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Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,15:43) t8,
you said:Quote Kathi, you clearly teach that God is two. I teach that our God and Lord are two. The Lord is the only begotten God.
OK, so no problem there.
God is the Father.
God made Jesus, Lord.Sorted.
Now the only outstanding point is that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.
Is this correct.
t8,
Here is your list of scriptures. I will tell you who is being spoken about, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the Unity in general of both the Father and Son together with their Spirit.
After I do this, will you appreciate all the time that this is going to take me? I may split these up in several posts. I'll see how it goes, but I will address each passage. I will be using the Aramaic Bible in Plain English.Matthew 27:46
And toward the ninth hour Yeshua cried with a loud voice and he said, “Oh God, oh God! Why have you forsaken me?”
God is the Father here.Mark 1:24
And he said, “What business do we have with you, Yeshua the Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, The Holy One of God.”
God is the Father here.Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
I would say this is the Unity.Mark 15:34
And in the ninth hour Yeshua cried out in a loud voice, and he said: “Eil, Eil, lemana Shabaqthani”, which is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
This is the Father as 'God'.Mark 16:19
But Yeshua Our Lord, after he was speaking with them, ascended into Heaven, and he sat down at the right side of God.
This would be the Father as 'God'; Yeshua is our Lord.Luke 2:52
But Yeshua was growing in his stature and in his wisdom and in favor with God and the children of men.
This would be the Father as 'God.'Luke 6:12
But it occurred in those days that Yeshua went out to a mountain to pray, and there he was waiting for the morning in the prayer of God.
This would be the Father as 'God'.Luke 18:19
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
Same as before, I would say this is the Unity.John 3:2
This man came to Yeshua at night and said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher sent from God, for no man is able to do these miracles that you are doing unless God were with him.”
This might be the Father or God in general, the Unity.John 8:42
Yeshua said unto them, “If God were your father, you would have loved me, for I have proceeded from God and have not come of my own pleasure, but he has sent Me.”
This is the Father.John 8:54
Yeshua said to them, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, he of whom you say, 'He is our God.' “
This is the Father as 'God'.John 9:3
Yeshua said to them, “He had not sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God may appear in him.”
This is the Father as 'God.'John 13:31
Yeshua said, “Now The Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him.”
This is the Father.John 14:1*
“Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in God and believe in me.”
This is the Father as 'God'; we are to believe in two persons, the Father and the Son.John 17:3
“But these things are eternal life: 'They shall know you, for you alone are The God of Truth, and Yeshua The Messiah whom you have sent.' “
Jesus is speaking to the Father. We must know both, the Father and Yeshua.John 20:17
Yeshua said to her. “Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to join my Father, and go join my brothers and say to them that I ascend to join my Father and your Father, my God, and your God.”
This is the Father as 'God'; Yeshua is the one who is going to ascend to the Father.Acts 2:22
“Men, sons of Israel, hear these words: Yeshua The Nazarene, The Man who appeared to you from God with mighty works and with signs and with miracles, which God did among you by his hand, as you know,”
This is the Father. Yeshua is the man who did the mighty works with signs and miracles.Acts 2:32
“God has raised up this Yeshua, and we are all his witnesses.”
This is the Father as 'God'.Acts 2:36
“Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified.”
This would be the Father as God. Jesus as Yeshua, LORD Jehovah and the Messiah.Acts 3:13
“The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, The God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua, him whom you handed over and rejected in the presence of Pilatus, when he had rightly judged to release him.”
This is the Father as 'God', Yeshua is the Son of God.Acts 4:10
“Let this be known to you and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Yeshua The Messiah, the Nazarene, him whom you have crucified, whom God has raised from among the dead, behold, in it and by him this man stands before you whole.”
This would be the Father as 'God'; Yeshua as the one who made the man whole.Acts 5:30
“The God of our forefathers raised up Yeshua, The One whom you murdered, when you hanged him on a tree.”
This would be the Father.Acts 7:55
And he, being filled with faith and The Spirit of Holiness, gazed into Heaven and he saw the glory of God, and Yeshua as he stood at the right side of God.
