- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,05:51) Hi CA,
So you will show where in Acts your infant baptisms occurred?
Go read Acts 2:38ffGo read the account of Cornelius in Acts 10
Go read the account of the Philippian jailer in Acts 16
These accounts can be found in the written history of Acts. But even if they didn't you would still be bound to find the full apostolic message, some of which was not written as the Scriptures clearly testify.
Hi CA,
So where in Acts 2.38ff are infants to be baptised?
Peter is calling for repentance and they cannot repent.The jailer and his family were baptised. Are you ASSUMING some of them might have been infants?
Let the little children come to me …..but helpless infants cannot comeQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,06:15) Hi CA,
So where in Acts 2.38ff are infants to be baptised?
Peter is calling for repentance and they cannot repent.The jailer and his family were baptised. Are you ASSUMING some of them might have been infants?
Let the little children come to me …..but helpless infants cannot come
Neither could the invalid who was let down through the roof by his friends. Yet his sins were forgiven.You argue from a false premise that assumes that the Bible is written to answer in itself definitively these questions. But at best we will disagree. I could answer you more specifically. But I already know where this will go.
You have to deal with your fallacy of Sola Scriptura. You haven't done so.
Please do so.
Hi CA,
So the man let down through the roof of Jesus's house in Capernaum needed forgiveness and obtained it.
Do infants need forgiveness?Why do you offer us verse when you have no foundational faith in scripture?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 09 2009,00:38) Circumcision is ENTRANCE INTO the covenant people of God. As is Christian baptism.
Circumcision is a sign of the covenant with Abraham and his descendants. His “descendants” include those males brought from a foreigner with money.I do not see baptism as just a sign since it is done for repentance and to receive the Holy Spirit.
If baptism was just a sign I would see your point.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,08:11) Hi CA,
So the man let down through the roof of Jesus's house in Capernaum needed forgiveness and obtained it.
Do infants need forgiveness?Why do you offer us verse when you have no foundational faith in scripture?
Hi CA:Yes, please tell us what sins and infant has committed?
If you can't, then that also shatters what the Catholic church teaches about “original sin”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,08:41) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 09 2009,00:38) Circumcision is ENTRANCE INTO the covenant people of God. As is Christian baptism.
Circumcision is a sign of the covenant with Abraham and his descendants. His “descendants” include those males brought from a foreigner with money.I do not see baptism as just a sign since it is done for repentance and to receive the Holy Spirit.
If baptism was just a sign I would see your point.
You are not far.Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 09 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,08:11) Hi CA,
So the man let down through the roof of Jesus's house in Capernaum needed forgiveness and obtained it.
Do infants need forgiveness?Why do you offer us verse when you have no foundational faith in scripture?
Hi CA:Yes, please tell us what sins and infant has committed?
If you can't, then that also shatters what the Catholic church teaches about “original sin”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Infants have no personal sin.They do however contract the effects of the sin of Adam. In baptism the child is given the Holy Spirit.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 09 2009,10:20) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 09 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,08:11) Hi CA,
So the man let down through the roof of Jesus's house in Capernaum needed forgiveness and obtained it.
Do infants need forgiveness?Why do you offer us verse when you have no foundational faith in scripture?
Hi CA:Yes, please tell us what sins and infant has committed?
If you can't, then that also shatters what the Catholic church teaches about “original sin”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Infants have no personal sin.They do however contract the effects of the sin of Adam. In baptism the child is given the Holy Spirit.
Hi CA:The children of Christian parents are under the law of their parents. The parents or, parent if only one is saved, have the Holy Spirit, and it is their responsibility to bring up the child and teach them the Word of God.
Quote Eph 6:1 ¶ Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.When children grow to the stage that they are able to decide for themselves whether or not they choose to obey the Lord, then they can come to God with a repentant heart through the Lord and receive the Holy Spirit. Until then, it isn't necessary for them to have the Holy Spirit. They are under the law of their parents.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 09 2009,11:13) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 09 2009,10:20) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 09 2009,09:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,08:11) Hi CA,
So the man let down through the roof of Jesus's house in Capernaum needed forgiveness and obtained it.
Do infants need forgiveness?Why do you offer us verse when you have no foundational faith in scripture?
Hi CA:Yes, please tell us what sins and infant has committed?
If you can't, then that also shatters what the Catholic church teaches about “original sin”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Infants have no personal sin.They do however contract the effects of the sin of Adam. In baptism the child is given the Holy Spirit.
Hi CA:The children of Christian parents are under the law of their parents. The parents or, parent if only one is saved, have the Holy Spirit, and it is their responsibility to bring up the child and teach them the Word of God.
Quote Eph 6:1 ¶ Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.When children grow to the stage that they are able to decide for themselves whether or not they choose to obey the Lord, then they can come to God with a repentant heart through the Lord and receive the Holy Spirit. Until then, it isn't necessary for them to have the Holy Spirit. They are under the law of their parents.
