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Quote Q: Are you part of the 'us' that Paul is talking about here? Yes!
Question for you:
Do you believe Jehovah is both God and Lord?What a joke. You are clearly not “US” in that verse because you do not believe for one minute that there is one God the Father. In fact you spend your time arguing against this by saying that there are two who are God, the Father and the Son. Get real LU.
Are you that deceived that you somehow think you can be “US” and still believe that the Father is not the only one who is the one true God along with other witness verses?
If you cannot even sort this out, then you are not a worthy opponent. At this stage you are definitely an opponent, but never have you been a worthy one IMO.
I like to debate and discuss with reasonable people and those who can be honest about things. People who can admit the obvious and admit that one plus one equals two, or that for us there is one God the Father means what it says. And why do I expect such reason from an opponent? Because anything less is arguing with a moron or a person afflicted with mental and/or spiritual blindness. Further I like to debate reasonable people because even if they are wrong, I will likely learn something from them and they will change their tune when the see the error of their way, and if they happen to be right, then I learn a new truth and have a new opportunity to be changed.
But what can you teach me? Well I admit that you make me look a little deeper into what I believe, but I really do not even need to do that because I defeat you with the most basic of scriptures. But you have taught me another thing admittedly. Scripture shows us that God hands people over to strong delusions when they rebel against his truth. I see the same sort of silliness with Atheists that I have debated with and you have demonstrated how this happens with Believers and how they depart the faith for other doctrines. In fact even though you are not a Trinitarian yet, you have shown me in a sped up fashion how this dcotrine came to be. From a person who believed in one God to a multi-person God with all the human reasoning and stubborness in between to fuel the journey.
I ask this in earnest. Is it possible to send me a worthy opponent who holds your view? Someone who can at least admit the obvious and say that they do not believe, that there is one God the Father for example. Until then and despite whether you send others here or not, I will answer your questions and you hopefully mine because I have already agreed to this debate.
Maybe I will never get a worthy opponent because no one who teaches that there are multiple persons as one God or who teach that there is no God at all can ever be a worthy opponent. Scripture labels the latter as fools. And all fools demonstrate to me is their blindness.
t8,
Where have I EVER stated that there are two (or more) God the Fathers??Truly you ought to stop slandering me. Also WHERE have you ever defeated me with scripture where I haven't comeback with a legitimate scriptural or reasonable challenge? I can't think of one time.
Sooooo…now, hot shot t8, you have 3 questions to answer, the two in this post and the one above your last post. Please answer.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 14 2013,08:12) t8,
Where have I EVER stated that there are two (or more) God the Fathers??Truly you ought to stop slandering me. Also WHERE have you ever defeated me with scripture where I haven't comeback with a legitimate scriptural or reasonable challenge? I can't think of one time.
I haven't and neither have I accused you of that. This is your way of changing the incriminating evidence against your Antichrist doctrine. By introducing a point that I have not made so that you look like you are being slandered, thus taking the heat off the real evidence that I speak of.And if you think that I am wrong by calling your doctrine, antichrist? Look again at the evidence. One of the sure signs of an antichrist is that they deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Your doctrine does this by saying that Yahweh came in the flesh.
Because you say Jesus is Yahweh, that is just a subtle way of preaching an antichrist doctrine and trying to get people to follow it.
To set the record straight, it was Jesus who died, not Yahweh. It was Jesus who came in the flesh not Yahweh. And it is the Father who is the only true God. Your doctrine is designed (whether you are aware of it or not) to detract men away from Jesus being the son of God. This work is not of God but of his enemy. Jesus built his Church on the truth that Jesus is the son of God. It amazes me how many people oppose this with this doctrine or that. And even the Devil tried that one too, by asking questions to get Jesus to doubt. “If you are the son of God…”
I can understand why the Devil would have us doubt that Jesus is the son of God, but I do not understand for what purpose men do this. There is no good reward for doing this. I can only assume that it is pride in their own understanding that leads them down this road as God does hand people over to powerful delusions. When this happens they become pawns for the God of this world.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 14 2013,08:12) Sooooo…now, hot shot t8, you have 3 questions to answer, the two in this post and the one above your last post. Please answer.