This would be the Father as 'God' and Yeshua is the one standing at the right side of Him.Acts 10:36
For the word which he sent to the children of Israel and announced good news of peace and tranquility to them by Yeshua The Messiah, ( This One is LORD JEHOVAH of all ),
The 'he' would be the Father, the LORD JEHOVAH of all is Yeshua the Messiah.Acts 10:38
About Yeshua who was from Nazareth, whom God anointed with The Spirit of Holiness and with power, and he was traveling and healing those injured by The Evil One, because God was with him.
This would be the Father.Acts 13:23
From the seed of this man God raised up to Israel, according to what was promised, Yeshua The Savior.
'God' is the Father here, the Savior is Yeshua.Acts 20:21
“While I was testifying to the Jews and to the Aramaeans about returning home to the Presence of God and the faith in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.”
The 'God' is the Father, the 'Lord' is Yeshua.I will start a new post with these:
Romans 1:7
Romans 1:8
Romans 2:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 4:24
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:11
Romans 5:15
Romans 5:17
Romans 6:23
Romans 7:25
Romans 8:34
Romans 10:9
Romans 15:5
Romans 15:6
Romans 16:27
1 Corinthians 1:3
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Corinthians 1:30
1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 15:57
2 Corinthians 1:2
2 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 11:31
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 1:1
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17
Ephesians 2:6
Ephesians 6:23
Philippians 1:2
Philippians 2:11
Colossians 1:3*
Colossians 3:17
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 1:3
1 Thessalonians 3:11
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 5:9
2 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
2 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Timothy 1:1
1 Timothy 1:2
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Timothy 5:21
1 Timothy 6:3
2 Timothy 1:1
2 Timothy 1:2
2 Timothy 4:1
Titus 1:4
Titus 2:13
Philemon 1:3
Hebrews 13:20
James 1:1
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:5
2 Peter 1:1
2 Peter 1:2
1 John 5:1*
1 John 5:20
2 John 1:3
Jude 1:1
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:21
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 1:2
Revelation 14:12Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,21:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,15:43) t8,
you said:Quote Kathi, you clearly teach that God is two. I teach that our God and Lord are two. The Lord is the only begotten God.
OK, so no problem there.
God is the Father.
God made Jesus, Lord.Sorted.
Now the only outstanding point is that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.
Is this correct.
t8,
I would say it more like this:God is the Father.
The only begotten God is the Son.
God made the only Begotten God, Lord and Messiah.Quote Now the only outstanding point is that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH. Is this correct.
This would be more precise:
YHWH refers to either the Unity of God (Father) with the only begotten God (Son), or to either of them separately. Context and correct understanding can often make it clear.I only asked for 10, but if you want to do them all, then just list the ones that are not exclusively the Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,16:40) Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
I would say this is the Unity.
What unity.God and Jesus are united and so we can too.
I presume you are talking of the Father son union. And not including us.
“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.”
You see there are more than two in this unity.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,16:40) t8,
Here is your list of scriptures. I will tell you who is being spoken about, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the Unity in general of both the Father and Son together with their Spirit.
After I do this, will you appreciate all the time that this is going to take me? I may split these up in several posts. I'll see how it goes, but I will address each passage. I will be using the Aramaic Bible in Plain English.Matthew 27:46
And toward the ninth hour Yeshua cried with a loud voice and he said, “Oh God, oh God! Why have you forsaken me?”
God is the Father here.Mark 1:24
And he said, “What business do we have with you, Yeshua the Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, The Holy One of God.”
God is the Father here.Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
I would say this is the Unity.Mark 15:34
And in the ninth hour Yeshua cried out in a loud voice, and he said: “Eil, Eil, lemana Shabaqthani”, which is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
This is the Father as 'God'.Mark 16:19
But Yeshua Our Lord, after he was speaking with them, ascended into Heaven, and he sat down at the right side of God.
This would be the Father as 'God'; Yeshua is our Lord.Luke 2:52
But Yeshua was growing in his stature and in his wisdom and in favor with God and the children of men.
This would be the Father as 'God.'Luke 6:12
But it occurred in those days that Yeshua went out to a mountain to pray, and there he was waiting for the morning in the prayer of God.
