Some standing here

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Do you have the witnesses in heaven of your claim to be a worshiper of God?[1Jn5]

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2009,05:21)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,06:04) Hi WJ, You really Believe that the Spirit is another PERSON? Where is it written that The SPIRIT brings anyone to Christ? Of course no man can come to Jesus except THE FATHER calls him. Are you convincing yourself that the Spirit is actually an outreach of the Father? Hi NH But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13 The Spirit is our “paraklētos” NH, our advocate! You give him way to little credit! “paraklētos”  Strongs g3875 1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, “an advocate“ John 16:13 is only a few things he does for us. He also makes intercession for us! Rom 8:26 For as “many as are led by the Spirit of God“, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:14 WJ

doesn't paraklētos often refer to a person of flesh and blood?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,06:05)

Hi BD, Do you have the witnesses in heaven of your claim to be a worshiper of God?[1Jn5]

Wouldn't God be my witness? Wouldn't His Holy angels bear witness? Wouldn't Jesus bear witness that I worship God Almighty.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2009,17:56)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,01:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2009,17:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 10 2009,18:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,07:42) Hi BD, So now your true agenda surfaces. You say ” Jesus was The Christ and a prophet who was a bit presumptuous when he made this prophecy.” ”  Jesus thought he would return in his own generation” Your attack of the Saviour Jesus Christ begins. You are following the will of your god. Never having dared to try to discredit the words of the prophets you now attack the Son of God. You attack the ANOINTING SPIRIT of  CHRIST JESUS What was that unforgiveable sin again? Luke 12 10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. Mark 3:28-30 (New King James Version)   28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” This proves several things and not just to you Nick but to those who believe in the trinity it should be clear that this scriptures states that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same, nor are they equal as a person can say things regarding Jesus that he would not be forgiven for regarding the Holy Spirit. Hi BD It is the Spirit that reveals the hidden things of God. If men will let the Spirit open their eyes then they will see the reason Jesus made this statement is because it is the Spirit that brings us to him and without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to come to the Father or Jesus. However, the Spirit of God will not always strive with men. Now please listen real close BD for the following scriptures destroys the anti-trinitarian view. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, “the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU“. John 16:7 Here we see Jesus sending the Holy Spirit! Well as an anti-trinitarian that believes the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father, John 16:7 creates a real conundrum, for one would have to ask himself “did Jesus send the Father? Or better than that is Gods personal Spirit subservient to Jesus? Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Can’t be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Can’t be Jesus… He shall glorify me:  for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Did Jesus send the Father? The above scriptures show that the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus! Did Jesus baptize men in the Holy Spirit (Father) and fire? You are right Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same person, and the Father and the Holy Spirit are not the same person. If the Holy Spirit is the Father, then according to the scriptures above the Father is subject to the Son. Obviously since the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit cannot be greater than Jesus! Remember Jesus is the “Baptizer” of the Holy Spirit! John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire“. His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Luke 3:16, 17 And if the Holy Spirit is not personal then how can he “counsel”, “guide”, “speak”, “hear”, “Shew”, “take”, and many other verbs ascribed to the Holy Spirit throughout the scriptures. I only mention the few that are in the verses above. Go ahead check them out in the Greek and what you will see is that these verbs are almost invariably ascribed to a sentient being! As usual BD the method of taking a proof text to disprove the Trintarian view has failed again because as usual it does not take in consideration the scriptures as a whole! WJ The Holy Spirit was there before Jesus was born read the first verses of luke. Howver the Holy Spirit could in fact some cases be an angel as they are Holy Spirits sent by God. Hi BD Where is the scripture that calls the “Spirit of God” or the “Holy Spirit” an angel? WJ

Angels are Spirits, right?
God's angels are Holy, right?

Wouldn't that make the angels Holy Spirits?

Isaiah 63:9-11 (New King James Version)

9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old.
10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:

“ Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,

My point is there is God's Holy Spirit and there are Holy Spirits which are angels (which are messengers)

[KangarooJack]

Nick said:

Quote

You really Believe that the Spirit is another PERSON?

