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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,00:41) Quote Hi W,
look at the first part of Ps 2
“1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”
So the son is anointed by God and fiiled with God's Spirit comes to rule on earth. At the end of the 1000 yr reign the nations arise against the Son and of course against God in Whose stead he rules. God in heaven laughs at their folly.
NH
How can they take council against a God they cannot see?
Of course they are fighting against the Alpha and Omega the Almighty.
Hi W,
Ask them because they say it.Ps 2
” 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD,
and against his anointed, saying,3Let us break
their
bands asunder, and cast away
their
cords from us. “They know there are TWO
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2006,04:27) Hi 94,
You say
“All of mankind (God's creation) after Adam were born of the sperm of man, but Jesus was not born of the sperm of man but is the First of God's creation to born of God. He was a man, but his body was God's own flesh and blood. “
He was conceived of Mary.
He is indeed Son of Man.
Hi Nick:Yes, he was conceived in the womb of Mary and so he was a man born of God's creation which I stated that he was, but he was not born of the sperm of man but of the Spirit of God, and therefore, his body was God's own flesh and blood, and this would answer the question that WJ posed about Acts 20:28 which states: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood”.
WorshippingJesus,Dec. wrote:Quote Jesus said…
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY.'
Sorry WJ:There is only one ALMIGHTY, and so Jesus did not say this but it was God speaking in this scripture. As I have already stated, if Jesus said he was God, he would be contradicting what God said about him, and that is that he is THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD”.
Their is no need for futher discussion on who Jesus is. I believe what God has said.
I'll answer the rest of your questions, but on this topic the discussion is closed as far as I am concerned.
True 942767.
We are required to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. Why do we need to add anything in addition, especially a doctrine that was added later on and caused not only controversy but was enforced by the Roman Beast with the sword.
Sscott.
Re. your 5 questions.Q1. Your comments. God is a Trinity..without one member of the Trinity you do not have God.
There are a number of models of the “trinity” being used in Christianity today and your question I assume deals with the Catholic trinity.
In a nutshell the Catholics teach that originally there was God the Father and that He copulated with Himself to produce God the Son, and then out of them both came the Holy Spirit. A three in one, one in three blend. This is unbiblical rubbish borrowed from paganism. No wonder it does not provide answers to your questions.
The word trinity is not found in scripture and I prefer not to use it. In the old testament we have the word “Elohiym” meaning God in the plurality or Gods. The new testament uses words like Godhead and Deity. (Theos Theios, Theiotes,)
The Bible Godhead consist of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Each is a separate divine Person and each the Eternal God. The new testament Greek word for God “Theos” sometime refers individually to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: and at other times refers to the Godhead. We must read scripture in its context to know Who it refers to.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: /I]
Your question
So when Jesus cries out “My God My God why have you forsaken me”….how is it possible that God forsook God?
With the Catholic “trinity” it does not make sense, but with the Bible Godhead then it makes perfect sense. At the cross God withdrew His presence from Christ because of our sins.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This was the first time in eternity that Christ was separated from God. This started in Gethsemane; hence His suffering.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
It was our sins placed on the spotless Lamb of God that separated Christ from God.
Q2. Your comments
If Jesus was 100% God and 100% man how could He sin? God cannot be tempted to sin. Jesus had to have the possibility of sinning or else he could not be a faithful High Priest able to sympathize with our weakness.
There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. With respect to Matt Slick I’d rather follow what the Bible teaches.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Q.3 Your comments
There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I. I always thought this was in reference to Jesus being a Man on earth. But you also have accounts of Jesus calling the Father His God after the resurection. He calls the Father His God when speaking to Mary and again in Revelations. (Rev 3:12) Why is Jesus still calling the Father His God? There is also a passage that says the head of Jesus is God. (1 Cor 11:3)
In many of these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Q.4 Your comments
In John 5:26 Jesus says:
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah. Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn to work together and to serve each other.
Q.5 Your comments
John 6:58 says:
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.This also is in the context of Christ’s mission as Messiah. I have already covered this.
sscott. The catholic trinity concept is clearly wrong, however most of the other Christian churches are teaching the Bible Godhead which is truth. However it is unfortunate that they use the word “trinity” which sometimes confuses theirs with the Catholic teaching.
Beware of the false teachers here on this forum; they will lead you astray.
Christ describes them well.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:They are wilfully blind.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
sscott. I hope that I have addressed all of your concerns.
Hi CB,
Please do not place multiple posts that are exactly the same in several threads. That is regarded as spamming and can cause one to be banned from the site.Hi CB,
You quote
“2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables”Fables are of human origin. Such is trinity. The truth is to be found written so we must abide in the Word of God.