This would be the Father as 'God'.Luke 18:19
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
Same as before, I would say this is the Unity.John 3:2
This man came to Yeshua at night and said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher sent from God, for no man is able to do these miracles that you are doing unless God were with him.”
This might be the Father or God in general, the Unity.John 8:42
Yeshua said unto them, “If God were your father, you would have loved me, for I have proceeded from God and have not come of my own pleasure, but he has sent Me.”
This is the Father.John 8:54
Yeshua said to them, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, he of whom you say, 'He is our God.' “
This is the Father as 'God'.John 9:3
Yeshua said to them, “He had not sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God may appear in him.”
This is the Father as 'God.'John 13:31
Yeshua said, “Now The Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him.”
This is the Father.John 14:1*
“Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in God and believe in me.”
This is the Father as 'God'; we are to believe in two persons, the Father and the Son.John 17:3
“But these things are eternal life: 'They shall know you, for you alone are The God of Truth, and Yeshua The Messiah whom you have sent.' “
Jesus is speaking to the Father. We must know both, the Father and Yeshua.John 20:17
Yeshua said to her. “Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to join my Father, and go join my brothers and say to them that I ascend to join my Father and your Father, my God, and your God.”
This is the Father as 'God'; Yeshua is the one who is going to ascend to the Father.Acts 2:22
“Men, sons of Israel, hear these words: Yeshua The Nazarene, The Man who appeared to you from God with mighty works and with signs and with miracles, which God did among you by his hand, as you know,”
This is the Father. Yeshua is the man who did the mighty works with signs and miracles.Acts 2:32
“God has raised up this Yeshua, and we are all his witnesses.”
This is the Father as 'God'.Acts 2:36
“Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified.”
This would be the Father as God. Jesus as Yeshua, LORD Jehovah and the Messiah.Acts 3:13
“The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, The God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua, him whom you handed over and rejected in the presence of Pilatus, when he had rightly judged to release him.”
This is the Father as 'God', Yeshua is the Son of God.Acts 4:10
“Let this be known to you and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Yeshua The Messiah, the Nazarene, him whom you have crucified, whom God has raised from among the dead, behold, in it and by him this man stands before you whole.”
This would be the Father as 'God'; Yeshua as the one who made the man whole.Acts 5:30
“The God of our forefathers raised up Yeshua, The One whom you murdered, when you hanged him on a tree.”
This would be the Father.Acts 7:55
And he, being filled with faith and The Spirit of Holiness, gazed into Heaven and he saw the glory of God, and Yeshua as he stood at the right side of God.
This would be the Father as 'God' and Yeshua is the one standing at the right side of Him.Acts 10:36
For the word which he sent to the children of Israel and announced good news of peace and tranquility to them by Yeshua The Messiah, ( This One is LORD JEHOVAH of all ),
The 'he' would be the Father, the LORD JEHOVAH of all is Yeshua the Messiah.Acts 10:38
About Yeshua who was from Nazareth, whom God anointed with The Spirit of Holiness and with power, and he was traveling and healing those injured by The Evil One, because God was with him.
This would be the Father.Acts 13:23
From the seed of this man God raised up to Israel, according to what was promised, Yeshua The Savior.
'God' is the Father here, the Savior is Yeshua.Acts 20:21
“While I was testifying to the Jews and to the Aramaeans about returning home to the Presence of God and the faith in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.”
The 'God' is the Father, the 'Lord' is Yeshua.
Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
I would say this is the Unity.Luke 18:19
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
Same as before, I would say this is the Unity.If Jesus was referring to himself then he would likely have said something like, “Yes I am good because I am God as is the Father”. Jesus clearly not including himself here.
……………Acts 2:36
“Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified.”
This would be the Father as God. Jesus as Yeshua, LORD Jehovah and the Messiah.Acts 10:36
For the word which he sent to the children of Israel and announced good news of peace and tranquility to them by Yeshua The Messiah, ( This One is LORD JEHOVAH of all ),
The 'he' would be the Father, the LORD JEHOVAH of all is Yeshua the Messiah.As for the rest, I can see that the problem here is that you insist that YHWH is Jesus.
