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Anyway, I fully believe that Jesus has always been the Son of the one true God and thus an eternal part of Him…an offspring part.
You do not know what a son is or offspring is given your definition of the word in your teaching. If you have the wrong meaning of that word, then how can you believe that God has a son if you don’t know what a son or offspring is.
You say that Jesus always existed. But eternal life is to know the one true God and the son of that one true God. This is what I believe and I want more than anything to have eternal life. So I need to know God and his son.
How can you claim to know God and his son, if you declare that the Father is NOT the only true God and Jesus is not the son of the only true God. Just saying this to help you that is all.
@t8
If there is an always existent Father, then an always existent Son is implied. The two are interdependent.You seem to think that the Father is and was God apart from the Son, I do not agree. I believe that the Father as God of gods is dependent on the existence of the Son and the Son as Lord of lords is dependent on the existence of the Father. They have both always existed, one as part of the other. Together they are Jehovah, the God of gods AND the Lord of lords. Jehovah is BOTH.
Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.Acts 13:33
he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’You believe that God was always a father, thus Jesus was always in existence as the son that is next to him. Where is your proof. You are adding to scripture with your own understanding. There is no teaching in scripture that teaches or alludes to what you teach here.
Instead what we see in scripture is that God begat a son. Obviously God would be a Father when he begat the son.
One of the main tenets of the faith is that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is the begotten son of the Father. You oppose this with your teachings. This makes your teaching false and an enemy of the truth.
@t8
Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.Acts 13:33
that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’Do you see the difference between “today I have become your father” and “today I have begotten you?”
If the correct translation is “today I have become your father,” then that would imply that there was a time before this when He wasn’t His father.
If the correct translation is “today I have begotten you,” then that does not imply that there was a time before this when He wasn’t His father. What it implies is that there was a time before this when the Son wasn’t begotten.
Look at the original language or ask someone who knows how to do this and specifically look to see if the word ‘father’ is there. You will not find it. You don’t have to take my word for it, just follow the link to see for yourself:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/2-7.htmhttp://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/13-33.htm
This is not the first time you have been shown this. I know that you have had as your signature for many years something to the affect that a wise man, once shown his mistake, ceases from being mistaken. However a foolish man, once shown his mistake, continues to be mistaken. It went something like that, right?
@t8
Seems like you have no contest of what was last posted by me. It would be wise to accept this, t8 instead of hoping it will go away and be forgotten about, don’t you think?!
I am memorizing the first several verses in 2 Peter 1. This is a good verse, want to hide it in your heart too?
2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Btw, t8, I don’t believe that you have given me an answer to another question either. As I recall, it went like this:
Do you give all honor and praise to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit above all others; and do you love them with all your heart, soul, and mind?If you have answered this directly to me, please show me where.
Thank you and may our God and Savior, Jesus Christ richly bless you with knowledge of His own glory and excellence! 🙂
No matter how you view it, the Father is God and Jesus is the son of God. This is simplicity in Christ. Not hard to hear and easy to accept.
All you so-called experts, wise, and false teachers oppose God’s truth.
If you say Jesus is the son of God, then teach he is God, then you deny that he is the son of God.
If someone says that my son is also me, then they deny me and my son. They cannot know me.
I am the father of my son. My son was begotten and when he was born is not the point.
The point is Jesus is begotten whereas the Father never was begotten because he has always been.
God used the Father and Son terminology because that is something we obviously understand. Most false doctrine regarding this changes the concept of Father and Son. It takes some deception to fall for a different understanding of Father and Son. But many people’s hearts are wayward and the enemy only needs to give them a shove to push them off the narrow path.
Eve beheld the beautiful fruit that was on the Tree of Good and Evil and succumed to its temptation. Similarly, many become enamoured with doctrines that are at first strange to them, but because their hearts are wayward, they entertain them and accept them more over time for reasons other than loving the truth.
@t8
It seems that you keep thinking that Christians are saying that the Father is God the Father, and Jesus is God the Father BUT that is not what is being said. Christians understand that there is Jehovah God the Father who is the God of gods AND Jehovah God the Son who is Lord of lords. The Son is part of the Father, a part that has the same makeup as the Father. What one is, the other is in essence, not in relationship.@t8
A MUST ANSWER QUESTION:Do you give all honor and praise to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit above all others; and do you love them with all your heart, soul, and mind?
It seems that you keep thinking that Christians are saying that the Father is God the Father, and Jesus is God the Father
No LU, that is what you are hoping it is.
Jesus is the son of God and the son of the Father because God and Father are mostly interchangeable, at least when it is talking of the true God.
