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It seems like Jesus is only called the Son in relation to Him being born of Mary and durring his time on earth. Is there anytime He is called the Son before his birth with Mary?
Hi sscott,
Try 1Jn 4
” 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.”
The Son
was sent
into the world
as also shown with the parable of the vineyard owner.ps
Look also at the sequencing in heb 1
“4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. “
Hi,sscott,
The firstbegotten Son was the means of creation used by God and other sons were created through him shown in jb 1.2 gen 6 and Jb 38 before the creation of earth.
Jb 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2006,22:12) Hi sscott,
Try 1Jn 4
” 8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.”
The Son
was sent
into the world
as also shown with the parable of the vineyard owner.
His Son was the Son at conception. That passage is simply saying that the Father sent the Word as His Son. There is no record as far as I am aware of the Word of God being referred to as the Son of God prior to His being sent to Earth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2006,22:35) Hi,sscott,
The firstbegotten Son was the means of creation used by God and other sons were created through him shown in jb 1.2 gen 6 and Jb 38 before the creation of earth.
Jb 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
The sons of God are in no way like the Son of God. They were created as “sons” whereas Jesus was the firstborn.He was not just the first born of Mary, but also the first born of God.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 16 2006,06:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2006,22:35) Hi,sscott,
The firstbegotten Son was the means of creation used by God and other sons were created through him shown in jb 1.2 gen 6 and Jb 38 before the creation of earth.
Jb 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
The sons of God are in no way like the Son of God. They were created as “sons” whereas Jesus was the firstborn.He was not just the first born of Mary, but also the first born of God.
Hi OXY,
I agree Jesus, the Word, the firstborn is greater than the other created sons who are likely angelic, and that they were created through him. But Scripture doesn't say much more.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,08:46) Hi OXY,
I agree Jesus, the Word, the firstborn is greater than the other created sons who are likely angelic, and that they were created through him. But Scripture doesn't say much more.
Hi Nick, that's true that there is not a lot mentioned in Scripture on the subject. But my understanding of Scripture says that the Word was in the beginning with God and was God. The Word was not created or born, but was God and with God. It seems to me that the Word was and is a part of God, inseperable except that He was sent to earth to become the Son of God.It is also my belief that God Almighty would have answered His Son's prayer to be restored to His former glory as it was before.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
We see the evidence of the Word of God in glory in Revelations.
Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.Hi Oxy,
WITH GOD strongly suggests separation and the Son was already a son when he was sent into the world. He was a being with life in himself and was beloved of God.
1Jn 4
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
1Jn 1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”
The Word did not first become a son at birth but was made or partook of flesh becoming physically the Son of God through Mary and the Spirit.
Hebrews 2:14
“Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,”Jn 1
“14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “Jn 5
” 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; “Hi Oxy,
Two beings are able to know and love one another and this relationship between the Father and Son goes back to before the foundation of the world.
Jn 17
“24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
Hi Oxy,
Rom 8.3
” 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,”Gal 4.4
” 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, “He was a son when he was sent into the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,21:32) Hi Oxy,
Rom 8.3
” 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,”Gal 4.4
” 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, “He was a son when he was sent into the world.
I understand the Scriptures you posted Nick, but the Scriptures were written after the event, thereby recognising that the One sent was the Son.If you have a look at the Old Testament I don't think you will see prophecy that God will send His Son, that's because at that stage there was no Son.
Isn't Prov 30 asking a retorical question?
1The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
2Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
3I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Proverbs has to be asking if there is a man who has done this and the answer would be “no”.
It says “what is his name”? If this was talking about the Father he would have know His name…YHWH
.Hi Nick and Oxy:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
1 Peter 1:20 states of Jesus: “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”.
Galations 4:4 states: “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman under the Law”.
John 17:5 states: “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.
John 17:24 states: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”.
God has created this world and all that exists having seen everything from the beginning to the end and beyond. The concept of begetting as Son through whom He would redeem His children was with God in the beginning. His plan for instructing him in order to shape his personality was also with Him in the begining.
Genesis 1:26 states: “And God said, let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after our likeness…” Based on John 1:1-3, my understanding is that God was speaking to the WORD OR SPIRIT OF HIS SON.
1 Co. 15:45 states: “And so it is written, the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit”.
The first Adam was a living soul or person, but Adam and Eve were in innocence in the garden before their fall. Their spirit had not been formed. Jesus was born into this world as an infant in innocence but a living soul under the Law of Moses. His spirit had not yet been formed.
Hebrews 5:8-9 states: “Though he were a Son (under the Law of Moses), yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”.
Hebrews 1:1-3 states: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (that is his personality), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”.
Hi 94,
You say
“The first Adam was a living soul or person, but Adam and Eve were in innocence in the garden before their fall. Their spirit had not been formed. Jesus was born into this world as an infant in innocence but a living soul under the Law of Moses. His spirit had not yet been formed.”Every living being has a formed spirit or they are dead.
Jas 2
“26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”Christ was a son of Adam, a son of Man. He was the same as we all are except for sin.
“the last Adam was made a quickening spirit”.
Indeed he was MADE a quickening Spirit by the outpouring of the Spirit of Christ to his body on earth after his ascension to glory.
Hi Nick:
When we are born as infants we have breath of life, but our spirit or personality is formed by what we obey. As Christians, we become like Jesus as we learn to obey his word.
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”. (Genesis 2:7)
John 6:63 states: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE”.
Hi 94,
Is this written?
Surely sin conceives in us as James said.Jas 1
” 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
We cannot become like to the Son of God except by rebirth from above and feeding on and obeying the Word.Quote Isn't Prov 30 asking a retorical question? 1The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
2Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
3I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Proverbs has to be asking if there is a man who has done this and the answer would be “no”.
It says “what is his name”? If this was talking about the Father he would have know His name…YHWH
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