……………t8,
According to these passages in the translation as displayed here, who is called Jehovah?Lu 2:11 For there is born to you this day a deliverer, who is the Lord Jehovah Messiah, in
the city of DavidJoh 8:11 And she said: No man, Lord Jehovah. And Jesus said: Neither do I condemn thee.
Go thou, and henceforth sin no more.Ac 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know, assuredly, that God hath made that
Jesus whom ye crucified, to be Lord Jehovah and Messiah.Ac 2:38 Simon said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of the
Lord Jehovah Jesus, for the remission of sins; so that ye may receive the gift of the
Holy Spirit.Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the legates, and related to them how
the Lord Jehovah appeared to him in the way, and how he conversed with him; and
how, in Damascus, he had discoursed openly in the name of Jesus.Ac 10:36 For this is the word, which he sent to the sons of Israel, announcing to them peace
and rest by Jesus Messiah, He is Lord Jehovah of all;Ro 14:9 Moreover, for this cause Messiah died, and revived, and arose; that he might be
Lord Jehovah of the dead and of the living.Ro 14:14 I know indeed, and am persuaded by the Lord Jehovah Jesus, that there is
nothing which is unclean in itself; but to him who thinketh any thing to be unclean, to
him only it is defiled.1Co 8:6 yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and
we in him; and one Lord Jehovah, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and
we also by him.1Co 11:27 He therefore, who eateth of the bread of the Lord Jehovah, and drinketh of his
cup, and is not worthy of it, is guilty of the blood of the Lord Jehovah, and of his
body.1Co 11:29 for, whoever eateth and drinketh of it, while he is unworthy, eateth and drinketh
condemnation on himself, by not discerning the body of the Lord Jehovah.1Co 12:3 I therefore inform you, that there is no man, that speaketh by the Spirit of God,
who saith that Jesus is accursed: neither can a man say that Jesus is the Lord
Jehovah, except by the Holy Spirit.1Co 15:47 The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was the Lord Jehovah
from heaven.Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord Jehovah,
to the glory of God his Father.Col 3:24 and know ye, that from our Lord ye will receive a recompense as the inheritance;
for ye serve the Lord Jehovah the Messiah.1Pe 3:15 but sanctify the Lord Jehovah the Messiah, in your hearts. And be ye ready for a
vindication, before every one who demandeth of you an account of the hope of your
faith,Re 22:20 ¶ He who testifieth these things, saith: Yes, I come quickly. Amen. Come, Lord
Jehovah Jesus!t8,
you said:Quote Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
I would say this is the Unity.Luke 18:19
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
Same as before, I would say this is the Unity.If Jesus was referring to himself then he would likely have said something like, “Yes I am good because I am God as is the Father”. Jesus clearly not including himself here.
Jesus asked questions of men. When they answered correctly, He praised them for their faith and or receiving truth revealed by God. I believe this might be the same type of thing. The young man answered without faith or revelation and he was not praised for his response.
If you think that Jesus isn't 'good' then you do not know Him, imo.
t8,
you said:Quote As for the rest, I can see that the problem here is that you insist that YHWH is Jesus. There is a reason for that…I just gave you about 17 verses that say that YHWH is Jesus. I didn't write them, just copied them and pasted them.
Here are some simple yes and no questions for you.
Included are scriptures that will aid you in your answers.
Please just scrape the whole page and put your answer after each question.1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.Do you agree that we should not go beyond the things that are written?
Acts 3:13–26
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. 14But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer toIs Jesus the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob?
Deuteronomy 18:15–19
15Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of JehovahIs Jesus Jehovah. If yes, then who is his servant?
Psalm 83:18
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.Is Jehovah the Most High?
Mark 5:7
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.Is Jesus, son of the Most High God?
And is it reasonable to say that Jesus is the son of Jehovah?Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,22:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,16:40) Mark 10:18
Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
I would say this is the Unity.
What unity.God and Jesus are united and so we can too.
I presume you are talking of the Father son union. And not including us.
“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.”
You see there are more than two in this unity.
Yes, t8,
I am talking the Father/Son union and not us.In this verse:
so that they may be one as we are one.”
There is a 'they' and there is a 'we.'
