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Quote Is 1:18, you've asked me this twice before. I'll tell you now what I told you then. “yes,” I can do that. Absolutely. I won't, though.
When we've had this conversation before, it went like this: You said: Show me all 43 scriptures and prove they all refer to Jehovah. I replied by saying: Show me one that doesn't. (Of course, you'll show me the revelation one.)
Is 1:18, since you keep making this same statement, you must have a reason for doing so. If you've come across a scripture that clearly says Jesus is the Almighty, please do share. It's easier for you to find that one scripture than for me to show you all 43, isn't it?
Then, you'll respond as you did before by saying it's up to me to prove my statements.
Where, I'll say:
Quote
yes,” I can do that. Absolutely. I won't, though.David
Is it true that you believe that Jesus is the Mighty God and the Father is the AlMighty God.
Now apparantly you are making it an emphatic analogy of the two.
But did you know David that the word Mighty God is also used for the Father?
Jer 32:18
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
The Hebrew for “Mighty God” is, “gibbowr 'el”.Compare….
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.The Hebrew word for “Mighty God” is, “gibbowr 'el”.
So your argument carries no weight at all!
So Jesus is fully God, one with the Father and the Spirit!
CASE CLOSED.
Followers of Arius, shot down.
Quote Half of them just go along with whatever their church feeds them. You know this, don't you?
Half of them think that God's name is “God.”David
LOL. All you know is 'Watch Tower”!
Quote Did you read any of my post? Question for you, if you could be so kind as to answer it:
What does the word “God” mean?David
You answer a question with a question?
I have nothing to hide. I will answer yours.
God, “Theos” which means;
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
Ill post a previous post like you do!
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” refers to Jesus (v17), the only begotten of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us (v14). This affirms that Jesus is a separate individual from the Father (He was with God), and yet He Himself possesses Deity (He was God). Note that the context affirms both Jesus' Deity and His humanity: God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Some argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” Hence, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. Hence, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,
(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God None say “a god.” Hence they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.).
(2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!
3) Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God.See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.
(4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true GodSee Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.
(5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.
(6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article.
If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.
So John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all (v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does.
[Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell's Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin….ges.php
Rom 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.David, you should give up the NWT it betrays you often!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2007,07:22) Quote Is 1:18, you've asked me this twice before. I'll tell you now what I told you then. “yes,” I can do that. Absolutely. I won't, though.
When we've had this conversation before, it went like this: You said: Show me all 43 scriptures and prove they all refer to Jehovah. I replied by saying: Show me one that doesn't. (Of course, you'll show me the revelation one.)
Is 1:18, since you keep making this same statement, you must have a reason for doing so. If you've come across a scripture that clearly says Jesus is the Almighty, please do share. It's easier for you to find that one scripture than for me to show you all 43, isn't it?
Then, you'll respond as you did before by saying it's up to me to prove my statements.
Where, I'll say:
Quote
yes,” I can do that. Absolutely. I won't, though.David
Is it true that you believe that Jesus is the Mighty God and the Father is the AlMighty God.
Now apparantly you are making it an emphatic analogy of the two.
But did you know David that the word Mighty God is also used for the Father?
Jer 32:18
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
The Hebrew for “Mighty God” is, “gibbowr 'el”.Compare….
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.The Hebrew word for “Mighty God” is, “gibbowr 'el”.
So your argument carries no weight at all!
So Jesus is fully God, one with the Father and the Spirit!
CASE CLOSED.
Followers of Arius, shot down.
Clever.
Quote But did you know David that the word Mighty God is also used for the Father? Yes, obviously I do know that. And your point?
Did you know that Jesus is called “apostle”?
Quote So your argument carries no weight at all!
Which argument? You mean us looking at what the actual word means?Quote So Jesus is fully God, one with the Father and the Spirit! yes, Jesus is called “mighty one” in scripture.
And so are the angels. and so are Israelite judges. They are all mighty ones.
They are not false mighty ones. The angels aren't false gods, are they? No, they really are mighty ones, gods.Yet the Bible makes that statement about the Almighty, Jehovah, being the only true Mighty one. In view of the fact that he alone is described as Almighty, I don't see why you are confused by this.
False gods are false because they are not “mighty ones.” They are statues of wood, or they are stone, they are the work of human hands. Eyes they have, but they can't see, etc. They aren't mighty at all? They are considered gods, because they are worshipped, but they are false gods, because they are not mighty.
The case is different with Jesus and Jehovah. Both can fittingly be called “mighty,” of course. But only Jehovah is referred to as “Almighty.” Compared to everyone else, Jehovah is the only true God, Almighty.
david
Quote God, “Theos” which means; 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
I'm moreso wanting to know what you think the Hebrew term and greek term mean.
Quote yes, Jesus is called “mighty one” in scripture.
And so are the angels. and so are Israelite judges. They are all mighty ones.
They are not false mighty ones. The angels aren't false gods, are they? No, they really are mighty ones, gods.Yet the Bible makes that statement about the Almighty, Jehovah, being the only true Mighty one. In view of the fact that he alone is described as Almighty, I don't see why you are confused by this.
False gods are false because they are not “mighty ones.” They are statues of wood, or they are stone, they are the work of human hands. Eyes they have, but they can't see, etc. They aren't mighty at all? They are considered gods, because they are worshipped, but they are false gods, because they are not mighty.
The case is different with Jesus and Jehovah. Both can fittingly be called “mighty,” of course. But only Jehovah is referred to as “Almighty.” Compared to everyone else, Jehovah is the only true God, Almighty.
No David. He is called “Mighty God”, “gibbowr 'el”.
Why do you ignore the truth before you?
Quote David Ill post a previous post like you do!
