Proclaimer vs Lightenup

[Lightenup]

Quote

My point was that if you believe in God and don't believe his testimony, (like the Jews as you said) then you don't really believe..

That's true and your answer of one theos is not correct. You deny the Son as another theos that you must believe in, know, and serve for eternal salvation.

A half truth is not the full truth. You seem to really have a hard time acknowledging the Son theos as your LORD and Savior.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,07:06)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,21:50) t8, You have a couple of questions that you have not answered. Keep in mind that this is the hot seat and if you avoid questions you get a tile unless you are above your own rules Here are the questions you haven't answered that I am asking you to answer: Quote Now, please clarify if you believe that each mention of the word YHWH in the Gen 19 verse is only referring to one being and not two. Your answer was that it was one YHWH and my question was not how many YHWH's were called YHWH's but how many 'beings' were called YHWH's. Quote Now a question for you, remembering that the Son is a theos…how many theos are on the throne in this verse: Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 1) one 2) two Just a reminder that there are some unanswered questions out there.

Bump…again. These questions are not going away. Please answer.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,06:58)

That's true and your answer of one theos is not correct. You deny the Son as another theos that you must believe in, know, and serve for eternal salvation.

Sorry. But it is not a requirement to believe that Jesus is 'the other theos'.

No. We believe that God made him Lord and Christ and that he is God's son. That he died for our sins and was raised from the dead.

These are essential beliefs about Jesus and the testimony of Jesus. And if we do not believe in the one whom God has sent then we might as well not believe in God either.

Your extra requirement is not just unnecessary but is also taken out of context. He is theos in the sense that angels and men can be theos. Of course much more than us because he is so much better than the angels and among the sons, he is the prototype. Nevertheless, my point is that he is not the Most High and Only True  Theos.

Kathi, if you knew the Father, you would know the son and Vice Versa. Yet you are almost unable to distinguish them apart. To you they are almost exactly the same.

To us, there is one God the Father and one lord the Lord Jesus Christ. For us, Jesus is the son of God and the messiah. We have a different view of Jesus than you do. For a start Jesus is a visible being in bodily form. And the Father is an invisible Spirit that is not wholly contained in anything. Not even the universe can hold him.

You teach things about Jesus that make me wonder if you know him at all. Perhaps all you have is a theology and not an intimate understanding.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,18:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,07:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2012,21:50) t8, You have a couple of questions that you have not answered. Keep in mind that this is the hot seat and if you avoid questions you get a tile unless you are above your own rules Here are the questions you haven't answered that I am asking you to answer: Quote Now, please clarify if you believe that each mention of the word YHWH in the Gen 19 verse is only referring to one being and not two. Your answer was that it was one YHWH and my question was not how many YHWH's were called YHWH's but how many 'beings' were called YHWH's. Quote Now a question for you, remembering that the Son is a theos…how many theos are on the throne in this verse: Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 1) one 2) two Just a reminder that there are some unanswered questions out there.   Bump…again. These questions are not going away. Please answer.

Kathi, I have already answered.

One THEOS on the throne.

[Lightenup]

Thanks for your answer, t8.

So new question…regarding these two following verses, how many persons are seated together on the Father's throne and who are they?
The verses are:

Rev 22:1
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,

Rev 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

[Proclaimer]

LU, Jesus is seated with the Father, on the Father's throne.
We are seated with Christ, on Christ's throne.

We will co-rule with Christ just as Christ co-rules with God.

I have stated this a number of times too.
My view here has always been clear.

[Lightenup]

Quote

He is theos in the sense that angels and men can be theos. Of course much more than us because he is so much better than the angels and among the sons, he is the prototype. Nevertheless, my point is that he is not the Most High and Only True Theos.

I didn't ask how many Most High and only True theos were seated on the Father's throne. I asked how many theos were seated on the Father's throne of which you answered one. But then you say that the Son is theos. So, I will have to decipher your post and sum up that you really believe that two theos are on the throne.

Next question, how can an exact reproduction of something be a prototype?

[Wakeup]

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the *THRONE* a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the *THRONE* and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

ONE AND THE SAME THRONE.

wakeup.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2012,15:54)

Quote He is theos in the sense that angels and men can be theos. Of course much more than us because he is so much better than the angels and among the sons, he is the prototype. Nevertheless, my point is that he is not the Most High and Only True  Theos. I didn't ask how many Most High and only True theos were seated on the Father's throne. I asked how many theos were seated on the Father's throne of which you answered one. But then you say that the Son is theos. So, I will have to decipher your post and sum up that you really believe that two theos are on the throne. Next question, how can an exact reproduction of something be a prototype?