The 'they' are the believers in the 'we.'
There is a 'they' group and a 'we' group.
The 'they' group are to be one as the 'we' group are one.
The 'they' group contain many,
The 'we' group contain ONLY two.The 'we' group that is 'one' would consist of the one God and one Lord that Paul speaks of. This is the unity that reigns on the one throne of God in Revelations.
The 'they' group would be the 'us' that the 'we' group is for in 1 Cor 8:6.
To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.
So, in the 'we' unity there are ONLY two persons. This supports what I believe.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,23:34) t8,
According to these passages in the translation as displayed here, who is called Jehovah?Lu 2:11 For there is born to you this day a deliverer, who is the Lord Jehovah Messiah, in
the city of DavidJoh 8:11 And she said: No man, Lord Jehovah. And Jesus said: Neither do I condemn thee.
Go thou, and henceforth sin no more.Ac 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know, assuredly, that God hath made that
Jesus whom ye crucified, to be Lord Jehovah and Messiah.Ac 2:38 Simon said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of the
Lord Jehovah Jesus, for the remission of sins; so that ye may receive the gift of the
Holy Spirit.Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the legates, and related to them how
the Lord Jehovah appeared to him in the way, and how he conversed with him; and
how, in Damascus, he had discoursed openly in the name of Jesus.Ac 10:36 For this is the word, which he sent to the sons of Israel, announcing to them peace
and rest by Jesus Messiah, He is Lord Jehovah of all;Ro 14:9 Moreover, for this cause Messiah died, and revived, and arose; that he might be
Lord Jehovah of the dead and of the living.Ro 14:14 I know indeed, and am persuaded by the Lord Jehovah Jesus, that there is
nothing which is unclean in itself; but to him who thinketh any thing to be unclean, to
him only it is defiled.1Co 8:6 yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and
we in him; and one Lord Jehovah, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and
we also by him.1Co 11:27 He therefore, who eateth of the bread of the Lord Jehovah, and drinketh of his
cup, and is not worthy of it, is guilty of the blood of the Lord Jehovah, and of his
body.1Co 11:29 for, whoever eateth and drinketh of it, while he is unworthy, eateth and drinketh
condemnation on himself, by not discerning the body of the Lord Jehovah.1Co 12:3 I therefore inform you, that there is no man, that speaketh by the Spirit of God,
who saith that Jesus is accursed: neither can a man say that Jesus is the Lord
Jehovah, except by the Holy Spirit.1Co 15:47 The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was the Lord Jehovah
from heaven.Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord Jehovah,
to the glory of God his Father.Col 3:24 and know ye, that from our Lord ye will receive a recompense as the inheritance;
for ye serve the Lord Jehovah the Messiah.1Pe 3:15 but sanctify the Lord Jehovah the Messiah, in your hearts. And be ye ready for a
vindication, before every one who demandeth of you an account of the hope of your
faith,Re 22:20 ¶ He who testifieth these things, saith: Yes, I come quickly. Amen. Come, Lord
Jehovah Jesus!
t8,
According to these 17 passages in the translation as displayed here, who is called Jehovah?You have not answered this.
You do realize that I did not add to these scriptures but just copied and pasted them, correct?
Please answer this before asking me more questions.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,19:13) Lightenup,July wrote:t8,
According to these passages in the translation as displayed here, who is called Jehovah?
…………………..You have not answered this.
You do realize that I did not add to these scriptures but just copied and pasted them, correct?
Please answer this before asking me more questions.
Kathi.I haven't checked every single reference, but of that which I did check, none of them mention YHWH. I assume that the ones I didn't look at were similar in construction. Your mistake is to assume that kurios is translated as YHWH in all instances in scripture. It certainly is not.
OK, after all this here is the conclusion.
The flaw in your argument is to assume that Jesus is YHWH because he is called lord/kurios.
This is where your doctrine errs.
Actually t8, the verses that I quoted have an Aramaic interlinear to support them which came from the Aramaic manuscript, not a Greek manuscript (kurios is Greek). You are assuming that the original letters were written in Greek which does replace YHWH with kurios and leaves it unclear at times as to whether YHWH is what is meant. The Aramaic manuscripts use the same word for YHWH in the NT as there is in the Aramaic OT. This makes the Aramaic not subjective as to where the YHWH goes in the NT. This is objective.