Paul said,

Quote

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30)

The Greek word for “grieve” means “to cause sorrow.” Tell us how a non-person can experience sorrow Nick. Please enlighten us.

thinker

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,06:28)

Nick said: Quote You really Believe that the Spirit is another PERSON? Paul said, Quote Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30) The Greek word for “grieve” means “to cause sorrow.” Tell us how a non-person can experience sorrow Nick. Please enlighten us. thinker

wrong again!

Genesis 6

3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
The Spirit is as the finger of God[lk11/mt12]
Do you not feel pain when you hit your finger with a the hammer?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Taste and see that the lord is good.
trying to understand the holy Spirit without being so blessed is uselessness.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,07:14)

Hi BD, Taste and see that the lord is good. trying to understand the holy Spirit without being so blessed is uselessness.

Have you ever experienced the Holy Spirit, Nick?

I have and I will tell you it is an experience that is beyond description.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Experiences are proven by their fruit.
Then why is it that you have turned against God and now attack the credibility of His inspired servants?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,07:29)

Hi BD, Experiences are proven by their fruit. Then why is it that you have turned against God and now attack the credibility of His inspired servants?

The fact is I have not turned against God in any way but since you bring it up didn't the Apostles ask Paul the same thing you just asked me?

It seems that God tells people what their mission is despite what it looks like to others.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Indeed many did turn away from Jesus out of shallowness and ignorance.
But the walk is of faith in God and in His son[jn14].

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,07:59)

Hi BD, Indeed many did turn away from Jesus out of shallowness and ignorance. But the walk is of faith in God and in His son[jn14].

Faith in God and all believers including his son.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Have you read Jn 14.1?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2009,06:53)

Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,06:28) Nick said: Quote You really Believe that the Spirit is another PERSON? Paul said, Quote Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30) The Greek word for “grieve” means “to cause sorrow.” Tell us how a non-person can experience sorrow Nick. Please enlighten us. thinker wrong again! Genesis 6 3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Bd,
I don't follow you.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2009,07:09)

Hi TT, The Spirit is as the finger of God[lk11/mt12] Do you not feel pain when you hit your finger with a the hammer?

Nick,
You totally iognored my point about the Spirit experiencing sorrow. And the only way a finger can feel pain is if a person resides in the body of which it is a part. Does unhabited flesh feel pain?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Not at all.
The finger of Father God is not EVER separated from Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
God is in heaven as Jesus told us.
But God's own unifying Spirit is in Jesus and his body.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,13:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2009,17:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,01:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2009,16:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 09 2009,22:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2009,14:19) Hi BD, Compare Jn 5.24 He was speaking of those who HAVE PASSED from death to life. John 5:24 (King James Version) 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Nick, did you read that Jesus said some standing here would not taste death? Hebrews 9:26-28 (King James Version) 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: In other words they would have still had to die just like you say Jesus died. You will see something great in this thread because any scripture anyone chooses to use will further prove this truth that I give to you today. This thread was started by The Will of God to teach His children(those who say with their lips that they love Him) Hi BD I have already shown you that Enoch and Elijah did not taste of death. But, you deny the possibility that Jesus words were true and that some that were standing there may have not tasted of a physical death but went with Jesus like Enoch who was not for God took him. Here is a secret for you BD. If a different possibility lies with a scripture then that scripture is ambiguous. Therefore your assumptions about Jesus statements are not unambiguous which means you have proved nothing! Why do you not have any faith in Jesus to be able to do what he says? Is it because he is not your Saviour or your Prophet or that his Father is not your Father? It seems you have more faith in another god and another prophet and another bible! WJ So Enoch and Elijah went to heaven regardless of Jesus? Who went with Jesus and why didn't the Prophecy come true regardless of who went with Jesus? Hi BD You are assuming that the generation that Jesus was speaking of was in his time. But the generation he is speaking of is when all those things are fulfilled, then shall the end come. Again, your view is ambiguous and no proof that Jesus words were not true! WJ Jesus said “This” Generation not “That” generation in which these things happen. Also Jesus says “some standing here” would not taste death before it occured and also keep in mind that the temple was detroyed in His generation. There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about what I am saying it is clear that Jesus did not know and plus he said he did not know just like he didn't know that figs were not on the fig tree nor was there supposed to be figs on an out of season fig tree but he cursed the tree.