It says the son of God mostly, not son of the Father. Get use to it. God is the Father. He is one God. He is the true God. There are scriptures for all these statements. He allows wayward hearts to go their own way of course, but it is up to you to love the truth or go your own way. Only you can choose for yourself.
I give honour to God as God, the son as the son of that God and as my Lord and messiah, and the spirit is the spirit of God. So yes I honour the Spirit because the Father is the Father of all spirits. Spirit comes from him. God is spirit.
@t8
you said:No LU, that is what you are hoping it is.
I am not hoping that Jesus is God the Father. What makes you think that? The Father is the true God, the Son has always been a part of that true God. Each bear the name YHWH, one as the God of gods and the other as the Lord of lords.
I give honour to God as God, the son as the son of that God and as my Lord and messiah, and the spirit is the spirit of God. So yes I honour the Spirit because the Father is the Father of all spirits. Spirit comes from him. God is spirit.
Please answer this: If Jesus is YHWH as the Lord of lords and you deny this, would that be honoring to Jesus or the Father? Is denying something that is true honorable in anyway?
LU, you say God the Father, but scripture mostly says God and means the Father.
A few times theos and elohim are applied in a different way. It is there that people try to create weird doctrines to somehow infringe on the truth that there is one true God who is exclusively the Father. People love to challenge these fundamental truths because God is on trial at the moment in the hearts of men and with the angels that fell. But others who are called the elect among men and angels stayed with him and do not argue against him. It is these that live with him eternally in love.
If God declares that there is no one else but him as God and if Jesus agrees that the only true God is the Father, then to say otherwise is to not believe the testimony of the son, and further to lie about God himself. Those who reject God and all practicing liars have no place in the Kingdom of God.
If I said that I was the only father of my son and husband in my family, but you told me that this was not true, but that another was also, then I would know that you were of the spirit of error. God is the God of truth, life, and love. It is Satan that creates lies and challenges God. Saying that one challenge is okay or that a lie might be okay is then to say that Satan is okay. He is not the Father of a lie, but all lies. That includes doctrines such as a binary God or a trinue God.
Our true father is the one who we declare by our own nature and actions. While the flesh is nothing, if we go around creating false doctrine, then that is not part of God’s Kingdom but Satan’s Kingdom. Jesus said the Pharisees were of their Father the Devil. They rejected truth for their own view on things and they also ignored the weightier things of the law such as love and mercy and argued from the letter. They missed their messiah.
While the letter is good, it does not of itself give us life. So it brings death on its own. False doctrine is but a reflection of what is in the person’s heart by whom the doctrine came. Woe to those because of those that fall from their stumbling block. The fact that there is one God the Father is so fundamental to truth that anything that says otherwise is fundamentally wrong.
Hi t8,
I just read your last post. I hope you are doing well. I have read in other topics where you have tried to tell people that I believe in two Gods but that does not give the accurate FULLNESS of what I believe. Maybe if I use the word “facet” in my description, you would find it easier to understand, so here goes…
Think about a single parent cell (I know it has been a while since Biology class).
1.One facet is the whole single parent cell which includes the offspring cell within it. That would be the single parent cell in it’s FULLEST form. Without the offspring cell within it or begotten from it, it wouldn’t be a parent cell at all, btw.
2.Another facet is the inner offspring cell which, in the case of #1, is just about to be begotten from the parent cell. That cell is NOT a parent cell but a part of the parent cell. The reality is that there are two cells with identical parts except one doesn’t have an offspring cell within it. That is a word picture of how two things are identical in type but unique in relationship and interdependent on each other to have that relationship.
So, #1 could be called the Father OR both the Father AND the Son. #2 could be only called the Son. You cannot have #1 without #2. Together they represent the FULLNESS of #1. In the Bible, context will help you distinguish which facet of the fullness of God that you are referring to. Whether the contexts refer to the Father only, the Son only, or BOTH as ONE in the FULLEST sense. We realize that the Father and Son are not simple cells but are actual relational beings and although identical in type, there is not only a difference in relationship but also a difference in authority as would be natural.
Now, regarding the Holy Spirit, I simply believe that each entity, the parent and the offspring, both have within them their own spirit and those spirits are united as one spirit while still maintaining their uniqueness. This one united spirit is within them and can extend from them to be anywhere that united spirit is directed, even within believers and even at the bottom of the sea…wherever.
Hoping to clarify,
LU
LU, it is not that I do not understand your position, it is that I do understand it and find it at serious odds with scripture. You do not have to explain it to me. I know it already, it is very similar to the Trinity arguments I have been addressing for some years now and the same arguments I once espoused to.
