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Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,19:33) Yeshua is not God is salvation. It is Jehovah is salvation.
And what a fitting name for the one whom God sent into the world.The only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jesus said, remove this cup from me, but not my will but your will.
Clearly Jesus did the will of God and he gave up his life so that God could save us.
Clearly being called 'Jehovah is salvation' is not saying that he is Jehovah in the same way that Isaiah means pretty much the same thing. If you make Jesus YHWH because of that name, then add in Isaiah too among others.
Obviously your argument here is no argument at all. Just another attempt to pass of your false doctrine as a true one.
So back to my point.
You admit that the Father is the only true God and that Jesus is not the only true God.
Then you say that Jesus is the begotten God instead.The first God is the only true one.
The second God is the begotten one.They are two different Gods according to you.
Can you see your two Gods now.
If they were one God, then they would both be the only true God, although that in itself is an oxymoron.
But your doctrine is certainly moronic as it is an even worse oxymoron. Because the Father is the only true God as you agree and the son is not, yet they are one God according to you. The mystery of the Binity is it?
Perfect example of an oxymoron.
Now my question. Can you see that you actually teach 2 different Gods?
Quote (t8 @ May 19 2013,19:33) Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,19:33) Yeshua is not God is salvation. It is Jehovah is salvation.
And what a fitting name for the one whom God sent into the world.The only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jesus said, remove this cup from me, but not my will but your will.
Clearly Jesus did the will of God and he gave up his life so that God could save us.
Clearly being called 'Jehovah is salvation' is not saying that he is Jehovah in the same way that Isaiah means pretty much the same thing. If you make Jesus YHWH because of that name, then add in Isaiah too among others.
Obviously your argument here is no argument at all. Just another attempt to pass of your false doctrine as a true one.
I was just correcting you as to what Yeshua meant. I wasn't making an argument here.I believe that the Son was called Jehovah and the Father was called Jehovah in the OT. So, by the time of Christ coming in the flesh, He already had been given His Father's name. He was given the name Yeshua as a baby but before His flesh existence, He was given the name Jehovah. Then later as the Branch, the Bible says that He will be called by the name Jehovah our Righteousness.
Also, the Father and the Son are two different gods operating together as one eternal God intimate unity, with the name Jehovah. The ONLY Begotten God is in the bosom of Father God.
Well you said it Kathi. Two different Gods operating in unity.
Like Adam and Eve were two different persons and one in unity.You believe in two different Gods. I am gad that you admit that because that is exactly what you teach and believe.
You teach multiple Gods, therefore I have made you admit that you are a Polytheist and if you think that is okay, then I really can't help you any further. You have chosen this belief and your will is sovereign to you alone.
And your argument that the son of God was previously named YHWH is a bad one. Many others have similar names and they are not God. This point of yours proves nothing. Further YHWH sends messengers to deliver his word and to deliver people. When they speak they are speaking the words of YHWH. Do not confuse the message and messenger for YHWH. Revelation 1:1 is a good place to see how this works.
I believe you have lost this debate. In fact I am moving it to debates because it is more of a debate than the Hot Seat. The Hot Seat is more suited to a single question or belief that someone holds that requires accountability. I think we have been debating from both sides, yours and mine. If you don't agree, I will move it back here for you.
That's fine to have the discussion moved here.
I am not a polytheist, you are. You believe in many theos and you have them ranked. I believe in one Jehovah God who is both God of gods and Lord of lords.That is a joke Kathi.
And it is disingenuous of you to say that I am a Polytheist for the reason you gave. You have seen the scriptures yourself that 'theos' is applied to more than God the Father and includes his counsels. Thus because I believe that reality in scripture, you say that makes me a Polytheist? If so, then you have to admit that scripture is teaching Polytheism by your definition and to conform, you yourself should become a Polytheist.
See that. You lost that point didn't you? if you care to think about it, your rebuttal is discrediting scripture itself. Do I need to remind you that I didn't write scripture, so if it teaches Polytheism then it is not my fault. Clearly your rebuttal failed if you believe that scripture is inspired by God and that Polytheism is also false because we have a clear contradiction and a confused God in that scripture teaches Polytheism by your definition and understanding. This gives rise to an obvious and logical question, is scripture wrong or you?
