see the whole premise of the thread is one big straw man argument.
I have debunked your point because we worship, pray to and have fellowship with the Father and Jesus.
Be honest t8 and address the questions and the points. If you don't answer the questions then how can you claim victory?
t8 I request that we have an honest judge to determine the outcome of this debate.
WJ
WJ, I beleive that you are underqulaified to be debating this topic and your approach is childish.
You ask why I do not talk to them and I answer that I talk to the Father through the son, and that I do not pray Dear Father thank you Jesus please do this Holy Spirit. My answer is very clear and scriptural. Trying to get me to say that I speak to a plural of persons is not how a teacher should debate. This is the childish part of your debate.
I repeat, I say something like “Dear Father” and I pray in the name of Jesus HIS son.
If you cannot fathom this, then it is clear that you have lost the debate. This is not unreasonable WJ. I beleive any thinking person can easily understand my answer. It also happens to be taught in scripture, further proving that you cannot fathom scripture or are stubborn to what scripture is saying.
I have answered clearly and if you cannot move on, then I will add this to the Debate Log and declare that you lost.
The debate log is about closure on subjects which is an attempt to try and curb those who lose debates but continue on in fairyland as if they are winning.
So take my answer, and move on. Either challenge my answer or bring up the next point. Otherwise we will conclude that you couldn't debate further.
I should also add that in the event that you are not able to move on, I will then open the debate so that others can give their opinion and bring accountability to both of us.
Quote (t8 @ May 09 2011,18:26) WJ, I beleive that you are underqulaified to be debating this topic and your approach is childish. You ask why I do not talk to them and I answer that I talk to the Father through the son, and that I do not pray Dear Father thank you Jesus please do this Holy Spirit. My answer is very clear and scriptural. Trying to get me to say that I speak to a plural of persons is not how a teacher should debate. This is the childish part of your debate.
I repeat, I say something like “Dear Father” and I pray in the name of Jesus HIS son.
If you cannot fathom this, then it is clear that you have lost the debate. This is not unreasonable WJ. I beleive any thinking person can easily understand my answer. It also happens to be taught in scripture, further proving that you cannot fathom scripture or are stubborn to what scripture is saying.
I have answered clearly and if you cannot move on, then I will add this to the Debate Log and declare that you lost.
The debate log is about closure on subjects which is an attempt to try and curb those who lose debates but continue on in fairyland as if they are winning.
So take my answer, and move on. Either challenge my answer or bring up the next point. Otherwise we will conclude that you couldn't debate further.
t8I hope everyone can see all you are doing is patronizing me.
You have said you “Worship” Jesus and you have said you “fellowship” with the Father and Jesus.
Please explain how you “Worship” Jesus and “fellowship” with him if you do not converse with him.
It is obvious all you are doing is evading and spinning in this debate.
So grow up, and be mature enough to answer the questions and points or it will be obvious to all that you simple are wrong.
WJ
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