- This topic has 713 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
It is after all good to be clear about things, honest about things, and to explain things in simple terms. We shouldn't need to employ lawyers to protect ourselves from others who call themselves Believers.
So ask the question again with all intent visible, so I can give an honest answer to the question.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2013,18:00) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2013,17:39) Worship him as theos of theos and son of that theos of theos?
I am not confused as you are kathi.I worship him as the son of God and the Lamb of God.
He is the Word become flesh. Not God become flesh.I have seen clearly how obstinate people end up being cursed with delusion many times now.
It is very important that we hold the truth in the highest esteem. When we think we can create truth for ourselves, we become deluded. Thanks for the demo, but it would be better if you had an excellent spirit. But at least thanks for the valuable lesson you have demonstrated to us that shows how we too could stumble if like yourself, we felt we were free to make the truth what we want.
t8,
Your response shows your confusion. I will rewrite my question to help you hopefully understand better.your obviously confusing response:
Quote Worship him as theos of theos and son of that theos of theos? He is a theos of/from/belonging to another theos…do you deny or accept this?
He is also a son of the theos of theos…do you deny or accept this?
You admit that Jesus is worshiped as:
the Lamb of theos
the Son of theos
and that He is a theos,but
can you admit that, being a theos Himself, He is actually 'of/from/belonging to' another theos, and should be worshiped as a theos of/from/belonging to another theos?
There, I have rewritten the question. Is it still too difficult for you?
Please answer each question here before asking a question. Then when you have, I will address your new question above this post.
As you can see, I asked pretty clearly in this post that I quoted. Here is the question from that post once again:can you admit that, being a theos Himself, He is actually 'of/from/belonging to' another theos, and should be worshiped as a theos of/from/belonging to another theos?
I advised you in another topic that if Jesus concurs with this:
Ye are gods, you are all sons of the Most High God, then of course Jesus being the son of God would certainly not only be applicible, but he would certainly be greater being the prototype son of God.
Thus depending on your motive, I might have to answer differently.
And the simple fact that you cannot even acknowledge that Jesus called some gods, that leads me to believe that you have a different idea of what it means to be called theos, and you have also demonstrated this aptly over the last couple of years that I can remember.
So I am not willing to walk into your trap. My lawyer advises me that we need to be clear about what it means to be theos and its different applications and agree and say yes within the true applications of that word.
No traps here, t8. You don't need a lawyer…good grief.
Plain and simple, can and do you worship Jesus as your God who is from God?
Also, Jesus is not the prototype only begotten God/Son. He is the only begotten God/Son. He is the ONLY begotten Son because He is the ONLY Son that came OUT of the Father. No one else elohim, son, theos, or otherwise came OUT of the Father. If they had, then He would not be the Father of an ONLY BEGOTTEN child born out of Him. The 'out of' phrase is what makes the Son unique. All else was called into existence which didn't exist beforehand.
Please answer the bolded question. Is this like your fifth try?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2013,17:45) No traps here, t8. You don't need a lawyer…good grief.
Wrong LU.The fact that you cannot even acknowledge the use of theos and elohim even as any Concordance will tell you, leads me to believe you have a different view of theos as a word. Thus, I cannot trust your question because your view of theos is not complete.
How about my lawyer talks about it with your lawyer over lunch?
I can acknowledge that other heavenly beings are called elohim and theos, I'm not convinced that men are called theos though. I have read both opinions. But to prove that I can acknowledge that other heavenly beings are called elohim, you can go here (starting at the fifth post down and continuing to the end of the page):
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….37;st=0
The bottom line is this…not all elohim are YHVH and YHVH is not the name for all elohim. The elohim that I am going to worship are the ones called YHVH and I believe the Father and the Son are both called YHVH.
Well see that is it right there.
If I worship Christ as theos above me, then you could take that to mean that I am saying he is YHWH, when I am absolutely not saying that.
So perhaps you can see my reservation is warranted.
Just as I do not call angels YHWH, or sons of God YHWH, I can acknowledge that they can be called elohim. Thus it is no different regarding Christ. He is greater than the angels and the sons of God, but he is also not as great as the Father.