You are actually the Polytheist because while I believe as Paul and Jesus did that there is one God the Father and that he is the only true God, while also legitimately believing that theos can be be applied to others in a different sense as scripture testifies, you believe that there are TWO who hold that position of YHWH the one God. Your two Gods but one God is truly an oxymoron and does not stand scrutiny. You are as confused as the Trinitarians and thus your last argument like there's will likely be that the Binity is a mystery, although I am sure you want use those exact words because that will show your defeat.
I think this debate is wrapping up. The nails have been put into the coffin now. Unless you come up with something different that I cannot refute or some actual proof of your teaching, then it is dead in the water.
Another nail for your teaching.
John 5:43
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.If the Father is YHWH and Jesus came in that name, and Jesus came not in his name which is YHWH, then he came in the name of YHWH and not in the name of YHWH.
Kathi you need to do an honest study about the meaning of a name. For example we should do all in the name of Jesus Christ. Usually we do something in the name of something higher than us. Jesus came in his Father's name, we come in the name of Jesus, so tell me, whose name did the Father come in?
Quote And it is disingenuous of you to say that I am a Polytheist for the reason you gave. You are a polytheist because you do spiritual actions in the name of another theos. You pray in the name of another theos who is not Jehovah. You bow down to another theos in an act of worship who is not Jehovah. You believe in another theos for eternal life who is not Jehovah. If you deny this by declaring that in those instances, he is not a theos but the Son of God, then you are speaking out of two sides of your mouth as if Christ is divided. Sometimes he is theos, but when you are worshiping Him, He is not a theos. Or when you are praying in His name, He is not a theos. etc.
t8, invoking another theos, bowing down to another theos in a manner of religious worship, making a covenant through another theos other than Jehovah, etc…is against the first commandment.
I have one God the Father and one God the Son and neither of them are a theos other than Jehovah.
Btw, you need to learn about coming in the name of another…it is about authority. That verse in John 5 has nothing to do with Jesus getting named the Father's name. The verse that tells us that Jesus' name is the same as the Father's is in John 17, and is first played out in the OT where Jesus is called Jehovah. Believers will be calling Him Jehovah our Righteousness.
Oh, btw, I was wondering how someone who claims to be so spiritually in tune, as you claim to be, hadn't picked up on jb's doctrine that Jesus is just a man until now? Very telling.
Kathi you are desperate. How many times do you have to lose on points before you realise that perhaps you are wrong.
And one of these days you might actually win a point from me and I am happy for that because you might teach me something. But even in that circumstance, it would not prove by any means that God was two.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,21:26) t8, invoking another theos, bowing down to another theos in a manner of religious worship, making a covenant through another theos other than Jehovah, etc…is against the first commandment.
I worship and pray to God through Jesus Christ my Lord.Against this there is no accusation.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,21:26) You are a polytheist because you do spiritual actions in the name of another theos. You pray in the name of another theos who is not Jehovah. You bow down to another theos in an act of worship who is not Jehovah. You believe in another theos for eternal life who is not Jehovah. If you deny this by declaring that in those instances, he is not a theos but the Son of God, then you are speaking out of two sides of your mouth as if Christ is divided. Sometimes he is theos, but when you are worshiping Him, He is not a theos. Or when you are praying in His name, He is not a theos. etc.
False. Your false teaching is leading to other false teachings in order to support the original false teaching.God sent his son into the world and it is only THROUGH him that we have fellowship with God. So in the name of Yeshua are we saved.
Acts 4:10-12
Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nothing of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.Kathi, now your false teaching is contaminating your gospel.
You either believe that Jesus is the messiah and that in his name has God chosen for us to be saved. If you want to go direct to God without the Messiah, then I cannot even wish you luck with that. Because you will be considered a robber. Is Kathi a robber now?
John 10:1
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,21:26) Btw, you need to learn about coming in the name of another…it is about authority. That verse in John 5 has nothing to do with Jesus getting named the Father's name. The verse that tells us that Jesus' name is the same as the Father's is in John 17, and is first played out in the OT where Jesus is called Jehovah. Believers will be calling Him Jehovah our Righteousness.