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” refers to Jesus (v17), the only begotten of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us (v14). This affirms that Jesus is a separate individual from the Father (He was with God), and yet He Himself possesses Deity (He was God). Note that the context affirms both Jesus' Deity and His humanity: God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Some argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” Hence, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. Hence, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,
(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God None say “a god.” Hence they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.).
(2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!
3) Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God.See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.
(4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true GodSee Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.
(5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.
(6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article.
If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.
So John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all (v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does.
[Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell's Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin….ges.php
Rom 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.Above, it says:
” If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!”Here is what you don't understand: The word “God” is applied to more than Jesus and Jeovah. Are the angels false gods? I assure you, they aren't. They are truly gods. Truly mighty ones. I guess we have millions of gods, that aren't false.
We have to remember what that word means: Mighty one, or strong one.The gods of the nations are false gods. Not just because they aren't Jehovah, but because they simply aren't “mighty ones.” They are “valueless,” as the Bible says, without power of any kind. They aren't gods at all. yet they are considered such. So they are false gods.
Jesus, the angels, Jehovah, they are all mighty ones. The word “god” fits them all. Yet, only one is described as “almighty.” This one stands alone in this respect.
Jehovah is Almighty, and in this sence, the sense that he's so mighty, without limit, he alone is the true God, the true mighty one.david
could you please comment on what I said.
Quote No David. He is called “Mighty God”, “gibbowr 'el”. Why do you ignore the truth before you?
Sorry!
I think we were just having a major misunderstanding. Yes, of course. I know he is called “Mighty God” in scripture. These words fit.
When I kept saying “mighty one,” i was referring to what the Hebrew word for God essentially means.Sorry for this misunderstanding.
Quote The case is different with Jesus and Jehovah. Both can fittingly be called “mighty,” of course. But only Jehovah is referred to as “Almighty.” Compared to everyone else, Jehovah is the only true God, Almighty. Wrong again! David!
NWT
Rev 22:12,13
12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
David you own Bible betrays you again. Who is Alpha and Omega.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Quote Wrong again! David! NWT
Rev 22:12,13
12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.David you own Bible betrays you again. Who is Alpha and Omega.
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. My Bible doesn't betray me. The title Alpha and Omega applies to Jehovah God. Please go see the Alpha and Omega thread.
When you go visit there, note that of the 43 times that we find the word Almighty, the other 42 refer to Jehovah God. In this instance in Revelation, we see that the Almighty is the Alpha and Omega. Is it not reasonable to conclude that the title Almighty, which was used 42 other times to refer to Jehovha, also refers to Jehovah here?
Note also, Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)
So this would contradict the rest of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the alpha and omega of Rev 1:11.Here is what I said about Rev 22 in that thread:
Quote REVELATION 22:13
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–Verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John,
–verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus,
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God.
As I said before:
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””
Of course, the coming judgment will be expressed by Jehovah God through his Son, for the apostle also says: “This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind.” (Rom. 2:5-10,16)At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”And for Rev 1:8, I said:
Quote REVELATION 1:8
Revelation 1:8 states: “The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible) Clearly, the reference here is to the Almighty, the Most High God Jehovah.
While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as “coming with the clouds,” the words of Revelation 1:8 and the surrounding verses show that he could not be “the Alpha and the Omega.” In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.” Jesus Christ even refers to his Father as “my God.” (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12) According to Revelation 1:1, the revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God. Hence, we should expect the words of the Almighty God to be quoted in the account. The first reference to “the Alpha and the Omega” is manifestly an example of this.Please read the actual first chapter of Revelation. We see that it is from God and God gave the message to Jesus who got his messenger to present it in signs to John.
In the first chapter, did you notice that each of these seem to introduce themselves? Please go check. I'll wait.david
David
Quote Please read the actual first chapter of Revelation. We see that it is from God and God gave the message to Jesus who got his messenger to present it in signs to John.
In the first chapter, did you notice that each of these seem to introduce themselves? Please go check. I'll wait.My Bible says that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Rev 1:1
See in chapter one.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Revelation 22:12-13 says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen,
“I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”
It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.” So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.
Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.” Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'
There is no doubt that Jesus (Jehovah) is the first and last
Hi CB,
Now the next challenge I guess is to justify the Spirit of God also being the first and last too so your creaky creation of trinity holds some water.Quote Hi CB,
Now the next challenge I guess is to justify the Spirit of God also being the first and last too so your creaky creation of trinity holds some water.NH
The Spirit is one with the Father and the Son.
Hi W,
Well it would indeed be surprising if God was not one with His Living Spirit and certainly His Spirit unites the two beings as One.Quote When you go visit there, note that of the 43 times that we find the word Almighty, the other 42 refer to Jehovah God. In this instance in Revelation, we see that the Almighty is the Alpha and Omega. Is it not reasonable to conclude that the title Almighty, which was used 42 other times to refer to Jehovha, also refers to Jehovah here? David
Do you believe that “Almighty God” in scripture is exclusive to the Father, and the term Mighty God is exclusive to the Son?
By the way I am not responding to your comments on Alpha and Omega because CB did that for me, I agree with him!
Quote Hi W,
Well it would indeed be surprising if God was not one with His Living Spirit and certainly His Spirit unites the two beings as One.NH
You Got it!!! Amen. Father, Son Holy Spirit, One God united! Look close because that is what you just said!
Hi W,
If you came to us and told us that from now on you were going to be totally united with your finger you would get some bored yawns. Of course you are and that is how God relates to His finger.
But not how he relates to His Son.They have real unity because they are two beings working together as one.
Hi W,
When Christ died his blood poured to earth and his body became lifeless as the life is in the blood.
In the communion meal the body is symbolically reuinited with the blood and Christ is shown to become alive in his body on earth. That is why to not have the Spirit of Christ is death and we cannot produce fruit without the Spirit.
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