- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Some do not agree that Michael and Jesus …
… are one and the same Person!I thought that I had supplied sufficient proof that Michael and Jesus was one and the same person. Since some do not agree with my reasoning on the matter, allow me to take this subject a step further in an effort to prove my reasoning was correct!
Now, just who was it that had “All Authority over heaven and earth?” Now Jesus himself will tell us, in Matthew 28:18 Jesus tells us that it was he that had that “ALL AUTHORITY.”
Now, who was it that was to judge and wage War? The revelation account at Chapter 19:11 explains just who that was, for it tells us there: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges AND WAGES WAR.” Now, just who was this one that was 'faithful and true? That wages War? The Apostle John at Revelation 1:5 explains just who that was, in these words: … “and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness” … At Revelation 6:1,2 we learn that it is Jesus who was the one waging this war, for he tells us, in part: “I looked, and there before me was a White Horse! It's rider, {the Christ} held a Bow {used for warfare} and he was given a crown, {The Kingship} and he rode out as a conquerer bent on conquest.” Now, if one reads through the entire account of the ride of the four horsemen, they will learn that, that ride harmonizes with the composite sign of the presence of Christ in kingdom power, given at Matthew 24-Mark 13-Luke 21 {Revelation 6:1-8}
Now just who was it that the angels were made subject to, and just how does the Bible describe that subjection? The Apostle Peter at 1 Peter 3:22 shows us, this, in these words: “He is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.” Then, we see at Matthew 24:31 when Jesus begins to gather the chosen ones, he uses those angels to do that gathering work. He does the same thing when he separates the sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-46. Showing their subjection to him! Now, think about this for a moment! If you have someone on your right hand, and, in this case, Jehovah needed the heavens cleaned out, and the Christ was on his right hand, just who would you choose to get that clean-up done? Would it not be, the one on your right hand? You've heard the expression; ” he is his right hand man!” Is this not the one who is sent out to represent his employer? It is exactly the same in this instance! Jesus, being on his Fathers right hand would be the one chosen to first clean out the heavenly realm of all wickedness, and then to fight the War of the great day of God the Almighty. {Revelation 16:16}
Now, what does the account in Revelation have to say about that War, and just who it is, that fights it”
I have already pointed out the scripture at Revelation 6:1-8 that speaks about the ability of Jesus to Wage-War, for, he goes out as a 'conquerer bent on conquest.' With A 'BOW AND A CROWN'!This scripture is a description of the time of this Worlds greatest trouble, and is the fulfillment of Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24: 21,22! This also was the foretold time period of the 'great tribulation.'
So, it is Jesus who leads the heavenly armies, when he comes to clean out this earth of all wickedness. The Apostle Paul gives us a discription of this War of the great Day of God the Almighty at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 where we read: “This takes into account that is righteous on Gods part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the lord Jesus from heaven with his powerfull angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news of our lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the lord and from the glory of his strength, at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.”
In the Revelation account at chapter 16:14 we are told about this War of 'the great day of God the Almighty' in these words: “They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the War of the great day of God the Almighty.” Then at Revelation 19:19 this further information is supplied: “And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against him who sat on the horse and against his army.” {Just a brief note on the armies of the kings of the earth!} Are not those armies made up of this Worlds so-called, Christains? Yes! Of course they are! We've already had two of the most bloody Wars in our century alone since the year 1914, and those Wars was made up of this Worlds Christians, was they not? So rather than being lovers of Jehovah's word the Bible, and footstep followers of his Son; they prove that, at this time, that in actuality, they are followers of satan the devil and they are doing his will, rather than the will of Jehovah God, because they are going against Jehovah's will by killing their own Brothers and Sisters of other Nations, because Jehovah directed them, through his Son to “Love their neighbors as themseves.” {Matthew 5:43–48} {Romans 12:17–21} So, according to those scriptures, the Bible was clearly against their taking the course that they did! When have this Worlds Christians ever failed to pick up their guns under the command of Worldy Politicians, and go off and wage war with their neighbors of surrounding Nations? They have never failed to do that! Not ever! So, at the arrival of Armageddon they will be in for a very serious shock! A very serious shock indeed!
Now we have already learned about the outcome of this war in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 but there is yet something else that foretells the final outcome of this war. {Revelation 16:16 – 13-21}
Revelation 19:17-21 (New American Standard Bible)
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.The Prophet Jeremiah also adds a little something, that is a reference to this great war fought by the Christ and his angels.