But not YHWH.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,21:26) Oh, btw, I was wondering how someone who claims to be so spiritually in tune, as you claim to be, hadn't picked up on jb's doctrine that Jesus is just a man until now? Very telling.
Must answer question.
Did you know then before he mentioned it?
Yes / NoAnd the reason I didn't know is the same reason why I don't know how old he is. That is, he never mentioned it, or I never read a post of his where it was mentioned.
So because I am not a mind reader that means that somehow I failed. Is that it? What is your point?
Quote (t8 @ May 23 2013,21:12) Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,21:26) t8, invoking another theos, bowing down to another theos in a manner of religious worship, making a covenant through another theos other than Jehovah, etc…is against the first commandment.
I worship and pray to God through Jesus Christ my Lord.Against this there is no accusation.
You pray to Jehovah through the name of another god who is not Jehovah.I pray to Jehovah through another God who is also Jehovah.
If you invoke the name of another god you are going against scriptures. Plain and simple.
It is absolutely fine to pray to God the Father through God the Son because both are Jehovah, the Son is not a god who is not Jehovah as you think.
I think this is too simple that you can't comprehend it.
Quote You pray to Jehovah through the name of another god who is not Jehovah.
I pray to God through the one name that I can be saved, Yeshua. Change another god for son of God and then you have it.Quote I pray to Jehovah through another God who is also Jehovah.
Correct, you pray to the Most High God through the begotten God. So you pray to one God through another God and call them singularly God and both God.Quote If you invoke the name of another god you are going against scriptures. Plain and simple.
But if I invoke the name of the son of God, then I do well. This is what I do. You cannot accuse me of wrong on this.Quote It is absolutely fine to pray to God the Father through God the Son because both are Jehovah, the Son is not a god who is not Jehovah as you think. I think this is too simple that you can't comprehend it.
It is not so simple that I cannot comprehend it, rather it is so false that I cannot accept it.Quote (t8 @ May 23 2013,21:17) Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2013,21:26) Btw, you need to learn about coming in the name of another…it is about authority. That verse in John 5 has nothing to do with Jesus getting named the Father's name. The verse that tells us that Jesus' name is the same as the Father's is in John 17, and is first played out in the OT where Jesus is called Jehovah. Believers will be calling Him Jehovah our Righteousness.
But not YHWH.
That's silly. If I call you “t8 our moderator” I am still calling you t8.Jehovah has many descriptives given to Him as His name. Tell me which ones aren't Jehovah:
JEHOVAH JIREH (Jehovah our Provider)
JEHOVAH RAPHA (Jehovah our Healer)
JEHOVAH RAAH (Jehovah our Shepherd)
JEHOVAH TSIDKENU (Jehovah our Righteousness)t8,
you said:
Quote
I pray to God through the one name that I can be saved, Yeshua. Change another god for son of God and then you have it.The 'Son of God', according to you = 'another god'.
Maybe I can take the time to test your theory and call it “The t8 Doctrine Test.” In this test I can find all or several of the verses that have “God the Father AND… either the Lord Jesus, Son of God, the Christ, etc. and substitute 'another god who is NOT Jehovah' in that place and see how you are going against Jehovah. To test what most Christian's understand which is what I am teaching, just replace the Lord Jesus, Son of God or the Christ with 'another God who is also Jehovah.' That would be telling as to whose understanding lines up with Jehovah's commands and whose does not.Quote Correct, you pray to the Most High God through the begotten God. So you pray to one God through another God and call them singularly God and both God. I call them both Jehovah. You only call one Jehovah. You have Jehovah and another god who is not Jehovah.
Quote But if I invoke the name of the son of God, then I do well. This is what I do. You cannot accuse me of wrong on this. You invoke a son of God who you think is another god other than Jehovah. You do not do well. The gods other than Jehovah are pagan gods.
Quote It is not so simple that I cannot comprehend it, rather it is so false that I cannot accept it. Then pray for a true revelation of the one who is named “Jehovah our Righteousness.”
Quote Did you know then before he mentioned it?
Yes / NoYes, I am the one who persisted in dragging it out of him. You can see this in the debate.
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