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Quote Hi W,
Are you being clever with words for any useful reason? Why do you not grasp that the Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God so the terms are for practical reasons interchangeable?1Peter tells us the prophets were inspired by the Spirit of Christ as does 1Cor 10 tell us that Spirit was the rock, and yet that is speaking of the Holy Spirit.
If we are filled with the Holy Spirit of God we are united with Christ in that Spirit. The Holy Spirit connects us with both the Father and the Son in that Spirit. Thus THEY come to us. That is eternal unity.
Nick
Not trying to be clever at all. But you didnt answer the question!
You Say “the Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God”
First of all show me where this statement is in the scriptures,.
Now the bible says in Romans II Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Based on these scriptures, did God or Jesus send himself?
I think we have a dilema here if we have an Arian theology.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,18:59) Hi Oxy,
You are teaching a new concept of God that is foreign to scripture-trinity. Strange new teachings are to be abhored.Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.
What is it I am teaching that is so strange?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2006,08:12) Hi 94,
You say
“Hi sscott:The concept of God covceiving His Son was with Him in beginning and the Spirit that He would form in His Son through obedience to his Word was with him in the beginning, but as 1 Peter 1:20 states: “Who was verily foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you””
God begat a Son.
Ps 2
“7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. “But God did not form a Spirit in His Son but poured his own Spirit into His Son. The Son was anointed with the eternal Spirit of the eternal God.
Acts `10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Hi Nick:“Though he were a Son, HE YET LEARNED HE OBEDIENCE BY THE THINGS WHICH HE SUFFERED; AND BEING MADE PERFECT, he became the author author of eternal salvation unto all who obey him”. (Hebrews 5:8-9)
Jesus was born an infant under the Law of Moses. (Galatians 4:4) He was raised by Joseph and Mary who were servants of God under the Law of Moses.
Just like any of us our personality is formed by what we learn to obey. Luke 2:40-52 gives us a glimpse of his personality at the age of 12.
You say that “But God did not for a Spirit in His Son, but poured his own Spirit into His Son”. This just indicates that God is the Father of Jesus Spirit. Jesus not only taught humanity that which God have him to teach but he obeyed what he taught even unto death on the cross. His spirit or personality was formed as he learned to obey his Father.
God's person is his character. “God is love…” (1 John 4:16) And Jesus is the express image of his person. (Hebrews 1:3) He demonstrated that love by giving his life for us. (1 John 3:16)
“He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son”. (2 John v9)[/B]
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,04:37) Quote Hi W,
Are you being clever with words for any useful reason? Why do you not grasp that the Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God so the terms are for practical reasons interchangeable?1Peter tells us the prophets were inspired by the Spirit of Christ as does 1Cor 10 tell us that Spirit was the rock, and yet that is speaking of the Holy Spirit.
If we are filled with the Holy Spirit of God we are united with Christ in that Spirit. The Holy Spirit connects us with both the Father and the Son in that Spirit. Thus THEY come to us. That is eternal unity.
Nick
Not trying to be clever at all. But you didnt answer the question!
You Say “the Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God”
First of all show me where this statement is in the scriptures,.
Now the bible says in Romans II Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Based on these scriptures, did God or Jesus send himself?
I think we have a dilema here if we have an Arian theology.
Hi W,
We know the Spirit is one.1 Corinthians 6:17
But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.1 Corinthians 12:7
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.1 Corinthians 12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,1 Corinthians 12:11
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;We know the Spirit, the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit and Romans 8 shows also in Christ it is also the Spirit of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The Spirit of God unites Christ to God and those in Christ also to God in that ONE SPIRIT.
We are nor Arian.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,04:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,18:59) Hi Oxy,
You are teaching a new concept of God that is foreign to scripture-trinity. Strange new teachings are to be abhored.Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.
What is it I am teaching that is so strange?
trinityQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,04:37) Quote Hi W,
Are you being clever with words for any useful reason? Why do you not grasp that the Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God so the terms are for practical reasons interchangeable?1Peter tells us the prophets were inspired by the Spirit of Christ as does 1Cor 10 tell us that Spirit was the rock, and yet that is speaking of the Holy Spirit.