At Jeremiah 25:33 we find this information concerning these ones who are eaten by the birds of heaven: “And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried, {because they have been eaten by the birds of heaven} As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.” My, what a terrible fate awaits those who do not obey the good news about the Christ!Up to this point we have seen that it is Jesus who fights this War of the great day of God the Almighty at Armage
ddon, and why not, wasn't he the one with 'all authority' on this earth to do this fighting, and wasn't he the one 'appointed' by God for this very purpose? Speaking about this appointment, we are told by Paul, this: “Because he has set a day in which he purpose to judge the inhabit earth in righteousness by a man, whom he has APPOINTED, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.” So, Jesus laid down his very life to do this clean-up on the earth at Armageddon, because he was appointed for that very purpose, among other things, and since he had ALL AUTHORITY on earth to do that,we can be assured, that since he held that authority on earth, he also held that authority in heaven, according to his own words at Matthew 28:18 where he himself stated: “ALL AUTHORITY has been given me, in HEAVEN and ON EARTH!” So, we can firmly believe that Michael was Christ Jesus, there is absolutely no doubt at all about that, not in my mind at any rate!This war of the great Day of God the Almighty was not the only War that was to be fought by the Christ, because Jesus was the one who would eventually throw satan the devil into the abyss. We learn about that in Revevelation 20:1-3! Note the following:
Revelation 20
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. Next we learn this:
Revelation 20:7-10 (New American Standard Bible)
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.Now, the words of Jesus at Matthew 25:41 are fulfilled: “Be on your way from me you who have been cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Now in that verse of scripture, Jesus showed his ALL AUTHORITY ON EARTH by passing the death sentence on those goat-like individuals, so when Michael threw satan out of the Heavens, it had to be Christ Jesus who did that because he was the only one mentioned that possessed that authority, he was the only one mentioned as to being appointed. Nowhere in scripture do we find it saying, that someone other than the Christ,called Michael received any appointment by Jehovah, and nowhere in scripture do we find anyone called Michael receiving ALL AUTHORITY from Jehovah!
It was Jesus who died and was resurrected! He was the one who laid down his precious perfect human life to take away the sin of the World; so he earned the privilege of cleaning out the invisible spirit realm where his Father resides. He earned the privilege of cleaning out this earth, and he earned the privilege of finally throwing the devil and his demons into the lake of fire, destroying them forever. Michael, if he was not Christ Jesus never earned the privilege of cleaning out the heavenly spirit realm! No! Michael Has to be Christ Jesus! There is just no way around that! No way at all!
We all know that the Bible has not a lot to say about Michael as in, him being appointed for anything, or given any authority, but it does say that the Christ was appointed, and it does say that the Christ was given 'all authority in heaven'. The only noteable thing that Michael was foretold to do, is written for us at Revelation 12:7–17, and if one reads that scriture IN CONTEXT it proves that Jesus was the archangel, Michael! Read it out of context and you'll quite likely come up with the idea that Jesus was not Michael.
We know that Jesus was Jehovah's military commander, his commander in chief, as it were, because he leads the armies of the heavens at Armageddon. Michael, if he was not Jehovah's military commander, not his commander in chief, not 'appointed', nor given any 'authority', why is he found to be ousting satan and his demons from the heavenly spirit realm, if he was not Christ Jesus? It was, as I have shown, Christ Jesus who had received those things, so he was the ONLY ONE who had the exclusive right to throw satan and his demons from the invisible heavens, so Michael Had to be Christ Jesus! There is simply no way around that!
Has Jehovah all of a sudden put someone else in the seat of the Christ? Now, I don't believe that could ever be true, so why should any of you?
In conclusion then , I would like to direct everyones attention to the scripture at Numbers 21: 4-9 where we learn that the Israelites was speaking against God and Mose, and for that complaining Jehovah sent serpents among them. Some was bitten and killed by those serpents. Jehovah, though, made the way out for them to be cured of those serpent bites, for by fixing their gaze on the serpent on the pole, the Israelites who had been bitten was cured of that bite and they lived! Jesus made reference to that account in Numbers, when he stated the following at John 3:14,15: “And just as Moses LIFTED UP the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be LIFTED UP, that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.”
This entire World has been bitten by that 'original serpent, the one called devil and satan' and anyone that wishes to be cured from that bite, will be cured by fixing their gaze on the Christ now, and since the first Century, glorified and seated at the right hand of his Father, in control of the Holy Spirit; the medicine that is now required to gain a cure from that bite! {1 John 5:19} {Revelation 12:9} {Acts 2:33} {@ Corinthians 4:3,4}
My belief is, that now, I have LIFTED UP the Son of Man and put him in the office that is exclusively, and rightfully, his, because he is quite definitely Michael the Archangel! While I do that, some of you will try to remove him from that office by teaching that he is not Michael the Archangel. Really, should you be doing that? Do you not wish to be cured of that serpent – bite and gain everlasting life?? Texas!
Hi Texas,
The reason that folk cannot be convinced as it is not written.
Get over it.We are people of the Word, not the Watchtower.