Sure thing. Will make a coffee first.And for now we will ignore the elephant in the room, i.e., that you say you believe that there is one God the Father, when you really believe that there is one God the Father and Son. We can revisit this later in the debate. First I would like to defeat you on other points, then I can use that one as the last nail in your doctrine.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 10 2013,06:25) Do you believe Jehovah is both God and Lord?
Obviously I do. He is over all even the Lord Jesus Christ.Where you err is this. The Father is God over all and he made Jesus to be Lord over all things except for God of course.
Thus the Father is the only true God and he sent the one whom he made Lord to redeem all things back to God.
So who has God appointed as lord of all that he has? Jesus of course. But did he make him lord over God himself, clearly no.
So, by a little word trickery you try to give the appearance there is one God the Father and Son and there is one Lord, the Lord Father and the Lord Jesus. But Paul already interprets the truth of the matter here and when you compare your version with his, they are so completely different that you can only conclude that either he was right or you. But never can both of you be right.
Also, if the Lord has a God, then we don't need to call God by the title Lord by reason of the fact that the word 'God' describes aptly that he is even over the one who he made Lord.
Now I too can use both theos and kurios to describe many who are neither the Father or the Son, and I too could add them into this Godhead of yours for the same reasons you have added Jesus to your idea of God.
Scripture is clear that God is even over the Lord. We see a number of places this order: God/Father > Christ/Lord > Man/adam > Woman/adam.
Think of it as saying there is one President and one vice president. The vice president is technically still a president and the sort of president he is is denoted by the prefix. However, we cannot make the argument that he can be over or equal to the president because technically speaking the vice-president is still a president. Such an argument is moronic because it is obvious what is going on here and no one would debate it. However, you resort to this kind of word trickery because you have an agenda to push and through lack of real evidence, you are forced to play with words in this manner.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2013,19:17) You believe that Jesus is not The God but he is another god. True or false?
I believe that Jesus is not the Most High God, but that he is the one whom the Most High sent into the world.If we use the word theos qualitatively, I believe you can apply it to God the Father, the son of God, angels, and counsels including men.
This is the reality of the Greek language as testified in scripture. I simply concur with it. I neither made any of this up and I did not create the Greek language either. I am only accepting what is there.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 08 2013,12:51) Hold on there, t8. I didn't add words to scripture and claimed it was a scripture. I explained my understanding. Commentaries do this all the time. Do you deny that Jesus is the only true begotten theos?
No Kathi, I simply and effectively pointed out that you cannot read the scripture as is, but need to add in words to get your view. Commentaries add in words to further describe something. Not for the purpose of changing the meaning.Quote Do you deny that Jesus is the only true begotten theos?
Well if we are begotten too and we can be called theos, then technically we are begotten gods too. Did you not know that we will judge angels. Did you not know that Jesus will give us authority to rule with him and to be seated on his throne and be part of his counsel? Have you not read that our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his?Thus if Jesus is the only true God and Most High God because you say that he is the begotten God, then you have to add his redeemed in as well.
As it stands, the begotten theos is not a title that assumes that he is YHWH, The Most High, or the only true God. Rather that is the Father.
Question: Do you believe that the ONLY TRUE GOD sent his son into the world and that the son he sent is not himself?
You think I am anti-Christ??…what a delusion those demon monkeys have got you in, t8. I am trying to help you get them off your back, they are not your friends.
Quote Question: Do you believe that the ONLY TRUE GOD sent his son into the world and that the son he sent is not himself? Yes, if you are talking about the only true God that sent His Son, the only Begotten God, into the world who says (a revelation that God, the Father gave Him to share with us about Himself -Jesus, btw):
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”You will find that in your Greek manuscript, t8. Rev 1:8
Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,09:03) You think I am anti-Christ??…what a delusion those demon monkeys have got you in, t8. I am trying to help you get them off your back, they are not your friends.
