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Hi W,
This is from the documents of Vatican 2
” 7. In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had
revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually
in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations.
Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the
supreme God is brought to completion (see 2 Cor. 1:30; 3:15; 4:6),
commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is
the source of all saving truth and moral teaching [1], and to
impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in
former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled
it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was
faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching,
by example, and by observances handed on what they had received
from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He
did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy
Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and
apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit
committed the message of salvation to writing [2].But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within
the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing
over” to them “the authority to teach in their own place” [3].
This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the
Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim
Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received
everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face
to face (see 1 John 3:2).8. And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a
special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an
unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore
the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn
the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned
either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to
fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jud.
3) [4]. Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything
which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith
of the People of God; and hands on to all generations all that she
herself is, all that she believes.This tradition which comes from the Apostles develops in the
Church with the help of the Holy Spirit [5]. For there is a growth
in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been
made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see
Luke 2:19, 51), through a penetrating understanding of the
spiritual realities which they experience, and through the
preaching of those who have received through episcopal succession
the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another,
the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine
truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in
her.The words of the holy Fathers witness to the presence of this
living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life
of the believing and praying Church. Through the same tradition
the Church's full canon of the sacred books is known, and the
sacred writings themselves are more profoundly understood and
unceasingly made active in her; and thus God, who spoke of old,
uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and
the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel
resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto
all truth those who believe and makes the Word of Christ dwell
abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).9. Hence there exists a close connection and communication
between sacred tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them,
flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge
into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is
the Word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the
inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the
Word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the
Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity,
so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in
proclaiming it preserve this Word of God faithfully, explain it,
and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred
Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about
everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred
tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated
with the same sense of loyalty and reverence [6].10. Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit
of the Word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this
deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain
always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common
life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 8:42,
Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the
heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and
faithful a single common effort [7].”You speak of the full counsel of God as not being limited to what is written in scripture too. Do you feel, as the catholics do, also that tradition must also be treated as an equal source of truth to what is written? Is that what you mean by
the full counsel of God?
t8
Here are some examples where I see comparing scriptures with scriptures gives a whole new meaning to the word.
Using the 5 scriptures you used above, lets look at them closer in light of other scriptures.
1.1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….2.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.3.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of
the Father, he hath declared him.
Trinitarian view believes these scriptures in support of the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit.We take the scriptures literally when it says Jesus is in the Fathers Bosom (the front of the body between the Arms), it means Jesus is in the Father, even while here on earth.
How is this? He left the Father, yet the Father was in him and he in the Father.
Answer because he is God one with the Father united in one Spirit.
The Word that was with God and the Word that was God.
And so Jesus says..
Jn 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: **ye believe in God, believe also in me**.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know**ye believe in God, believe also in me**
And so Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?Jesus said…
6 unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.“If ye had **known me**, ye should have **known my Father** also: and from henceforth ye**know him**, and have **seen him**.’
This is not just because the Father was in Jesus but also because Jesus was in the bosom of the Father inseparably one God.
I Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Interesting the word manifest is, phaneroo which means: to make manifest or **visible** or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way.
What is more interesting is that Paul doesn’t use the Title Father [pater] when he so often does in showing the distinction between the Father and the Son, but he uses “Theos”.
Let’s see which one works best in this scripture.
Example 1.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness…[Theos], Father was manifest in the flesh…
[Theos], Father was justified in the Spirit…
[Theos],Father was seen of Angels…
[Theos],Father preached unto the gentiles…
[Theos],Father was believed on in the world…
[Theos],Father was received up into glory.
Example 2.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness…[Theos],Jesus was manifest in the flesh…
[Theos],Jesus was justified in the Spirit…
[Theos],Jesus was seen of Angels…
[Theos],Jesus preached unto the gentiles…
[Theos],Jesus was believed on in the world…
[Theos],Jesus was received up into glory.
So Paul says “And without controversy (by consent of all) great is the mystery of godliness.
Jn 14:
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father [God], and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father [God]; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father [God]?Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one. Meaning more than just one in character.4.1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This obviously is this forums theme scripture.
This one is used to say that even though the Father God has called Jesus God (Pss 45:6, Heb 1:8) that there is only One God, the Father and Jesus who is not God.