Quote True 942767. We are required to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. Why do we need to add anything in addition, especially a doctrine that was added later on and caused not only controversy but was enforced by the Roman Beast with the sword.
————–
Well t8
Since you jumped in here then maybe you could shed a little light on the subject.
If Jesus is The Alpha and Omega in Rev 1:11…
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.Then who is speaking in vs 8?…
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Hi W,
One could ASSUME it was Jesus.
We do not work by presumption.There is insufficient evidence as the person speaking was not seen when doing so and our invisible God has spoken on many times in scripture.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 08 2006,07:29) Quote There is not need to look any further to try to determine who Jesus is. God has revealed this plainly to us by this scripture. He is not GOD THE SON, but HE IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. End of this discussion, lest we make God and Jesus liars. Because Jesus did not say that He was God otherwise He would be condradicting who God said that he was. 94
Sorry! One other thing. you say Jesus didnt say he was God.
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, **the Almighty**.Lest you say like the rest of the false prophets that this was the Father speaking..
Read further..
Rev 1:10-18
10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, **I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last**: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; **I am the first and the last**:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Jesus is the Alpha and Omega!
Check this one out…
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.Who purchased it with his own Blood? I dont see Jesus name here. But I do see the church of God and the Holy Ghost.
Could you also pray about these and if you see something I dont, plz let me know!
Hi WJ:As I have already stated about Rev. verse 1:8, there is only one “Almighty” and that is God. And when you include the word God in this verse, it identifies the speaker as God and not Jesus.
The KJV Re. 1:8 states: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And Rev. 1:11 states: “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, …”
According to the bible study tool JFB commentary on crosswalk.com, the oldest manuscripts include “saith the Lord God” in verse 8 and they omit “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,” in verse 11.
Jesus did not say that he was God otherwise he would be contradicting what God said about him and that is that He is “THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2006,23:00) Hi 94 Thanks again for your reponse!
Have you answered my questions? No. You have raised a few others. Please be patient with me Im trying to understand your view.
1.Do you believe that The Word Jesus had a beginning, and why?
2.Do you believe that only Adam and Eve were created all the rest were born therefore are not created?
3.In light of Luke 11:11-13, Luke 11:18- 20, Matt 12:26-28 was Jesus speaking of the Father God.
4.Is Jesus the Alpha and Omega? If so plz explain Rev 1:8. and Rev 1:11. How do you come to the conclusion that vs. 8 is the Father speaking?
5.What does it mean to you For Jesus to be the Firstborn of creation?
6.Is the Holy Ghost the Father himself, or is he a power or force from God?Blessings
Hi WJ:I believe that I have already answered the questions that you ask whether in direct response to you or perhaps in the thread of the Trinity.
There is not need to keep going over the same material again and again.
It is quite clear that you are not going to convince me that the “Trinity doctrine” is scriptural, and also, that I am not going to convince you that it is not.
As I said before, ultimately, it is not what you or I say, but if God confirms either your teaching or mine with the same kind of miracles that he did in the ministry of our Lord Jesus and the Apostles, it will be God saying that either your teaching or mine is correct and not just us stating that we are right.
I have reason to believe that he will confirm my teaching, but as the old TV commercial stated: “The proof is in the pudding”.
Quote Hi WJ: I believe that I have already answered the questions that you ask whether in direct response to you or perhaps in the thread of the Trinity.
There is not need to keep going over the same material again and again.
It is quite clear that you are not going to convince me that the “Trinity doctrine” is scriptural, and also, that I am not going to convince you that it is not.
As I said before, ultimately, it is not what you or I say, but if God confirms either your teaching or mine with the same kind of miracles that he did in the ministry of our Lord Jesus and the Apostles, it will be God saying that either your teaching or mine is correct and not just us stating that we are right.
I have reason to believe that he will confirm my teaching, but as the old TV commercial stated: “The proof is in the pudding”.
94
Thank you.
I will go back over the threads and address those in answer to my questions.
Blessings:)
Quote
t8 posted Dec 12thWe are required to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God. Why do we need to add anything in addition, especially a doctrine that was added later on and caused not only controversy but was enforced by the Roman Beast with the sword.
Posted: Dec. 12 2006,19:47
Well t8
Since you jumped in here then maybe you could shed a little light on the subject.
If Jesus is The Alpha and Omega in Rev 1:11…
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.Then who is speaking in vs 8?…
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.NH Posted: Dec. 12 2006,19:50
——————————————————————————–
Hi W,
One could ASSUME it was Jesus.
We do not work by presumption.There is insufficient evidence as the person speaking was not seen when doing so and our invisible God has spoken on many times in scripture.