Texas
What is the point? What if Michael and Jesus were one and the same, then what?
You have lifted up Jesus, and put him in the office? I'm going to spare you to tell you what I think.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2009,07:31) Hi Texas,
The reason that folk cannot be convinced as it is not written.
Get over it.We are people of the Word, not the Watchtower.
Nick!
Once again! They are not Watchtower teachings! They are Bible teachings! Did you not read all of the scriptures that I cited? Was the Bible written by the Watchtower Society? I don't think so Nick, I don't think so! And you are absolutely correct, you are 'people of this World'! That is the main reason why you don't understand the Bible! {John 14:15-17} So, 'get over it Nick, get over it' And I clearly showed you, that it is written!Texas!Texas
Why not give us the whole scripture, it makes it easier to follow you.
Try clicking on, http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.c….1&t=KJVGeorg
Hi Texas,
You have cited many scripture and glued them together with logic as if that showed truth.
But you have not found it written even once in scripture.
Faithfulness to the Word demands you drop itQuote (Cindy @ April 25 2009,10:06) Texas What is the point? What if Michael and Jesus were one and the same, then what?
You have lifted up Jesus, and put him in the office? I'm going to spare you to tell you what I think.Georg
Georg!
I feel that it is fairly safe to say, that I already know what you think! Well, I did show in that article that Michael and Jesus was one and the same person, so, I showed those who do not believe that, that their reasoning is seriously flawed! That was the point of the entire article, to show up the Religious liars on this Board, and expose them all for what they really are! Liars! TexasHi Texas,
Weak human reasoning was never the means God wanted us to rely on to grasp the sacred words.
Let scripture speak and sit at the feet of the Master to learn.
He never said what you say.The Spirit reminds us of the words of Jesus.[Jn16]
Texas
On this one I have to side with Nick, you haven't proven a thing.
Don't look now, your love is showing again.Georg
To bring Jesus down to the level of an Angel is not wise to do. He is the Son of God. brought forth from the Father. He then emptied Himself for us to save human kind. Then in John 17:5 He took back that glory that He had before the world was.
Also to call others on the board liars? Jesus thought us not to judge others.
Now notice this is not Georg but His Wife IreneHi texas,
Is everyone who does not agree with you on things not taught in the scriptures a LIAR by your definition?Seems an odd attitude for a Christian
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2009,14:09) Hi texas,
Is everyone who does not agree with you on things not taught in the scriptures a LIAR by your definition?Seems an odd attitude for a Christian
Yes, some will never learn. I find it degrading to put Christ down to be an Angel. He created all, and that includes the Angels. Christ is and always has been the Son of Jehovah God.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2009,14:09) Hi texas,
Is everyone who does not agree with you on things not taught in the scriptures a LIAR by your definition?Seems an odd attitude for a Christian
Nick!
Have you noticed? I always supply SCRIPTURE to back up what I'm saying, so my estimation, according to that, is, anyone who does not believe THE SCRIPTURES is a liar, and the Bible itself says that, so, what REALLY IS your beef? Everything I teach, is what the Bible itself teaches, and, you know what? I really believe that you know that, that is really the reason for your beef! You just can't stand to know that you are wrong! {Romans 3:4} {1 John 2:4,22}Texas!Hi texas,
Only JWs hold this belief because it is not written.
Not once is Jesus called an angel.Not once is Jesus said to be an archangel.
Nowhere is Jesus called Michael.
These are the proofs you would need to find if you expect any sort of possible credence
We do not accept that inference and logic applied to scripture improve it and release new truths.Find it written first
I don't feel like it now, but later, I'll insert the actual scriptural reasons why many believe Michael is another name for Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2009,10:41) Hi texas,
Only JWs hold this belief because it is not written.
Not once is Jesus called an angel.Not once is Jesus said to be an archangel.
Nowhere is Jesus called Michael.
These are the proofs you would need to find if you expect any sort of possible credence
We do not accept that inference and logic applied to scripture improve it and release new truths.Find it written first
Nick!
You're correct, 'not once is Jesus called and angel!' Might that be because Jesus was a Perfect human being while he walked this earth, so that would be the reason he was never referred to as such? But what type of life form did Jesus have before he came to this earth Nick? Was he not a powerful spirit angel while he resided in heaven with his Father? Now the Bible says 'To which of the angels has Jehovah ever said the following: “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? {Hebrews 1:13} Who was it that was supposed to sit at the right hand of his Father? Now Matthew 26:64 tells us this: “Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it, Yet I say to you men, From henceforth you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Hows that for inference and logic Nick? Will that do you? Probably not! But it does it for Jehovah, so who do you think you are? Are you someone very special that you can over-rule what Jehovah has had penned in his Holy word the Bible? Now, why don't I believe that? Texas!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