LU, I have answered these questions to. In fact i have been answering them since the start of the forum.

There is one who is THE THEOS in identity.
There are a number of beings referred to as theos in nature or authority.

Likewise, there is one who is the Devil.
There are a number of beings that are devils, who are by nature/character/authority/class like the THE Devil.

It is the way the Greek language works.

So now that I have repeated this once again for you, and others, I will show you how your question is to be
answered.

THE FATHERS THRONE
There is one who is THE THEOS and another who is THE LAMB who can be referred to as theos, but not THE MOST HIGH THEOS.

JESUS THRONE
There is one who is THE JESUS/YESHUA/LAMB and there are many others made up from the redeemed. All could legitimately be referred to as theos in the correct context, but none of them are THE THEOS.

I am not sure if Satan has a throne, but if he did, then he would be the DEVIL who sits on that throne and he might have devils under his command that he rules with. Only one would be THE DEVIL, while the other would be devils.

I am not making this up. It is how the language works and it is easy to verify. I have verified this myself with much reading on this sentence construction, and I have a friend who is a fluent Greek speaker and concurs with this too. He is aware of differences in Greek today and Koine Greek.

So Kathi. Please read what I am saying and go and verify it as this is how Greek works. And now you will know my answer to these questions you ask in advance.

There is one who is THE THEOS on the throne. There is another who is THE LAMB, who is Jesus Christ and in certain contexts he can be called theos, but never THE THEOS/MOST HIGH THEOS/etc.

You attempts to trap me are not working because I am not being deceptive. I am telling the truth and I am being honest in my answers. You can't trap me as long as I am being true. And if you ever did show me something legitimate, then I would gladly accept it because it would be good for me.

[Wakeup]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 06 2012,19:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 06 2012,15:54) Quote He is theos in the sense that angels and men can be theos. Of course much more than us because he is so much better than the angels and among the sons, he is the prototype. Nevertheless, my point is that he is not the Most High and Only True  Theos. I didn't ask how many Most High and only True theos were seated on the Father's throne. I asked how many theos were seated on the Father's throne of which you answered one. But then you say that the Son is theos. So, I will have to decipher your post and sum up that you really believe that two theos are on the throne. Next question, how can an exact reproduction of something be a prototype? LU, I have answered these questions to. In fact i have been answering them since the start of the forum. There is one who is THE THEOS in identity. There are a number of beings referred to as theos in nature or authority. Likewise, there is one who is the Devil. There are a number of beings that are devils, who are by nature/character/authority/class like the THE Devil. It is the way the Greek language works. So now that I have repeated this once again for you, and others, I will show you how your question is to be answered. THE FATHERS THRONE There is one who is THE THEOS and another who is THE LAMB who can be referred to as theos, but not THE MOST HIGH THEOS. JESUS THRONE There is one who is THE JESUS/YESHUA/LAMB and there are many others made up from the redeemed. All could legitimately be referred to as theos in the correct context, but none of them are THE THEOS. I am not sure if Satan has a throne, but if he did, then he would be the DEVIL who sits on that throne and he might have devils under his command that he rules with. Only one would be THE DEVIL, while the other would be devils. I am not making this up. It is how the language works and it is easy to verify. I have verified this myself with much reading on this sentence construction, and I have a friend who is a fluent Greek speaker and concurs with this too. He is aware of differences in Greek today and Koine Greek. So Kathi. Please read what I am saying and go and verify it as this is how Greek works. And now you will know my answer to these questions you ask in advance. There is one who is THE THEOS on the throne. There is another who is THE LAMB, who is Jesus Christ and in certain contexts he can be called theos, but never THE THEOS/MOST HIGH THEOS/etc. You attempts to trap me are not working because I am not being deceptive. I am telling the truth and I am being honest in my answers. You can't trap me as long as I am being true. And if you ever did show me something legitimate, then I would gladly accept it because it would be good for me.

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's *SEAT* is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[Lightenup]

Hi Wakeup,
This thread is a private conversation between t8 and myself. There are a number of other threads that you can comment in that are open to everyone. Thanks for respecting that.