Hi BD

If what you say is true then Jesus would be a false prophet..

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” Deut 2:29

And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground. 1 Sam 3:19

In response to the disciples question…

“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?” Luke 21:7

“I tell you the truth, this generation* will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luke 21:33, 34

What generation?

Jesus said…

“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:24

“In Luke 21:24 “They”, is referring to the Jews, and “gentiles”  is referring to the non-Jews. So in the time when the Jews take over the land of Jerusalem, then the times of the gentiles is fulfilled.

This didn't happen until 1948!

Either Jesus is a lair and a false prophet or as he said…

HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY: “BUT MY WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY” Luke 21:34

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,14:15)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2009,17:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 11 2009,01:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 11 2009,17:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 10 2009,18:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2009,07:42) Hi BD, So now your true agenda surfaces. You say ” Jesus was The Christ and a prophet who was a bit presumptuous when he made this prophecy.” ”  Jesus thought he would return in his own generation” Your attack of the Saviour Jesus Christ begins. You are following the will of your god. Never having dared to try to discredit the words of the prophets you now attack the Son of God. You attack the ANOINTING SPIRIT of  CHRIST JESUS What was that unforgiveable sin again? Luke 12 10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. Mark 3:28-30 (New King James Version)   28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” This proves several things and not just to you Nick but to those who believe in the trinity it should be clear that this scriptures states that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same, nor are they equal as a person can say things regarding Jesus that he would not be forgiven for regarding the Holy Spirit. Hi BD It is the Spirit that reveals the hidden things of God. If men will let the Spirit open their eyes then they will see the reason Jesus made this statement is because it is the Spirit that brings us to him and without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to come to the Father or Jesus. However, the Spirit of God will not always strive with men. Now please listen real close BD for the following scriptures destroys the anti-trinitarian view. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, “the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU“. John 16:7 Here we see Jesus sending the Holy Spirit! Well as an anti-trinitarian that believes the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of the Father, John 16:7 creates a real conundrum, for one would have to ask himself “did Jesus send the Father? Or better than that is Gods personal Spirit subservient to Jesus? Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Can’t be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Can’t be Jesus… He shall glorify me:  for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us? Did Jesus send the Father? The above scriptures show that the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus! Did Jesus baptize men in the Holy Spirit (Father) and fire? You are right Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same person, and the Father and the Holy Spirit are not the same person. If the Holy Spirit is the Father, then according to the scriptures above the Father is subject to the Son. Obviously since the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit cannot be greater than Jesus! Remember Jesus is the “Baptizer” of the Holy Spirit! John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire“. His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Luke 3:16, 17 And if the Holy Spirit is not personal then how can he “counsel”, “guide”, “speak”, “hear”, “Shew”, “take”, and many other verbs ascribed to the Holy Spirit throughout the scriptures. I only mention the few that are in the verses above. Go ahead check them out in the Greek and what you will see is that these verbs are almost invariably ascribed to a sentient being! As usual BD the method of taking a proof text to disprove the Trintarian view has failed again because as usual it does not take in consideration the scriptures as a whole! WJ The Holy Spirit was there before Jesus was born read the first verses of luke. Howver the Holy Spirit could in fact some cases be an angel as they are Holy Spirits sent by God. Hi BD Where is the scripture that calls the “Spirit of God” or the “Holy Spirit” an angel? WJ Angels are Spirits, right? God's angels are Holy, right? Wouldn't that make the angels Holy Spirits? Isaiah 63:9-11 (New King James Version) 9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,      And the Angel of His Presence saved them;      In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;      And He bore them and carried them      All the days of old.       10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;      So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,      And He fought against them.       11 Then he remembered the days of old,      Moses and his people, saying:      “ Where is He who brought them up out of the sea      With the shepherd of His flock?      Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, My point is there is God's Holy Spiri t and there are Holy Spirits which are angels (which are messengers)

Hi BD

Just as I thought, no scripture that calls the Holy Spirit or Gods Spirit an angel!

Besides you are ignoring my post. Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit that comes and lives inside of us and Gods angels do not live inside us.

WJ

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