If we are filled with the Holy Spirit of God we are united with Christ in that Spirit. The Holy Spirit connects us with both the Father and the Son in that Spirit. Thus THEY come to us. That is eternal unity.
Nick
Not trying to be clever at all. But you didnt answer the question!
You Say “the Spirit of Christ is of the Spirit of God”
First of all show me where this statement is in the scriptures,.
Now the bible says in Romans II Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Based on these scriptures, did God or Jesus send himself?
I think we have a dilema here if we have an Arian theology.
Hi W,
Do you think there are three Spirits?Where does scripture say Jesus sent himself?
Only trinity theory enables God to send God and God to be anointed by God with God and we abhor such imaginative folly.
Hi 94
You say
“You say that “But God did not for a Spirit in His Son, but poured his own Spirit into His Son”. This just indicates that God is the Father of Jesus Spirit. Jesus not only taught humanity that which God have him to teach but he obeyed what he taught even unto death on the cross. His spirit or personality was formed as he learned to obey his Father.”The human father of Jesus was God by His Spirit. But conception by God does not fill a person with God's Spirit. God was with him helping him and teaching him from without possibly in the same way the Spirit of God was given to the disciples in Jn 20.22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
God was with him[acts 10.38]
But he was not baptised in and empowered by God's Spirit till the Jordan.
Nick:
You say:
“The human father of Jesus was God by His Spirit. But
conception by God does not fill a person with God's Spirit God was with him helping him and teaching him from without possibly in the same way the Spirit of God was given to the disciples in Jn 20.22″Jesus was born a living person or soul under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is God's word and as Jesus studied and applied what he learned his spirit or personality was being formed. As you say, He did not receive the Holy Ghost until after He was baptized in the Jordan. At that point God confirmed him to be His Son: “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, THOU ART MY BELOVED SON; IN THEE I AM WELL PLEASED”. (Luke 3:22)
And because Jesus had studied the word of God under the Law of Moses, when the Holy Ghost led him into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, He countered the devil's temptations by saying “It is written” and quoting him God's word.
Hebrews 5:8-9 states: “Though he were a Son (under the Law of Moses), yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered; (after he had received the Holy Ghost) and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
As a Son under the Law he was without sin, but sacrificed his life for the benefit of all who will inherit eternal salvation through him. “And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth”. (John 17:19)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,03:31) Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,04:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,18:59) Hi Oxy,
You are teaching a new concept of God that is foreign to scripture-trinity. Strange new teachings are to be abhored.Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.
What is it I am teaching that is so strange?
trinity
Here we go again Nick. We have done a few laps with this and as I have said to you before, I do not believe the trinity theory that some here seem to adhere to.Once again, this is what I believe.
Almighty God = Father
Word of God/Jesus = Son of God
Holy Spirit = Holy SpiritThe Father is greater than the Son, as the Son confessed John 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.
He also said John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
If the Holy Spirit is the same as the Father, why would the Father send Him? It just doesn't make sense!
The Father has given the Son all authority and given Him a name that is above every name. The Father has also made it unforgiveable to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, so they all sound pretty important.
Together, they make up the Godhead.
Hi 94,
You say
“Jesus was born a living person or soul under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is God's word and as Jesus studied and applied what he learned his spirit or personality was being formed. “The spirit of a man is that life force that returns to God at death that is God's lamp to our life. It was given when the dirt man had the breath of God blown into his nostrils and formed the inner man, the living soul. [Gen 2.7]
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD,Searching all the innermost parts of his being.The Soul aspect of heart and mind is what learns and loves and is our personality within the body /tent but only the Spirit can teach us the difference between the inner and outer man and show us that the renewed inner man is what aspect of us that has a future while the outer man with it's demands and sin nature, the flesh body is cast off being unable to inherit eternal life
Rom 7
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
2Cor 4
15For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of GodEphesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. “
Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Christ becomes in us the new inner man by grace so that “it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me” The heart and the mind of Christ, by the Spirit of Christ, transforms us into the image of the Son.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,07:16) Hi Oxy,
Does it make sense that the Father filled his son with His Spirit?
Same thing.
Same for us
It doesn't really matter whether it makes sense or not Nick. It was God's choice to give the Holy Spirit to Jesus. Who are we to argue?Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 21 2006,07:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,07:16) Hi Oxy,
Does it make sense that the Father filled his son with His Spirit?