Love in Christ,
Marty
This is your own gospel and it is a false one.
“Until then, it isn't necessary for them to have the Holy Spirit.”
You didn't read this explicitly in Scripture. You have deduced it using your own subjective interpretation. Eph. 6:1-3 doesn't say what you are trying to make it say. I simply commanded children to obey their parents. I don't have to go very deep to unravel this. You argue that infants can't believe and such. Well, infants can't “obey” their parents either.
Your view is all washed up…
You should try asking the Church Jesus founded what it did and meant.
Typo:
“I simply commanded children to obey their parents.”
should read:
“It simply commanded children to obey their parents.”
“It”
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
I hear that is what the Baptist sects teach as well but I believe I hear a different story from Paul, who you call a Saint. Paul teaches that when baptism a person is baptized their old corrupt sprit which is corrupt is put to death and they are given a new spirit that is like Jesus in true righteousness and holiness. This seems to be more like the time Jesus commanded the blind man to go to the Pool of Siloam and wash before the man’s eyes were opened.
Still, before this miracle occurs you must set your foot on the path of righteousness by deciding to change your ways and seek to become righteous as God is righteous. Without faith being immersed is useless and thus no real sign of any inward grace.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,16:49) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
I hear that is what the Baptist sects teach as well but I believe I hear a different story from Paul, who you call a Saint. Paul teaches that when baptism a person is baptized their old corrupt sprit which is corrupt is put to death and they are given a new spirit that is like Jesus in true righteousness and holiness. This seems to be more like the time Jesus commanded the blind man to go to the Pool of Siloam and wash before the man’s eyes were opened.
Still, before this miracle occurs you must set your foot on the path of righteousness by deciding to change your ways and seek to become righteous as God is righteous. Without faith being immersed is useless and thus no real sign of any inward grace.
Says who? You?Give me a break.
Stop trying to tell the apostles, fathers, and doctors about the faith that was entrusted to them and that they died preserving.
You really have some nerve.
Never forget Korah and his rebellion.
Catholic Apologist wrote:
Quote Says who? You?
I stated that I was repeating what Paul stated and then I went on to state what I believed it meant. As for what Paul stated it is in the book of Romans chapter 6. The part about faith being necessary is a common theme of his teachings.
Catholic Apologist wrote:
Quote Stop trying to tell the apostles, fathers, and doctors about the faith that was entrusted to them and that they died preserving.
Besides for the fact that Paul is an apostle I get the feeling you have a hang-up with worshipping those in authority. Paul did not do that.
Galatians 2:2-6(NIV) reads:
Quote I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.
Catholic Apologist wrote:
Quote Never forget Korah and his rebellion.
I agree that we are to obey the authorities God places over us but we should not follow them into rebellion even if they are a priest as Korah was.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 09 2009,17:23) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,16:49) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
I hear that is what the Baptist sects teach as well but I believe I hear a different story from Paul, who you call a Saint. Paul teaches that when baptism a person is baptized their old corrupt sprit which is corrupt is put to death and they are given a new spirit that is like Jesus in true righteousness and holiness. This seems to be more like the time Jesus commanded the blind man to go to the Pool of Siloam and wash before the man’s eyes were opened.
Still, before this miracle occurs you must set your foot on the path of righteousness by deciding to change your ways and seek to become righteous as God is righteous. Without faith being immersed is useless and thus no real sign of any inward grace.
Says who? You?Give me a break.
Stop trying to tell the apostles, fathers, and doctors about the faith that was entrusted to them and that they died preserving.
You really have some nerve.
Never forget Korah and his rebellion.
I am always amazed that of the ignorance and daring remarks that you have made here on a Christian site. An Infant can't speak and you want us to believe that it is a wise decision to Baptize, or should I say sprinkle an Infant. An infant has no sin, the only thing that an infant has like all of us is the dead sentence, and not an original sin, that is nonsense, another false teaching of the Catholic Church. Just like the moral sin when you not go to Church on Sundays. It is you who has some nerve to say what you do. Be for real, if you can!!!!!!!A person receives the Holy spirit at Baptism according to Scripture, and if you would ever experience that, you would agree with most of us. We did and it was amazing. Come out of Her my people Rev.18:4 says. And Math. 15:9 tells us that if we keep a doctrine of a man, which the Trinity is, you worship in vain.
You have been warned.
(shaking head) Wake up.
Peace and Lv e IreneQuote (georg @ Oct. 09 2009,19:15) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 09 2009,17:23) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2009,16:49) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
I hear that is what the Baptist sects teach as well but I believe I hear a different story from Paul, who you call a Saint. Paul teaches that when baptism a person is baptized their old corrupt sprit which is corrupt is put to death and they are given a new spirit that is like Jesus in true righteousness and holiness. This seems to be more like the time Jesus commanded the blind man to go to the Pool of Siloam and wash before the man’s eyes were opened.