So I believe that I have Christ in the right place in my heart. He is between my God and myself. He is the way I get to my God. He is the image of my God. And he is the original son of my God. And I am glad that I will be like him. This is the hope that I have.
t8,
you said:Quote The fact that you cannot even acknowledge the use of theos and elohim even as any Concordance will tell you, leads me to believe you have a different view of theos as a word. Thus, I cannot trust your question because your view of theos is not complete. Now that we have eliminated that excuse with my last post. Please answer this question:
Can and do you worship Jesus as your God who is from God?
I'm not asking you if you worship Jesus as YHVH who is from YHVH.
Remember, you already have acknowledged that Jesus is our God with God and they are one.
Yes I can accept that Jesus is my theos in the correct context. I can also accept others as theos in the correct context. Perhaps my guardian angel.
However, please note that even though angels are called elohim, I never refer to them as gods, although I could. I only refer to them as gods when debating the legitimate use of the word elohim and theos. But in everyday language I do not.
In addition, I do not refer to the sons of God as gods either, even though Jesus said, “yes are gods” and the scripture he quoted says, “You are gods, you are all sons of the Most High God”.
Jesus only quoted this of course because the Jews were confused with his terminolgy and thought he was making himself out be God when he was really saying he was the son of God. Thus, “You are gods, you are all sons of the Most High God”. Then Jesus even confirmed what he was getting at when he finished with “what is it if I say that I am the son of God”.
So in my everyday language, I never refer to Jesus, men/judges, angels, as gods even though I could. The most likely reason is the confusion that it causes among the Trinitarian Christendom world.
And an example of this is of course the dialogue we are having now. You too are confused about the usage of elohim and theos. You even said in a previous post that no one knew the full use of these words. Hence I don't see the point in using it because it confuses a world that thinks that theos and elohim only belong to YHWH.
t8,
you said:Quote Yes I can accept that Jesus is my theos in the correct context. The problem with that answer is that it did not answer this question:
Can and do you worship Jesus as your God who is from God?
Please notice the word 'worship' is not the same as 'accept.' I did not ask you if you 'accept' Jesus as your God who is from God. I asked if you can and do WORSHIP Jesus as your God who is from God.
This is the third time I am asking you this on this page alone. Please answer the question.
kathi, I think you are saying that can I worship Jesus as THE God who is from THE God.
My answer is no. He is the son of God and the messiah. That is the foundation of the Church I belong to. That Church is called the Body of Christ.
I can however say that I beleive that Jesus was theos in nature and he came from the THEOS who is divine in nature.
I rest that on this: “Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and came in the flesh”, (something like that).
So I have clearly answered this for you and eliminated any chance of a misconception which I am sure you were looking for.
Answered. Now please either move on or talk about my answer.
But don't pretend that I have not answered the question. I have answered it clearly and precisely. And this is not the first time either.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,17:01) Can and do you worship Jesus as your God who is from God?
In Greek your verse is saying this:Can and do you worship Jesus as THE God who is from THE God?
The fact that you capitalised the G in God means that you are saying that God is preceded by the definite article.
Thus I cannot worship Jesus as THE THEOS who is from THE Theos. And this is not even logical or legible anyway.
So the answer is no I cannot worship Jesus as The God as you are saying. I worship him as the son of God and as the Lamb of God and as the messiah.
My faith rests on the foundation of the Church. “You are the messiah and the son of God”. “Blessed are you Peter”. “On this rock I will build my Church.
Kathi, try all you like, but you won't catch me out. And why is that? Because I am being true and only telling you that I believe the truth in scripture and sticking by scripture. No matter how hard you try, you will not get me to confess your lies because they depart from scripture. “It is written” as Jesus said. That is how he was able to make the Devil depart from him. He stuck to the truth and refused to be entertained by vain doctrines and smooth words by the Adversity.
So that is a no Kathi. No means no and you should respect that. But you are a pushy person and my guess is you are looking for me to stumble. Well even if I did stumble, it stilll would not mean that I agree with your view. It would only show that I was human.
I believe you are a false teacher who is trying to draw people to yourself and away from Christ and the simplicity in Christ. You want people to believe your doctrine. So far no one has signed up though. Maybe there are no fish in this pond for you?
t8,
you said:Quote But don't pretend that I have not answered the question. I have answered it clearly and precisely. And this is not the first time either. Where was the other time that you have said 'no' regarding 'worshipping Jesus as your God from God?'