Same thing.
Same for us
It doesn't really matter whether it makes sense or not Nick. It was God's choice to give the Holy Spirit to Jesus. Who are we to argue?
Hi Oxy,
That is where you are wrong because God SHARED His own Spirit with Jesus such that they became ONE just as we can becokme ONE with God in Christ by that same Spirit.Hi Oxy,
When God says in Joel 2
” 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
will God pour that Spirit out of a jar or from another person or from His own being? Will God empty Himself of His own Spirit and pour it all out?
When Christ, the head of his body on earth pours out his Holy Spirit among his members on earth will he do so out of a jar or send a being or will he pour from his own being into ours to join us with him in God?
There is ONE Spirit and it is shared and it binds in eternal unity.
That is the plan of God.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 20 2006,08:09) Repeating myself here….. Nick, why would God send the Holy Spirit if He is the Holy Spirit? Obviously the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, just as the Word is the Word of God.
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
Why would God send Himself? That doesn't line up with Scripture.
Romans 8:26-27 raises some questions for those that believe that the Holy Spirit is simply the Father's “active force” or His personal Spirit:Romans 8:26
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes the saints according to the will of God.Intercedes:
G5241
ὑπερεντυγχάνω
huperentugchanō
From G5228 and G1793; to intercede in behalf of: – make intercession for.IF the Holy Spirit is simply the Father's Spirit, then how is it that His own Spirit makes intercession, on our behalf, to Himself? His own Spirit makes an intercessory appeal to Himself?? That's difficult to get your head around, and strikes me as being more than a little ludicrous….especially considering that “God is Spirit”. Passages like this really only make sense when viewed from a trinitarian perspective, I think….
It's also notable that the Spirit is described as having “a mind””
Romans 8:27
27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes the saints according to the will of God.This denotes volition and cognisance (of course there are many other NT passages that show the Spirit has intelligence). The clear description of His intercessory ability (solid proof against the 'active force' theory) denotes a clear distinction between the two personages of the Father and Spirit.
Only a person can be said to have a “mind” and use it to “intercede” for the saints….
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18
You say
“Only a person can be said to have a “mind” and use it to “intercede” for the saints”You derive this thought from your knowledge of human persons and not from scriptural teaching.
The Spirit of God is amazing.
We should not divide God according to our weak understanding.Gen 1
“1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Ps 139 where God is shown working among men by his Spirit.
” 1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.”
And ps 104
” 24O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.25So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
26There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
27These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
28That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
31The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works. “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,07:38) Hi Oxy,
When God says in Joel 2
” 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
will God pour that Spirit out of a jar or from another person or from His own being? Will God empty Himself of His own Spirit and pour it all out?
When Christ, the head of his body on earth pours out his Holy Spirit among his members on earth will he do so out of a jar or send a being or will he pour from his own being into ours to join us with him in God?
There is ONE Spirit and it is shared and it binds in eternal unity.
That is the plan of God.
Nick, it still doesn't make sense to me that God would send His Spirit if He is His Spirit.I mean, I go to work every weekday, but I don't send me to work, I go to work.
The Father sends us the Holy Spirit.
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
In the beginning there were three. God Almighty, The Word who created all things, and Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.
If God moved on the face of the waters, why wouldn't it say God moved on the face of the waters?
Hi Oxy,
You say
“Nick, it still doesn't make sense to me that God would send His Spirit if He is His Spirit.”God is a being who has a spirit.
The Spirit of God is the finger of God.
Do you reach under the couch to search for things you cannot see while you are lying on the couch? Were you on the couch or under it? Is you were searching for the cat and he bit your finger would you have been bitten or just your finger?
If God says He will pour out HIS SPIRIT on all flesh would you ask Him to rephrase it?
The Son was given that Spirit without measure
Jn 3
“34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.”Matt 12
“18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.”Hi,
Here is another view of the growing “child of God”, Jesus Christ, under the discipline of his Father.Is 53
“1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “
Hi Oxy,
You say
“If God moved on the face of the waters, why wouldn't it say God moved on the face of the waters?”What does scripture say
“Gen 1
“1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
So God was in heaven and His Spirit moved on the face of the waters.
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