NH thats a very weak answer. There you go again dancing around scripture to fit your doctrine.
Hi W,
I try to dialogue with you but your constant use of inference and logic instead of reliance on scriptural fact makes conversation limited to trying to find some sort of mutual foundation.Quote Hi W,
I try to dialogue with you but your constant use of inference and logic instead of reliance on scriptural fact makes conversation limited to trying to find some sort of mutual foundation.NH
It seems that way because your inference and logic dosnt match mine.
If you say you dont make inference and use logic toward scripture then tell me and I will be sure to barage you with hundreds of words from this forum showing otherwise.
Hi w,
Please just TRY to show ONLY from scripture that what you teach is true.
Lets start with scriptural teaching about the basis of your faith, trinity theory.Quote Hi w,
Please just TRY to show ONLY from scripture that what you teach is true.
Lets start with scriptural teaching about the basis of your faith, trinity theory.NH
We could start with your Dualtarian theory, the new Gospel that was developed because it claims it is not from Arian or Athanasius.
Hi W,
Tangents already?
Come on.It is Jesus who insists that his brothers abide in the Word and not follow tradition.
If we claim him as Master and Lord at least we must listen to him and obey him as surely that is the minimum of how servants are meant to treat their masters?
He never asked to be worshiped so why emphasise what he does not? Is not obedience more vital?
The son is the son OF God.
The true God is the Father.
If the Father is the true God, and Jesus is the son of God, then we understand the truth and there is no confusion or disharmony.1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.If anyone among you try to change these scriptures above with a contradictory creed or teaching, then it is safe to say that you are working for the evil one.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. A man who twists scripture or teaches that which is contradictory to scripture, the same man whether he knows it or not, is trying to destroy the works of Christ and build up that which Christ himself destroyed.
Light overcomes darkness, but what happens when your light is darkness? What happens if salt loses its saltiness?
Quote If anyone among you try to change these scriptures above with a contradictory creed or teaching, then it is safe to say that you are working for the evil one. Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. A man who twists scripture or teaches that which is contradictory to scripture, the same man whether he knows it or not, is trying to destroy the works of Christ and build up that which Christ himself destroyed.
Light overcomes darkness, but what happens when your light is darkness? What happens if salt loses its saltiness?
t8
Twisting or contradicting scripture is not a problem here. Its the turning away the face or the ears to certain scriptures when they do not agree with a few scriptures that one has chosen as their hobby horse.
An example of this is when I brought up Jesus calling the Holy Spirit He,who,whom, etc., NH response was “Inference is a poor witness to truth'.
So because Jesus words didnt agree with his narrow view of the Holy Spirit then he could have said to Jesus, “Lord this is not what you meant to say, the Holy Spirit is not a Person, you mean to say the Power or the force”.
Another example of this is when I brought up Alpha and Omega in Rev. 1:8 and 1:11. who was it?
His response was…
“One could ASSUME it was Jesus. We do not work by presumption.
There is insufficient evidence as the person speaking was not seen when doing so and our invisible God has spoken on many times in scripture.”It is clear that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. Hence the turning of the ears to scripture so he could hold on to his narrow view of Jesus as just the Son of God, when scripture from Genesis to revelation shows he is more than just the Son.
If we take out a few scriptures because they dont fit our theology, then our theology is flawed and does not declare the whole council of God.
All of the scriptures you used above amazingly you and others use against a trinitarian view as if we dont believe them.
We believe everyone of them, Jesus is the Son of God, But scriptures show plainly that Jesus is more than that, The Father himself says so.
So again its the turning away the face and the ears from the whole coucil of God, that is the problem here.The sad thing is you make a declaration about those “proof text', pet peve scriptures and say that if any one dosnt agree with your interpretation of them then they are working for the evil one.
Tell me t8, are you a Prophet or an Apostle? What authority do you have to declare that to disagree with your boxed in scriptures is of the evil one.
Seems to me you critised the Roman Catholics for doing the same thing with the Nicene Creed.
Have you ever considered that the Term “Son Of God” is only used in the biblie refering to Jesus about 43 times and some of those were repeats in the Gospels.
And yet we see “kurios” which is interpreted in AV – Lord 667 times, lord 54, master 11, sir 6, Sir 6, misc 4; For a total of 748 times mostly to Jesus.
Kurios means:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lorda) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
This dosnt take into account all the hudreds maybe thousands of scriptures that speak of Jesus as Teacher or Great Shephard, or King of Kings, or Mediator, or bread of life, or, or , or , or,.
I prefer not to hide behind a few pet scriptures.
Ps 40:7
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which **testify of me**.Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall **testify of me**:Testify not of the Father but of Jesus because the Father Gave us Jesus.
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