[Lightenup]

So t8,
You admit that there are two that are called theos who share the throne of the Father…

Now answer the next question which I will ask for the second time:

How can an exact reproduction of something be a prototype?

[Proclaimer]

Well let's see LU.

Bearing in mind that scripture calls men/judges, angels, theos”, then you could answer this question yourself. If we take both thrones, those that are seated are the Father, Son, and Sons. Therefore all are theos if we use that word in the scriptural sense that it is applied in scripture.

But if your question is how many (THE THEOS) are seated, it is one. The Father.

So depends on your question. Are you talking qualitatively or in identity, as in WHO THE THEOS is.

There is enough information here to be able to answer the question you are asking.

I am not sure if you are asking how many THE THEOS there are or how many are there that can be called 'theos'.

In case Greek is confusing for you. I once again remind you of THE DEVIL vs devils and how these similar words refer to different beings.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,14:27)

How can an exact reproduction of something be a prototype?

The first reproduction is a prototype and all other reproductions are modeled after the prototype.

I hope this clears this up for you.

[Lightenup]

t8,
The first of a kind is the prototype. The next would be a reproduction, not a prototype.

Definition of PROTOTYPE
1
: an original model on which something is patterned : archetype
2
: an individual that exhibits the essential features of a later type
3
: a standard or typical example
4
: a first full-scale and usually functional form of a new type or design of a construction (as an airplane)

re·pro·duc·tion
noun \ˌrē-prə-ˈdək-shən\
1
: the act or process of reproducing; specifically : the process by which plants and animals give rise to offspring and which fundamentally consists of the segregation of a portion of the parental body by a sexual or an asexual process and its subsequent growth and differentiation into a new individual

A person cannot be the original of a type and the reproduction of that type before the ages, t8. You may be thinking of Jesus in the incarnated sense when He was begotten from the dead and thus the first of many brethren.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 06 2012,20:51)

Well let's see LU. Bearing in mind that scripture calls men/judges, angels, theos”, then you could answer this question yourself. If we take both thrones, those that are seated are the Father, Son, and Sons. Therefore all are theos if we use that word in the scriptural sense that it is applied in scripture. But if your question is how many (THE THEOS) are seated, it is one. The Father. So depends on your question. Are you talking qualitatively or in identity, as in WHO THE THEOS is. There is enough information here to be able to answer the question you are asking. I am not sure if you are asking how many THE THEOS there are or how many are there that can be called 'theos'. In case Greek is confusing for you. I once again remind you of THE DEVIL vs devils and how these similar words refer to different beings.

Jesus is called 'the theos of me' by Thomas.

There are two called 'the theos' on the Father's throne.

Btw, where are men called 'theos?'

There are many referred to as elohim but not all elohim are the two powers of the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.

There are many gods and lords in heaven and on earth but for us there are only two powers…one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,19:37)

Definition of PROTOTYPE 1 : an original model on which something is patterned : archetype

Exactly. The first. The original. All the others are based on it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,19:53)

Btw, where are men called 'theos?'

And you have been here how long.
You must not read what we post.
Reference to this has been made probably hundreds of times so far.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,19:53)

Jesus is called 'the theos of me' by Thomas.

Either way, this doesn't prove your biune unity.

There is a double definite article. This is unnecessary if it was talking about one, Jesus. My LORD and my GOD would be better said My Lord and God. So the double definite article opens up the very real possibility that Thomas was indeed addressing Jesus and then God. And why not. After all, it is all about giving God the glory through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

See that. My Lord and my God.

If the double definite article is still referring to Jesus, even in that instance, I can equally show where judges and angels are also legitimately called theos and elohim.

Thus Thomas words are not enough for you to form this doctrine of yours. Especially to the detriment of hundreds of scriptures that reference God as exclusively the Father.

Face it LU. You have failed to convince us. We need proof before we accept your doctrine. None has been forthcoming. You had your chance to prove it to us and you failed, and not for the want of trying either.

Admit that you are unable to get us to believe your view due to no solid evidence and move on.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 07 2012,02:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 07 2012,19:37) Definition of PROTOTYPE 1 : an original model on which something is patterned : archetype Exactly. The first. The original. All the others are based on it.

“All others” hmmm. There is only one begotten God, t8.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Also, Men aren't theos.

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