Trinitarians see this scripture like this..
I Cor 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God…
The Father, of whom are all things, and we in him,
The one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.5. John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Compare with…
I Jn 5:20 KJV
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.I Jn 5:20 ESV
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal lifeI Jn 5:20 NASB
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.Summary. i realize that I am not gonna change your mind and I am not trying to. This is for those who may come to this forum and be able to get both sides and hopefully make a choice based on the truth and the leading of Gods Spirit.
Blessings
Quote You speak of the full counsel of God as not being limited to what is written in scripture too. Do you feel, as the catholics do, also that tradition must also be treated as an equal source of truth to what is written? Is that what you mean by the full counsel of God?
NH
Please copy and paste where I said this.
Hi w,
You say
“Trinitarian view believes these scriptures in support of the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit.”Sadly scripture does not provide the foundational teaching that you can use scripture to support.
The motion lapses.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 13 2006,23:26) Quote You speak of the full counsel of God as not being limited to what is written in scripture too. Do you feel, as the catholics do, also that tradition must also be treated as an equal source of truth to what is written? Is that what you mean by the full counsel of God?
NH
Please copy and paste where I said this.
Hi w,
So put another way, what does the full counsel of God include apart from scripture? You present us with strange nonscriptural teachings so what is your source?Quote Hi w,
You say
“Trinitarian view believes these scriptures in support of the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit.”Sadly scripture does not provide the foundational teaching that you can use scripture to support.
The motion lapses.Thats your opinion NH. Your Dualtarian view.
Quote Hi w,
So put another way, what does the full counsel of God include apart from scripture? You present us with strange nonscriptural teachings so what is your source?The scriptures that you deny NH.:p
Hi w,
trinity is not found in scripture as you have admitted but you still teach it as equivalent to the validity of scripture. Why?Quote Hi w,
trinity is not found in scripture as you have admitted but you still teach it as equivalent to the validity of scripture. Why?NH
The trinitarian view does appear in scripture, But you have closed you eyes. All you know how to do is repeat the same thing. You cant take any of the things I say and give me scriptural evidence against it. You make simple basic slurs Like “Trinity is Unscriptural”. At least try to exaplain why you think it is wrong using your own words rather than just copying a a few scriptures that you twist for your on profit.
Hi W,
If scripture does not teach something
but you do
that makes you greater than scripture
and the Holy Spirit who wrote it thorough men does it not?Quote Hi W,
If scripture does not teach something
but you do
that makes you greater than scripture
and the Holy Spirit who wrote it thorough men does it not?NH
Is there a scripture for what you just said? If not then you are teaching something thats not in scripture.
Can you see the foolishness of your argument?
Hi w,
2Peter 1
” 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
2Sam 23
” 2″The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.”Lk 1.70
” 70As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old–“Acts 3
” 18″But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.”Lk 4
” 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
Jn 10
“John 10:35
“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),”Should we not respect and rely on scripture for truth as Jesus did if we follow him?
Quote Hi w,
2Peter 1
” 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
2Sam 23
” 2″The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.”Lk 1.70
” 70As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old–“Acts 3
” 18″But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.”Lk 4
” 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
Jn 10
“John 10:35
“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),”Should we not respect and rely on scripture for truth as Jesus did if we follow him?
NH
You should read scripture with an open mind and heart and let it teach you.
Dualtarianism is not taught in scripture but comes from the speculative derivations of men.Hi w,
We are at best poor servants and unworthy of our Master.
We do not say our words are greater than his because we are not greater than our master.Jn 13
“John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him”Luke 22:27
“For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.Luke 1:2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.Quote Hi w,
We are at best poor servants and unworthy of our Master.
We do not say our words are greater than his because we are not greater than our master.Jn 13
“John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him”Luke 22:27
“For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.Luke 1:2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.NH
Which master are you talking about?
The Father or the Son?
You are only supposed to have one master.
God is One! Father,Son and Holy Ghost!
Hi W,
Do you not understand the godly order of Authority?1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.Quote Hi W,
Do you not understand the godly order of Authority?1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.NH
I sure do. Its found in the Godhead. Father, Son And Holy Ghost.
Hi w,
Is your trinity not the latest version-3 equal persons?
Or do you believe in the economical and ?ontological versions men have evolved to?
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