You make a lot of points which would be a lot to address, but you say you cannot have one without the other. May I remind you that the Father can exist without a son, it is just that he would not be known by that title. I still existed before I had a son and before I became a Father.
I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.
Whatever the above scripture is referencing, it is clear that you become a Father when you have a son.
Can you have a son without the Father. The answer is no. Yes the son is dependant on the Father, but the Father not on the son.
The Father is the Father of all spirits. Even the son owes all to the Father.
The Father is the one true God. He is Jesus own God and our God. The head of Christ is God too.
Jesus is the son. true Believers are sons and will be like Jesus.
I will address more points later as I have to head off now.
@t8
T8, you said:
May I remind you that the Father can exist without a son
None of your arguments have proving that the Father DID exist without a Son. Even your scripture that you put in your post. I have given you a word picture to show how it is possible that the Father and Son eternally could have co-existed and still be truly Father and Son.
The verse you mentioned:
I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.
#1. We already know that the Father called Jesus His Son way before the resurrection day which that decree is referring to. So the better translation is what many of the study Bibles translate it as:
Psalm 2:7I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you. ESVThe Son was begotten from the grave/death, and He became the Firstborn from the dead. Did you realize that is what the decree is referring to? We know that from this following passage as well as the context of Psalm 2:
Acts 13:32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’Must answer questions:
Can you see that, t8? This is NOT a piece of scripture that you can successfully use to show that there was a time when the Son did not exist.
Do you have any other verses that can prove that the Son did not eternally exist as part of the fullness of God?
LU, it should be the other way round. The burden of proof is not with me as I accept that God is the Father and Jesus is the son.
If David was the Father of Absalom, then by implication of being a son, his Father is the root and not the branch.
If Jesus is the son of God, then that word is used for a reason. Binities, Trinities, Quadrinities, etc are basically stating that Jesus is not a son, rather an eternal person along with another eternal person. Any inferiority or second place is opted. i.e., Jesus decided to be the son rather than the Father even though both are supposedly equal, eternal, and 100% God. Did they flip a coin as to who would be the son? According to your doctrine, did this Jesus GOD just volunteer the idea because he is such a good guy?
Does your doctrine explain why Jesus is the son even if he is equal, eternal, infinite, and 100% God?
Or could it be as simple as the early Fathers put it. That the Logos was begotten from God as the first work?
Let’s be clear, adding to what is written and changing truth for a lie is evil.
For us there is one God the Father. For others there are other gods. If you choose the latter, then that is up to you.
@t8
I will answer your question but first there is a question of mine to you that you need to answer. That question is this:
Can you see that, t8? This is NOT a piece of scripture that you can successfully use to show that there was a time when the Son did not exist.
It is in regards to the piece of scripture that you recently used as a support to the Father becoming a father as if He was not one beforehand. For your reminder, this is what you try to use as a proof text:
I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.
Again…here is proof to you that you cannot use that passage to show that the Father was not a father beforehand.
#1. We already know that the Father called Jesus His Son way before the resurrection day which is the day that decree is referring to. So the better translation is what many of the study Bibles translate it as:
Psalm 2:7I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you. ESVThe Son was begotten from the grave/death, and He became the Firstborn from the dead. Did you realize that is what the decree is referring to? We know that from this following passage as well as the context of Psalm 2:
Acts 13:32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’Please acknowledge that you now realize that this passage is not one that proves that the Father was not a father beforehand before we can move on.
Can you see that, t8? This is NOT a piece of scripture that you can successfully use to show that there was a time when the Son did not exist.
Kathi. Jesus is called the son and this word ‘son’ has a meaning and a relationship with the word ‘father’. God is the Father and this word ‘father’ has a meaning too.
The fact that God is the Father and Jesus is his son is easy to understand because God made us in his image and we too can be fathers/mothers and have sons/daughters. While we may not have all the intricate details about Jesus ancient origins as long as we believe that God is the Father and Jesus is the son of God, then we show that our belief has been revealed to us by God. If we do not believe this, then such a person is under the influence of the Antichrirst spirit which has pervaded most religion of men and their never-ending diverging ideas about God.
As to when the son came to be, I do not have all the details for surely I am too young to give you an exact account. Needless to say that Jesus is the son of the eternal God, that he is the firstborn of all creation, and the one whom God sent into the world to become one of us, so we could become like him.
He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, was obedient to God and in accordance with this he also suffered and died for our sins. God raised him from the dead, and now he is seated with God at his right hand side in the glory he had with him before the cosmos. The Word that became flesh was with God in the beginning. Before that, well I can say that it is safe to say that God was there and God had in himself the Logos/Word. At what point was the Logos WITH God I cannot tell you. But I assume it was before the cosmos.
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