Your teaching leans toward denying the son as many teachings do. It seems that men want Jesus to be anyone rather than the son of God. By calling him God and getting people to accept that, it just opens up the door for even more destructive doctrines too.So yes your doctrine is antichrist. But at best you may be a genuine person, nevertheless deceived by an antichrist doctrine, perhaps because of pride in your own understanding. That is one thing, worse is that you teach others this and will be 100% accountable for it.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2013,10:27) Yes:
Jeremiah 23
5Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
There are a number of names based on Yahweh and none of these people are Yahweh. A section is below and I have not verified the meanings. Nevertheless, it is a fact that there are names that mean things like 'Jehovah our righteousness'.Isaiah – Yahweh is salvation
Jacob – Yahweh may protect
Jebediah – beloved of Yahweh
Joachim – Yahweh will establish
Yeshua – God is salvation
Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,09:09) Yes, if you are talking about the only true God that sent His Son, the only Begotten God, into the world who says (a revelation that God, the Father gave Him to share with us about Himself -Jesus, btw):
So even your confused answer admits that Jesus is not the only true God but another God, the begotten one.You are forced into this ridiculous statement because you want to retain your teaching while also trying your best to agree with Paul.
So let's look at your answer. We have one who is the only true God. We have another who is the Begotten God.
I count 2 different God's here and so could anyone who has the ability to count up to 2.
Yet you would have us also believe that they are one God in the Spirit when you have plainly said there is the only true God and also a Begotten God.
Another big fail Kathi. You know it is just easier to accept the truth than make a lie look like the truth. The latter is hard work.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,09:09) 8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly the Father. Further, in verse 1 it says that there is an actual angel speaking these words, and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes this God.Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 AND from Jesus Christ,So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another.
It continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and then it goes back to talking about the Lord God who we know was the originator of the Revelation who gave it to Christ.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Clearly not Jesus Kathi.
Again, your so-called proof is not proof at all and clearly can be seen to not support your view.
But even of it were Jesus being referred to here, even though it is clearly the Lord God, even that false assumption doesn't teach the Trinity or Binity. Either way you argue it, you have lost. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I could be the last. But that alone would not mean that I was God.
However, I believe this verse is clearly talking about the God who gave the revelation to Jesus. That God is the Father and he is the Lord God.
t8,
The revelation is about Jesus, not the Father. Jesus is called God and He is called Lord and He is also called Jehovah.Quote (t8 @ May 17 2013,19:55) Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2013,10:27) Yes:
Jeremiah 23
5Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
There are a number of names based on Yahweh and none of these people are Yahweh. A section is below and I have not verified the meanings. Nevertheless, it is a fact that there are names that mean things like 'Jehovah our righteousness'.Isaiah – Yahweh is salvation
Jacob – Yahweh may protect
Jebediah – beloved of Yahweh
Joachim – Yahweh will establish
Yeshua – God is salvation
Yeshua is not God is salvation. It is Jehovah is salvation.The Branch will be called Jehovah our Righteousness.
Who does the NT say becomes OUR righteousness?
The Father OR the Son?Quote It seems that men want Jesus to be anyone rather than the son of God. Jesus is many things including the Son of God, Lord of all, mighty God, Lord of lords, Word of God, Almighty…
Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,19:29) t8,
The revelation is about Jesus, not the Father. Jesus is called God and He is called Lord and He is also called Jehovah.
Nevertheless, it is given by God and God talks about himself and the son. You see the testimony of God is to believe that he sent his son.Whereas you believe that God sent God/himself.
If you deny that God who gave the revelation of the son does mention himself in Revelations, then I could certainly show your failure many times over.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,19:35) Quote It seems that men want Jesus to be anyone rather than the son of God. Jesus is many things including the Son of God, Lord of all, mighty God, Lord of lords, Word of God, Almighty…
Yes many things. But not the most High God and not another God either. He is the son of God. Denying that truth even diverting that truth is of the antichrist spirit.Jesus is the highest after the Most High. He is seated with the Father on his throne. No amount of pushing Jesus one more notch up is going to make it true. While you may be trying to flatter Jesus with that, you are breaking the first commandment and rejecting the Father as the only true God.
And a word against Jesus can be forgiven, but it is blasphemy to demote God the Father or to make anyone equal to him, or to merge him with other beings.
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