This question will not go away. If you think that I am pushy, you haven't seen anything yet. I will not stand for you to deceive others and discredit me or scriptures.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2013,06:53) t8,
you said:Quote But don't pretend that I have not answered the question. I have answered it clearly and precisely. And this is not the first time either. Where was the other time that you have said 'no' regarding 'worshipping Jesus as your God from God?'
This question will not go away. If you think that I am pushy, you haven't seen anything yet. I will not stand for you to deceive others and discredit me or scriptures.
I won't go on a wild goose chase for you. So I will answer it again and hopefully the last time.I don't worship Jesus as YHWH or the Most High God.
I honour/worship him as the son of God and the nature of the son of God according to the Second Century Father's was that he has divine nature thuis qualifying him as theos. Theos from Theos. It is talking about nature.But you identify Jesus as God and the Father as God too.
Most of where you think you have evidence is really your lack of understanding regarding the word Theos and Elohim.
As I said before, Theos and Elohim is applied to God, son, sons, & judges. Even Satan is called theos, but of this age.
So Kathi, here is the answer again, hopefully the last time. Please don't hound me again.
The answer is NO. I do not worship Jesus as God in the sense that you use the word theos.
I worship him as the son and the lamb of God. In both cases he is OF God. Not God as you imply.
I have lost count of the times I have posted to you Kathi about Jesus, angels, son, and sons being referenced as theos and elohim.
How many times have I told you that I worship none of them as God himself, but certainly acknowledge and even honour them as theos in the correct context which is in nature or in a qualitative sense. I would say it numbers in the tens and who knows maybe close to a hundred. Maybe not a hundred, but it feels like it.
If that is not an answer for you, then you are blind or cannot hear.
Just accept that your trap didn't work on me and get over it and move onto the next point. At times like this, I really think having a Crackpot Area is a good idea. Because I don't really want myself and others to fellowship or spend time refuting the same lies time and time again when no new evidence is given and it is just the regurgitated same old same old.
I like to learn and progress with the righteous and true in spirit, not be dragged down and repeat things to people who cannot hear and are stubborn.
It is not as if I bring a new teaching either, while that in itself is not always wrong. No, even Concordances agree with what I am saying. Look up the word 'theos' in a Concordance and look at all the different uses.
Do you worship as God all that Concordances say can be called “theos”?
I bet you don't either. But you cherry pick Jesus as theos and not the other theos. And there is no reason or logic to your decision.I think your conduct here is shameful and wrong. Forcing people to hear your false doctrine when no one wants to hear it. We gave you a chance and a good one at that. We were fair with you. You had plenty of time to make your case and we listened. But we found you to be wrong. Do you understand that?
Quote
The answer is NO. I do not worship Jesus as God in the sense that you use the word theos.So you worship the Son as a god then?
Do you worship anyone else as a god also?No. I worship him as the son of God and the Lamb of God.
Your question is like saying do I worship Jesus as a man then.
Just because I worship/honour Jesus doesn’t mean I worship him because he had divine nature or human nature or wore a white robe, or some other feature or attribute.No, I worship/honour him because he is the son of God and the Lamb of God.
I worship the Father because he is God and as the originator of all, even the son.
Pretty simple Kathi. I don’t worship him as another Almighty God.
Do you worship the Son as the mighty god?
Do you worship the Son as the everlasting father?
Do you worship the Son as the prince of peace?
Do you worship the Son as the Lord of lords?
Do you worship the Son as the Lord of all?
Do you worship the Son as the Word of God?
Do you worship the Son as the Eternal High Priest?
Do you worship the Son as the First and the Last?
Do you worship the Son as the Alpha and Omega?
Do you worship the Son as the one in whose name all things were done by the apostles?
Do you worship the Son as the Root and the Shoot of Jesse?
Do you worship the Son as the one through whom all things were made?
Do you worship the Son as the Lord Savior of all?
Do you worship the Son as the author of eternal life?
Please answer each question with a yes, no or not sure. Thanks.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