So, the question is…was the Aramaic manuscript the original manuscript and then the Greek was translated from that…OR did the Apostles write their gospels in Greek originally and then they were translated into the Aramaic language.
This is a discussion that a few of the members here are discussing in about 4 threads besides this one. Since I believed that there were two persons who were both called YHWH BEFORE I knew anything about the Aramaic manuscripts, and since I found out that many of the early church fathers agree with that…AFTER I came to that conclusion while seeking God on the matter, I side with the many that believe in the Aramaic Primacy as stating that the original letters in the NT were written in Aramaic or Hebrew and not Greek.
t8
Quote I haven't checked every single reference, but of that which I did check, none of them mention YHWH. I assume that the ones I didn't look at were similar in construction. Your mistake is to assume that kurios is translated as YHWH in all instances in scripture. It certainly is not. You are not checking the translations from the Aramaic manuscripts but you are checking the translations from the Greek manuscript/s. This is why you are not seeing the YHWH mentioned.
If you go to this link:
http://aramaicnt.com/articles.htm
then go to the article entitled “MarYah (Lord Jehovah) in the Peshitta” a PDF file, you can see for yourself that YHWH should be in those 17 verses.Well, t8 have a good day on the other side of the world. It is very late here…nice discussing with you tonight! I'm gonna hit the sack as they say.
Good night,
KathiOK, so this is now an issue of a certain translation and if it is authentic or not.
Before we go there, I would like to tie up some loose ends here first.
1) Please answer the last post on page 5 dated with the following time stamp: Posted on Aug. 01 2012,19:02
2) Are there instances in the New Testament in our translations and the Greek where the word kurios is used of men?
Thanks. Once we have sorted through this, we can then look at the Aramaic Translation you are using and other things related to that.
Hi t8,
This is an issue with many translations based on the Aramaic manuscripts and the Aramaic word for YHWH in the OT and NT. It is also an issue of which manuscripts were translated into English directly from the original language of the apostles of the NT.Now to your post on page 5 which I will bump in the next post…
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2012,00:02) Here are some simple yes and no questions for you.
Included are scriptures that will aid you in your answers.
Please just scrape the whole page and put your answer after each question.1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.Do you agree that we should not go beyond the things that are written?
Acts 3:13–26
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. 14But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer toIs Jesus the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob?
Deuteronomy 18:15–19
15Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of JehovahIs Jesus Jehovah. If yes, then who is his servant?
Psalm 83:18
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.Is Jehovah the Most High?
Mark 5:7
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.Is Jesus, son of the Most High God?
And is it reasonable to say that Jesus is the son of Jehovah?
Ok, t8, here are your answers:Quote Do you agree that we should not go beyond the things that are written? This question is too vague for a yes or a no. Written where? Should context be considered? Should historical documents be consulted for greater understanding of the context?
Quote Is Jesus the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob? The unity of the Father and the Son is the Jehovah God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.
Quote Is Jesus Jehovah. If yes, then who is his servant? Jesus is Jehovah as the Son of Jehovah His Father.
(edited to add my answer to 'who is his servant?' which I forgot to answer the first time around)
Who is His servant…those who truly follow Him as Lord of their lives.Quote Is Jehovah the Most High? Jehovah the unity is the Most High unity.
Jehovah the Father is a member within the unity and has the greater authority of the two members within the unity.
Jehovah, the Son, is also a member within the unity and together with Jehovah, the Father creates, judges, acts supernaturally, offers salvation unto eternal life, and more.Quote
Is Jesus, son of the Most High God?Jesus is the son of the Most High member within the Most High unity. Within the Most High unity, there is the Father and the Son.
Quote And is it reasonable to say that Jesus is the son of Jehovah? Jesus is the son of Jehovah the Father. Jesus is Jehovah, the Son.
Now, t8, I did not answer with a 'yes' or 'no' because I do not think that would be sufficient for you to gain understanding of what my thoughts are on the matter.
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