Still, before this miracle occurs you must set your foot on the path of righteousness by deciding to change your ways and seek to become righteous as God is righteous. Without faith being immersed is useless and thus no real sign of any inward grace.
Says who? You?Give me a break.
Stop trying to tell the apostles, fathers, and doctors about the faith that was entrusted to them and that they died preserving.
You really have some nerve.
Never forget Korah and his rebellion.
I am always amazed that of the ignorance and daring remarks that you have made here on a Christian site. An Infant can't speak and you want us to believe that it is a wise decision to Baptize, or should I say sprinkle an Infant. An infant has no sin, the only thing that an infant has like all of us is the dead sentence, and not an original sin, that is nonsense, another false teaching of the Catholic Church. Just like the moral sin when you not go to Church on Sundays. It is you who has some nerve to say what you do. Be for real, if you can!!!!!!!A person receives the Holy spirit at Baptism according to Scripture, and if you would ever experience that, you would agree with most of us. We did and it was amazing. Come out of Her my people Rev.18:4 says. And Math. 15:9 tells us that if we keep a doctrine of a man, which the Trinity is, you worship in vain.
You have been warned.
(shaking head) Wake up.
Peace and Lv e Irene
Early Teachings on Infant BaptismAlthough many Protestant traditions baptize babies, Baptists—and “Bible churches” in the Baptist tradition—insist that baptism is only for those who have come to faith. Nowhere in the New Testament, they point out, do we read of infants being baptized.
On the other hand, nowhere do we read of children raised in believing households reaching the age of reason and then being baptized. The only explicit baptism accounts in the Bible involve converts from Judaism or paganism. For children of believers there is no explicit mention of baptism—either in infancy or later.
This poses a problem for Baptists and Bible Christians: On what basis do they require children of believers to be baptized at all? Given the silence of the New Testament, why not assume Christian baptism is only for adult converts?
This, of course, would be contrary to historical Christian practice. But so is rejecting infant baptism. As we will see, there is no doubt that the early Church practiced infant baptism; and no Christian objections to this practice were ever voiced until the Reformation.
The New Testament itself, while it does not explicitly say when (or whether) believers should have their children baptized, is not silent on the subject.
Luke 18:15–16 tells us that “they were bringing even infants” to Jesus; and he himself related this to the kingdom of God: “Let the children come to me
. . . for to such belongs the kingdom of God.”When Baptists speak of “bringing someone to Jesus,” they mean leading him to faith. But Jesus says “even infants” can be “brought” to him. Even Baptists don’t claim their practice of “dedicating” babies does this. The fact is, the Bible gives us no way of bringing anyone to Jesus apart from baptism.
Thus Peter declared, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children” (Acts 2:38–39).
The apostolic Church baptized whole “households” (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16), a term encompassing children and infants as well as servants. While these texts do not specifically mention—nor exclude—infants, the very use of the term “households” indicates an understanding of the family as a unit. Even one believing parent in a household makes the children and even the unbelieving spouse “holy” (1 Cor. 7:14).
Does this mean unbelieving spouses should be baptized? Of course not. The kingdom of God is not theirs; they cannot be “brought to Christ” in their unbelief. But infants have no such impediment. The kingdom is theirs, Jesus says, and they should be brought to him; and this means baptism.
Baptism is the Christian equivalent of circumcision, or “the circumcision of Christ”: “In him you were also circumcised with . . . the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col. 2:11–12). Thus, like circumcision, baptism can be given to children as well as adults. The difference is that circumcision was powerless to save (Gal. 5:6, 6:15), but “aptism . . . now saves you” (1 Pet. 3:21).
The first explicit evidence of children of believing households being baptized comes from the early Church—where infant baptism was uniformly
upheld and regarded as apostolic. In fact, the only reported controversy on the subject was a third-century debate whether or not to delay baptism until the eighth day after birth, like its Old Testament equivalent, circumcision! (See quotation from Cyprian, below; compare Leviticus 12:2–3.)Consider, too, that Fathers raised in Christian homes (such as Irenaeus) would hardly have upheld infant baptism as apostolic if their own baptisms had been deferred until the age of reason.
For example, infant baptism is assumed in Irenaeus’ writings below (since he affirms both that regeneration happens in baptism, and also that Jesus came so even infants could be regenerated). Since he was born in a Christian home in Smyrna around the year 140, this means he was probably baptized around 140. He was also probably baptized by the bishop of Smyrna at that time—Polycarp, a personal disciple of the apostle John, who had died only a few decades before.
Irenaeus
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]
).“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Hippolytus
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 64:5).
Gregory of Nazianz
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).
“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly , if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).
John Chrysostom
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
Augustine
“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
“Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born” (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).
“By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).
Council of Carthage V
“Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [North African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians” (Canon 7 [A.D. 401]).
Council of Mileum II
“[W]hoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . let him be anathema [excommunicated]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration” (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Br
om, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
